"Saved by Faith Alone"- Lutheran Church Visit

[gekko]

That's what you are saying of the first three people.

really? i've said that? if i have im sorry. let me explain.

"And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts."

so the word is sown in their hearts. But - once they Hear the Word - Satan comes quickly and snatches the word away from their hearts.

the word was sown in their heart (a show) but satan came to snatch it away before they even heard it. and without hearing it there is no action.

satan has snatched the word that was simply sown. false convert. not because there is no fruit. but because, like you explained a little i believe, because Satan had overcome them. they have fallen away.

were they really saved in the first place? or was it just words they said and didn't really believe it in their heart? before they could really believe it in their heart - Satan snatched it all away.
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"And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended."

there is a man on a plane. a stewardess comes by and hands him a parachute telling the passenger that it will improve his flight. the passenger wants a better flight so he immediately takes the parachute and straps it on. later on in the flight he gets uncomfortable and the surrounding passengers start to mock him because - who wears a parachute while in a plane? finally the passenger is fed up - he stands up - takes the parachute off and throws it on the ground - he is rightly mad at the stewardess - because according to him - he's been told an outright lie. he was told the parachute was going to improve his flight - but all it brought was mocking and uncomfortableness.

and

there is a man walking down the street. a christian comes up to the man and tells him "hey man - you heard of Jesus? He'll make your life so much better! give you happiness, joy, fulfillment. the works. you want to meet him today?" the man responds, first thinking to himself - (hmm. maybe i'll give this Jesus guy a try) "yeah man. i want to meet him today" christian responds "ok. you just gotta say this prayer and go to church." so they pray. and they're both happy. as the week goes by - the man walking has been having the most terrible week in his life. he is rightly mad at the christian for even mentioning Jesus to him. so he denies Jesus Christ. and goes on with his life - which evidently got 'better.' according to him.

and

there are two trees. one very large - one very small. you want the large one to grow much bigger - so you think about digging out the small tree - but you dont. but then summer comes around - and the large tree dies. doesnt live again. so you dig it up. and to your surprise - there's bedrock only 4 feet under the tree. which is the reason it had died - because it didn't have any moisture. didnt have any water. you then go to the small tree and notice that it has flourished.
the large tree grew very quick because it had alot of moisture in the beginning - but after all the sun and heat - it died.

the passenger - and walking man - and the large tree. all stony ground hearers.
was the walking man saved in the first place? or was he just trying it all out?
they all fell away. (the tree died) all immediately responded and took it gladly. but when the promised persecution and tribulation began - they fell away.
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"And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful."

this is basically the same as the seed which fell on the way-side. there is no room for growth for this seed. and so it dies. it becomes covered by the thorns. choked out by the thorns. and does not grow.

this seed is spiritually not growing.
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"And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred."

this is good seed planted on good ground - and WILL grow.
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When Jesus told His disciples the parable of the sower, they did not understand what it meant. When they asked Him about it later, He said, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?" (Mark 4:13). In other words, if they could understand the parable of the sower, they would hold the key to unlocking the mysteries of all the other parables.
If there is one message that comes from the parable about the stony ground, the thorny ground , and the good ground, it is this: When the gospel is preached, there will be true and false conversions.
Judas, for example, was a false convert. He was a hypocrite - a pretender - whose desire (it seems) for riches and power choked out his affection for Christ. In terms of the parable, we would say that he was a thorny-ground hearer, in whom "the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful." (Mark 4:19)
Judas had no idea who Jesus really was. When a woman anointed Jesus with an expensive ointment in an act of sarificial worship, Judas complined that the ointment should have been sold and the money given to the poor (John 12:3-6). In his estimation, Jesus of Nazareth wasn't worth such extravagance - He was only worth about thirty pieces of silver. Moreover, the Bible tells us that Judas was lying when he say that he cared for the poor. He was actually a thief who so lacked a healthy fear of God that he was stealing money from the collection bag (John 12:6). Nevertheless, to all outward appearances, Judas was a follower and disciple of Christ.
Once the premise has been established that there will be true and false conversions when the gospel is preached, then the light of revelation begins to dawn on the rest of what Jesus taught in parables about the kingdom of God. If one grasps the principle that true and false converts will be alongside each other in the church, then the other parabolic teachings also make sense: the wheat and the tares, the wise virgins and the foolish virgins, the sheep and the goats, the good fish and bad fish.
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Jesus sai to them, "have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord." (Matthew 13:47-51)
Notice that the good fish and the bad fish were in the net together. Notice also that unbelievers are not caught in the dragnet of the kingdom of heaven; they remain in the world. The "fish" that are caught are those who hear and respond to the gospel - the evangelistic "catch." They remain together, the true and the false, until the Day of Judgment.
False converts do have a measure of spirituality. Judas certainly did. He had apparently convinced the other disciples that he truly cared for the poor. And he seemed so trustworthy that he was the one who looked after the finances. When Jesus said, "One of you will betray me," the disciples didn't point the finger at Judas; instead, they suspected themselves, saying "Is it I, Lord?" That's why its not surprising that so few within the body of Christ today would suspect that we are surrounded by those who fall into the "Judas" category. A warning should sound when the church, which ourght to have tremendous clout in society, sadly lacks influence. Despite the millions of prefessed believers in the United States, we can't even outlaw the killing of the unborn.

quoted from The WOTM book. written by kirk cameron and ray comfort. Copyright: 2002,2003,2004.

 

[J. Jump]

really? i've said that? if i have im sorry.

Gekko you are starting to get comical. You apolgize for saying that they are unsaved and then you proceed to show how they are unsaved. Which is it? Are they saved or unsaved?

The problem is you are trying to prove a point that the context will not allow you to prove. The context of the passage is fruit bearing which means only saved people are in view, becuase only save people are even capable of bearing fruit.

The first three examples show you why they don't bear fruit, not that they aren't capable of it. The first one can't bear fruit not because he is unable, but because Satan steals the word that was sown in his heart.

Why would you add to Scripture to say (a show)? That's not in Scripture.

The other two are not grounded in the truth of the word of the kingdom, not of salvation, and the other one is squeezed out by the cares of this world.

Once again we have to get rid of these false teachings and just let the Bible be the Bible!

 

[gekko]

and then you proceed to show how they are unsaved.

i didnt say that at all either.

"False converts do have a measure of spirituality."