Saved at birth? Part 2

[Jarthur001]

When all else fails...play the martyr card.

That's the spirit.

edited...not worth it...

Only God is worth it.

 

[PK]

Who made Cain?
When did God 1st learn that Cain would kill?

Of course God knew from the beginning that he would kill his brother but God gave him a chance to repent.

The key to this is found in Gen. 4:6-7,11

Cain had anger and sin in his life and God confronted him about it. Cain made the choice to not take the sacrific God would provide (VS 7). God was saying, "If you take what I have provided then you will do well but if not than sin lieth at the door".
Also, Notice in verse 11 were God stated that "now he was cursed". He wasn't cursed before the fall. Cetainly to be non-elected would mean that you are cursed?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello PK,

Of course God knew from the beginning that he would kill his brother but God gave him a chance to repent.

Really? Passage please.

But as you well know, even if this be true, God knew Cain would NEVER place his faith in Christ. God knew that if Cain was offered grace, that Cain pride found in his sin nature would not allow him to take hold. God knew all this as God made Cain, and God made Cain just that very way.

So..it changes nothing does it?

The key to this is found in Gen. 4:6-7,11

You have two events here. One is "the offering".

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?


Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

As seen in verse 7, God said Cain could "do well". But remember God also knew Cain would not. God knew sin would control Cain before Cain was asked. In fact, God knew Cain would be controlled by sin when God made Cain. And then..God made Cain.

But notice this is toward "the offering". The next one is murder.

Cain had anger and sin in his life and God confronted him about it.

When did God learn this?

Cain made the choice to not take the sacrific God would provide (VS 7).

I agree. For Cain was controlled by sin, and God knew this before Cain made that choice.

God was saying, "If you take what I have provided then you will do well but if not than sin lieth at the door".

I agree. But the sin nature that would control Cain was in him from the fall. Cain may not have known this, But God knew sin was in his heart. When the door was set before Cain, the sin in him was expressed by taking the door.

Also, Notice in verse 11 were God stated that "now he was cursed".

Check your Greek on this PK. Your placing to much in the English word "now".

He wasn't cursed before the fall.

Of course not. He was not born before the fall. But after the fall, all men take on this sin nature, because of the fall.

Cetainly to be non-elected would mean that you are cursed?

Indeed.

 

[PK]

Hello PK,


Really? Passage please.

But as you well know, even if this be true, God knew Cain would NEVER place his faith in Christ. God knew that if Cain was offered grace, that Cain pride found in his sin nature would not allow him to take hold. God knew all this as God made Cain, and God made Cain just that very way.

So..it changes nothing does it?


You have two events here. One is "the offering".


As seen in verse 7, God said Cain could "do well". But remember God also knew Cain would not. God knew sin would control Cain before Cain was asked. In fact, God knew Cain would be controlled by sin when God made Cain. And then..God made Cain.

But notice this is toward "the offering". The next one is murder.


When did God learn this?



I agree. For Cain was controlled by sin, and God knew this before Cain made that choice.



I agree. But the sin nature that would control Cain was in him from the fall. Cain may not have known this, But God knew sin was in his heart. When the door was set before Cain, the sin in him was expressed by taking the door.



Check your Greek on this PK. Your placing to much in the English word "now".


Of course not. He was not born before the fall. But after the fall, all men take on this sin nature, because of the fall.


Indeed.

So, how big is your God and why do YOU place limitations on Him? Is God not big enough to save Cain? Can had the chance to repent and didn't. God did not make Cain so that one day they could just go through the motions. If God made Cain to die and go to hell, then why even give him a chance to repent?

 

[Jarthur001]

So, how big is your God and why do YOU place limitations on Him? Is God not big enough to save Cain? Can had the chance to repent and didn't. God did not make Cain so that one day they could just go through the motions. If God made Cain to die and go to hell, then why even give him a chance to repent?

Hello PK,

I understand your concern and why you ask. I'll try to address this the best I can.

You ask..

So, how big is your God and why do YOU place limitations on Him?

I am no one to even think of placing limits on our great God. I can only go with what the Bible says as to what is the very nature of God. I must take Him for His word, even though I do not understand all things. God does not change...this is said in His Word. We both will agree with this. I have no reason to think God will change for His very word says He will not change. I must count on this truth to always hold true, for if not my God may change and no longer love me. This cannot be the case.

It is the truth of Gods word that I can count on. If God says something will happen, or says something has happened, it must be true. If God says some go to Hell, this I must believe. We must also add, .....I am forced to believe that God made every single person, just as they are. He did not look at me after I was born and say wow.."I had no idea you would look like that."

He also knew of my last sin before He made me. He knows the next sin I will make. He knew I would one day have my eyes open to the truth of His holy Word, for He made me and placed me in a town of the church that my mother and father took me to hear the gospel story. I did not ask for this good church, nor my father who was a believer, nor did I ask for a mother that would pray for me, but God gave all of this to me. This is unlike some who have lived and died without hearing the good news.

Therefore God made Cain just the way he was, and like me God knowing full well that Cain would never believe. That you cannot deny.

This places no limits on God. It believes God is true in all of His nature and not just which is love.

Is God not big enough to save Cain?

Indeed He is. Did He? No.
God has the power to save each person in the world. But...He has not.

You must admit that all men are not going to heaven. You must also believe that God will one day take all that believe to Heaven. If Gods goal was to save all of mankind from Hell, there was only one point in time when this could be done. If Gods goal was to save all mankind, He could have saved all of them before Cain was born and then stopped all births. This would have meet His goal.

But He did not...did He? Each day 1000s of people die and go to Hell. The longer Christ waits, the more people go to Hell. What is God waiting on? He is waitng on the last elect to believe. At that time is church is full. He knows who the last one is.

Can had the chance to repent and didn't. God did not make Cain so that one day they could just go through the motions.

We all are asked to come to Christ. None come to Christ, therefore God elects.

The power of sin controls man so that he will always say no to God, save for the open of the eyes by Holy Spirit. To claim this is only going through the motions, has no Bible support. We are told to never sin, but show me a soul who has not.

If God made Cain to die and go to hell, then why even give him a chance to repent?

The way you answer this, will define your doctrine. Some will word it like this...

God made all of mankind, knowing full well that their soul would be controlled by their lust and pride found in their own sin nature, and this control had such power to make them see sin as the better choice over God's will, were it not that power of God placed on them by electing some to open their eyes from the blind state they are in, all would go to Hell.

Still the call of whosoever will, goes out to all. The point...no one comes on their own

 

[skypair]

JArthur,

I think what PK is trying to say is that God cannot "so love the world" if He "hates" (as you claim He does with Esau) and "fore-condemns" most of them.

Do you not see that contradiction with scripture?

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

JArthur,

I think what PK is trying to say is that God cannot "so love the world" if He "hates" (as you claim He does with Esau) and "fore-condemns" most of them.

Do you not see that contradiction with scripture?

skypair

Skypair,

I understand what PK is saying and always have.

I see no contradiction. One thing I will not do, is change the meaning to what I think it should read. However, in this case there is no need to even think about it. It is clear. In fact you use such wording all the time.

I feel it is wrong for you to say God cannot do, what it is clear He does based on the truth of His Word, not on how you see God.

 

[PK]

JArthur,

I think what PK is trying to say is that God cannot "so love the world" if He "hates" (as you claim He does with Esau) and "fore-condemns" most of them.

Do you not see that contradiction with scripture?

skypair

You are correct! Election makes God's blood no good. Which came first Election of you, Jarthur001, or the the plan of salvation? Prove this to me from the scriptures. God elected a plan not specific people. Not all of Abraham's seed was elected to be the bearers of God's saving plan. So, did God unconditionally elect Jacob unto salvation and pass up Esau? Here and everywhere else in the Bible where you have election and predestination, it is not to salvation. No where in my Bible does it say that God chose me to go to heaven and my son to hell. This is not salvation here. This is a reference to service. Verse 12 of chapter 9 says "the elder shall serve the younger". Malachi was written a 1,000 years after these two men lived. God did not say this before they were born, it came after one went against God because he didn't want what God wanted to give him.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Is From The HCSB

You are correct! Election makes God's blood no good. Which came first Election of you, Jarthur001, or the the plan of salvation? Prove this to me from the scriptures. God elected a plan not specific people. Not all of Abraham's seed was elected to be the bearers of God's saving plan. So, did God unconditionally elect Jacob unto salvation and pass up Esau? Here and everywhere else in the Bible where you have election and predestination, it is not to salvation. No where in my Bible does it say that God chose me to go to heaven and my son to hell. This is not salvation here. This is a reference to service. Verse 12 of chapter 9 says "the elder shall serve the younger". Malachi was written a 1,000 years after these two men lived. God did not say this before they were born, it came after one went against God because he didn't want what God wanted to give him.

Your errors are too numerous to keep up with . You're giving SP a run for the money !

"Election makes God's blood no good." What a ridiculous statement . Try Acts 20:28 on for size : "... shepherd the church of God which He bought with His own blood ."

God elected a plan , not specific people ? Another absurd remark . Of course He elected specific people . Try these verses and see how far out in left field you are .

2 Thess. 2:13 : "But we must always thank God for you , brothers loved by the Lord , because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth ."

2 Tim. 1:9 : "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling , not according to our works , but according to His own purpose and grace , which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began ."

Eph. 1:4,5, " for He chose us in Him , before the foundation of the world , to be holy and blameless in His sight . In love he predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself , according to His favor and will ,"

Eph. 1:11 : "In Him we were also made His inheritance , predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will "

Yes , God did indeed unconditionally elect Jacob unto salvation and bypassed Esau before either was born . See Romans 9:11-13 : " ( for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad , so that God's purpose according to election might stand ,not from works but from the One who calls ) she was told : The older will serve the younger . As it is written: Jacob I have loved , but Esau I have hated ."

You see PK , the Lord "shows mercy to whom he wills , and He hardens whom He wills ." ( Ro. 9:18 ) . The Lord makes one piece of pottery "for honor and another for dishonor." ( Ro.9:21 ) .

There are "objects of wrath ready for destruction." ( Ro.9:22 ) And there are "objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory." ( Ro. 9:23 ) .

Mull over these words from Holy Writ . There are many more where these came from . But you have no right to distort the meaning in order to match your sentiments .

 

[reformedbeliever]

Your errors are too numerous to keep up with . You're giving SP a run for the money !

"Election makes God's blood no good." What a ridiculous statement . Try Acts 20:28 on for size : "... shepherd the church of God which He bought with His own blood ."

God elected a plan , not specific people ? Another absurd remark . Of course He elected specific people . Try these verses and see how far out in left field you are .

2 Thess. 2:13 : "But we must always thank God for you , brothers loved by the Lord , because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth ."

2 Tim. 1:9 : "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling , not according to our works , but according to His own purpose and grace , which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began ."

Eph. 1:4,5, " for He chose us in Him , before the foundation of the world , to be holy and blameless in His sight . In love he predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself , according to His favor and will ,"

Eph. 1:11 : "In Him we were also made His inheritance , predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will "

Yes , God did indeed unconditionally elect Jacob unto salvation and bypassed Esau before either was born . See Romans 9:11-13 : " ( for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad , so that God's purpose according to election might stand ,not from works but from the One who calls ) she was told : The older will serve the younger . As it is written: Jacob I have loved , but Esau I have hated ."

You see PK , the Lord "shows mercy to whom he wills , and He hardens whom He wills ." ( Ro. 9:18 ) . The Lord makes one piece of pottery "for honor and another for dishonor." ( Ro.9:21 ) .

There are "objects of wrath ready for destruction." ( Ro.9:22 ) And there are "objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory." ( Ro. 9:23 ) .

Mull over these words from Holy Writ . There are many more where these came from . But you have no right to distort the meaning in order to match your sentiments .

Thank you Rippon. I get so tired trying to correct error. Sometimes I just feel like leaving it alone. Many of our brothers have done just that....... they don't post on these type of arguments anymore. I wonder what happened to some of them? Anyway, I just wanted to thank you and encourage you in your faithfulness to God and His Holy Scripture.

2 Timothy 4

"Preach the Word"
1. I solemnly charge {you} in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season {and} out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but {wanting} to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

 

[Rippon]

Thank you Rippon. I get so tired trying to correct error. Sometimes I just feel like leaving it alone. Many of our brothers have done just that....... they don't post on these type of arguments anymore. I wonder what happened to some of them? Anyway, I just wanted to thank you and encourage you in your faithfulness to God and His Holy Scripture.

You're welcome RB . You are an encouragement to me as well . You have picked up the slack on many occasions when I did not feel like refuting the contentions of non-Cals . I don't have the energy to chase after them all , so I let a lot slide . His truth will prevail regardless .

 

[pinoybaptist]

Thank you Rippon. I get so tired trying to correct error. Sometimes I just feel like leaving it alone. Many of our brothers have done just that....... they don't post on these type of arguments anymore. I wonder what happened to some of them? Anyway, I just wanted to thank you and encourage you in your faithfulness to God and His Holy Scripture.

You're welcome RB . You are an encouragement to me as well . You have picked up the slack on many occasions when I did not feel like refuting the contentions of non-Cals . I don't have the energy to chase after them all , so I let a lot slide . His truth will prevail regardless .

Well, I've become a lurker in these kinds of forums nowadays, thanks to the arrival of some non-cals here whose mission is to paint Calvinists and those adhering to the Doctrine of Grace as spawns of Satan trying to lead Christ's sheep off the cliff (har ! har! har !), one in particular says I am trying to lead him to damnation.(HAR!!HAR!!HARR!!).

 

[J.D.]

Thank you Rippon. I get so tired trying to correct error. Sometimes I just feel like leaving it alone. Many of our brothers have done just that....... they don't post on these type of arguments anymore. I wonder what happened to some of them? Anyway, I just wanted to thank you and encourage you in your faithfulness to God and His Holy Scripture.

2 Timothy 4

"Preach the Word"
1. I solemnly charge {you} in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season {and} out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but {wanting} to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Npet's been banned or something. I don't know why. Remember Calvibaptist? He got tired of it, and he's busy in his church. Me, I'm tired of it too but mainly I don't have the time I used to have to go back and forth, with increased workload and taking classes too. But remember, God reserved to Himself 7,000 men that had not bowed the knee to Baal!

 

[webdog]

But remember, God reserved to Himself 7,000 men that had not bowed the knee to Baal!

Oh please! I'm sure they were all calvinists. You guys really need to get over yourselves! Pride comes before a fall.
__________________

 

[Dale-c]

The funny thing is that I started this thread on July 3 of this year to discuss a topic of hyper calvinism, ie, whether or not the elect are saved at birth, regardless of whether they repent or not.

I belive that no one is actually saved until they believe, even though if they are elect of God they will someday believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

Npet's been banned or something. I don't know why. Remember Calvibaptist? He got tired of it, and he's busy in his church. Me, I'm tired of it too but mainly I don't have the time I used to have to go back and forth, with increased workload and taking classes too. But remember, God reserved to Himself 7,000 men that had not bowed the knee to Baal!

wow..i had no idea.

and how wd and SP can get away with character assassination is beyond me.

including calling people salvation as not....

I can think of 5 people right off the bat that WD has ran off.

Maybe I next....

God reserved to Himself 7,000 men that had not bowed the knee to Baal!

