"Saved by Faith Alone"- Lutheran Church Visit

[Kris]

Does this mean what it really says?
We visited this church in which my sister and I grew up. They have a wonderful, godly group of people attending still.

The Pastor said they are saved by faith alone, and most people do not understand that. "If you believe in the Trinity, and what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross, then you are saved"

So they can do anything as long as they beleive?

If you really believe, out come the fruits (as I see it in that church) My online research hasn't been helpful really. Thanks

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Sounds to me as though that's the very premise of:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9 (e-Sword)

 

[J. Jump]

Eternal salvation is found in the faith of Jesus Christ's substitutionary death and shed blood on behalf of the payment for your sin. If you believe that you are saved according to Scripture. Nothing else needs to be or can be added to that simple salvation message.

 

[JFox1]

Does this mean what it really says?
We visited this church in which my sister and I grew up. They have a wonderful, godly group of people attending still.

The Pastor said they are saved by faith alone, and most people do not understand that. "If you believe in the Trinity, and what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross, then you are saved"

So they can do anything as long as they beleive?

If you really believe, out come the fruits (as I see it in that church) My online research hasn't been helpful really. Thanks

No, it's not a license to act like a jerk. It's not "I'm saved! Now I can do anything I want! I can lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc., because I am saved!" If your faith is genuine, it will produce works. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is God's gift. It is not by works, so that no one may boast; for we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God previously prepared for us so that we should live in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 Modern Language Bible aka New Berkeley Version. Although we can't earn our way to heaven, God still wants us to do good deeds.

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

I liked the Lutherians I knew. They seem to be a bit ritualistic, but the only real problem I saw was having female bishops and pastors not their view of the Gospel...

 

[J. Jump]

If your faith is genuine, it will produce works.

That is not a true statement. There are a number of people that have believed the good news of eternal salvation by grace through faith and not gone on to do good works, because of a lack of discipleship.

Good works are not a guarantee and Scripture tells us that in v. 10 of Ephesians 2, which you quoted.

"created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God previously prepared for us so that we should live in them."

We should live in the good works, but it's not a guarantee unfortunately.

 

[LeBuick]

That is not a true statement. There are a number of people that have believed the good news of eternal salvation by grace through faith and not gone on to do good works, because of a lack of discipleship.

Good works are not a guarantee and Scripture tells us that in v. 10 of Ephesians 2, which you quoted.

"created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God previously prepared for us so that we should live in them."

We should live in the good works, but it's not a guarantee unfortunately.

How do you read James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[J. Jump]

How do you read James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

That is a great question. And unfortunately most of Christendom twists the Scripture to make it fit the message of salvation by grace through faith.

These are two different messages contextually. We know via Romans, Ephesians and Acts that eternal salvation is based on Christ's works alone.

Therefore we know that James can not be talking about eternal salvation.

Most of Christendom says that if a person doesn't have good works then they weren't saved in the first place. But that's not what James said. James said that if they have faith and no works then the faith is dead (useless) not non-existent.

If you will go back to James 1 you will see that the context of James is not eternal salvation, but rather the salvation of the soul. They are two separate messages that the church has unfortunately tried to force together, but they just don't fit.

 

[Kris]

J.Jump What you are saying is interesting as I have never studied James really. I will begin tonight
Uncharteredspirit, I love the racoon ! That would be a really cute picture to download adjacent to your name so everyone could see it. Maybe that's not possible

Apparently, this church just preaches a simple message. You are saved thru faith in Jesus Christ dying on the cross to shed his blood for our sins. They talked alot about grace. Though I haven't attended in about 25 yrs, it was like I never left. They are ritualistic

Not to generalize, but these Lutherans appear to have alot of class. They will usually stay on topic without deviation with intrusive questions/judging your christian walk, and refrain from heated debates. I suspect this is a denominational trait.
Many of the folks attended this church with me years ago, and now have families of their own. They all seem so happy to be there. Thanks to all that responded :wavey: I am currently baptist but may consider switching.

 

[J. Jump]

Kris I pray God's blessings to you as you dig deeper into His AMAZING Scriptures!!! I sent you a PM that you might want to check out.

 

[JFox1]

That is a great question. And unfortunately most of Christendom twists the Scripture to make it fit the message of salvation by grace through faith.

These are two different messages contextually. We know via Romans, Ephesians and Acts that eternal salvation is based on Christ's works alone.

Therefore we know that James can not be talking about eternal salvation.

Most of Christendom says that if a person doesn't have good works then they weren't saved in the first place. But that's not what James said. James said that if they have faith and no works then the faith is dead (useless) not non-existent.

If you will go back to James 1 you will see that the context of James is not eternal salvation, but rather the salvation of the soul. They are two separate messages that the church has unfortunately tried to force together, but they just don't fit.