 

[webdog]

wow..i had no idea.

and how wd and SP can get away with character assassination is beyond me.

including calling people salvation as not....

I can think of 5 people right off the bat that WD has ran off.

Maybe I next....

God reserved to Himself 7,000 men that had not bowed the knee to Baal!

Your really one to talk, James. I haven't "ran off" anybody. Supply the names, or retract it. (voluntarily leaving because they don't want to debate against those willing is not a reason, either)

"Character assasination"? If I had a dollar for every time I have been told I serve "another god", I could buy the BB!

I also recall a time when you had a certain elderly preacher who opposes you thologically reported for threats against your life that was bogus. Class act, James. Still got the PM's if you need your memory refreshed...

 

[webdog]

God reserved to Himself 7,000 men that had not bowed the knee to Baal!

And THIS is not character assasination by calling out the salvation of those who aren't calvinists, that we are baal worshipers?

 

[pinoybaptist]

The funny thing is that I started this thread on July 3 of this year to discuss a topic of hyper calvinism, ie, whether or not the elect are saved at birth, regardless of whether they repent or not.

I belive that no one is actually saved until they believe, even though if they are elect of God they will someday believe.

Dale-C:

Bible says there is a book of life which the Author filled with the names of His people, and the writing or filling of these names was made in eternity past before the foundation of the world.

Bible also refers to Jesus Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, which means his blood was spilled in eternity past, and therefore for all intents and purposes, independent of events happening in time, the blood covered the sins of His people, specifically those whose names have been written in the book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

This is, I believe, how God justified His taking Enoch and Elijah into heaven before the cross, unless you believe there is a temporary holding place where the elect go in their unjustified state.

Therefore, all these adds up to unmerited favor, completely apart from any works, input, contribution. This salvation is eternal in scope, in origin, and in characted. All OF God, BY, God, and FROM God to the elect sinner. There are no demands made by the Creator from His creation, all glory belongs to Him, none to man, no conditions to be met, no results for meeting the condition.

This eternal salvation cannot be taken away by anyone, and in Christ, the saved is secure.

This salvation compasses everyone of God's elect, wherever they were born, whenever they were born, however they were born. It is not based on the elect's theology, doctrine, creed, race, tongue, kindred, and all those things that we have in this fallen world.

It is based entirely on God's mercy, God's decisions, and Christ's obedience and faith.

So, all the elect are saved at birth, because that is God's purpose for them, and He purposed that not for their glory but for His. All God's elect will be born in time, fallen since they are all part of Adam's race, dead in sin and trespasses here in time (but alive in Christ in the eternal sense), and all subject to the regeneration of God's Holy Spirit in God's own time, not theirs.

The MOST of the elect will believe here in time, but that belief has nothing to do with the eternal aspect of their salvation. Their belief and faith serves them here in time, not in eternity.

I think that to require that belief be an essential part of the eternal salvation wrought by Christ is to add human merit to a thoroughly Divine act.

Also, it limits the effect of Christ's finished work to only those that will believe, and since the teaching is that they believe THRU the gospel, then that further limits the scope of Christ's work to only those who will hear the gospel.

For those who do believe, the salvation they get to enjoy is for this world, in this time, and is therefore not the eternal salvation that Christ secured for them.

That timely salvation causes them to turn from their idols to the living God, teaches them to walk the narrow way, gives them thirst for God's word and ways.

Very nutshell, and not deserving of your scholarly mind (no disrespect or sarcasm intended), but I'm at work and use of the pc is limited.

Appreciate your even reading it.

 

[Amy.G]

The funny thing is that I started this thread on July 3 of this year to discuss a topic of hyper calvinism, ie, whether or not the elect are saved at birth, regardless of whether they repent or not.

I belive that no one is actually saved until they believe, even though if they are elect of God they will someday believe.

Wouldn't this mean that infants and babies that are still in the womb could not be saved since they are unable to understand and believe the gospel?