You said that most of Christiandom twisted the message. Which church(es) do have it right? What is the difference between eternal salvation and salvation of the soul? Being saved is like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Although Scripture supports OSAS, just as what you are describing, too many people use it as a license to sin. Many churches even teach it as such, but add, "But you really should do good", without adding any of the warnings and exhortations about the consequences of living such a life.

That's why I think that many people are going to be held accountable for teaching that we are all going to be the same, no matter what we do and that we will all rule and reign in his coming Kingdom and other fallacious doctrines.

 

[J. Jump]

Being saved is like being pregnant, you either are or you aren't.

But what happens is when people think they are saved they think that every part of them is saved, body, soul and spirit. And that is not the case.

When you are saved by grace through faith apart from works then your spirit is what is saved and then your statement is correct. It's like being pregnant either you are spiritually dead or you are spiritually alive. It's one or the other.

At the point of salvation God separates the light from the darkness just like He did in Genesis 1. This time He does it with the spirit and the soul. The spirit is made alive and is now in the Light and the soul remains in darkness. Hebrews 4:12 says that the soul and the spirit are separated, because what fellowship does light and darkness have? None.

Just as God didn't get rid of the darkness in Genesis He doesn't eliminate the darkness in your life it's just that light and darkness live side-by-side, but not in fellowship with one another. That's why there is a constant (should be a constant) war going on between the Spirit (which commuicates with your alive spirit) and the flesh (darkness body/soul) that is still within you.

Hope that gives you a little better understanding. I would highly encourage you to study the matter out and I would be more than happy to share with you some great resources just PM me!

Which church(es) do have it right?

Ah that is a great question. Unfortunately churches are getting harder and harder to find that teach these Truths. We are in the final days of church history and the Bible is very clear that "the church" isn't going to be in good shape in these final days.

But there are a few churches that do. It is more individual ministries that are teaching these truths and thankfully the internet has made it easier for more and more people to find these truths and fellowship together. I live in the greater Houston area and to my knowledge I have not found any church in this area.

 

[Kris]

J.Jump what you sent is wonderful! I really appreciate your time in sending it to me. It's fairly simple to use. I am especially interested in lessons 6 & 9. I will look forward to starting it tonight after the fireworks. Thanks for the PM raise:

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

like I said, the only Problem Lutherans have is too many rituals and ordaining Women to improper positions in the CHurch

 

[Kris]

Unchartered, I agree. They certainly do have many rituals.I recited almost everything by memory from when I was 13 years old, I am now 37.

This church has no ordained women I know of, but that is interesting to know Thanks

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

I wonder whether the pastor you quoted really said what is reported. It would be contrary to Luther in that Luther saw that faith was fiducia, not assensus. That is, faith is a posture of the heart, not agreement to theological ideas. To posit faith as agreement to Trinitarian doctrine is to make faith a "work" -- not a very Lutheran idea.

I too am one who was exposed to the Lutheran worship way early on, as my father was a Lutheran, my mother a Baptist. I learned to play the organ in a Lutheran setting and became truly enamored of the worship heritage that nurtured Bach and Mendelssohn and which continues to produce musical material of great spiritual value.

 

[D28guy]

same

We are eternally justified in Gods sight through faith in Jesus Christ...and that is faith alone.

That liberating truth is thundered from the scriptures to the great disdain of legalists and those false *christian* groups who are masquarading as "christian".

The minute we add works to what is required to be saved we begin proclaiming a false gospel that will not save, for it has Gods curse on it.

Fruit..or "works"..will be in evidence as a result of our salvation, but have no part in our attaining salvation.

The book of James does not contradict these truths in the least, it compliments them beautifully.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[gekko]

And unfortunately most of Christendom twists the Scripture to make it fit the message of salvation by grace through faith.

Quote:
If your faith is genuine, it will produce works.

That is not a true statement. There are a number of people that have believed the good news of eternal salvation by grace through faith and not gone on to do good works, because of a lack of discipleship.

Good works are not a guarantee and Scripture tells us that in v. 10 of Ephesians 2, which you quoted.

blah blah blah. and im gonna run for bein the next pope.
---

hey J.Jump. Mr. Know-what-scripture-really-means! hows it goin there?

how do you know you're not mis-interpreting scripture? hmm?

because you read the scripture?
blah blah blah.

gonna need a better answer then that.
---

you may raise some good points.

then again. i may be the next pope.
---

(note: i am not catholic)

 

[JFox1]

We are eternally justified in Gods sight through faith in Jesus Christ...and that is faith alone.

That liberating truth is thundered from the scriptures to the great disdain of legalists and those false *christian* groups who are masquarading as "christian".

The minute we add works to what is required to be saved we begin proclaiming a false gospel that will not save, for it has Gods curse on it.

Fruit..or "works"..will be in evidence as a result of our salvation, but have no part in our attaining salvation.

The book of James does not contradict these truths in the least, it compliments them beautifully.

Grace and peace,

Mike

Thank you for explaining that so well! :thumbs: