"Saved by Faith Alone"- Lutheran Church Visit

[webdog]

blah blah blah. and im gonna run for bein the next pope.
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hey J.Jump. Mr. Know-what-scripture-really-means! hows it goin there?

how do you know you're not mis-interpreting scripture? hmm?

because you read the scripture?
blah blah blah.

gonna need a better answer then that.
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you may raise some good points.

then again. i may be the next pope.
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(note: i am not catholic)

If you don't agree with JJump's exegesis, that's one thing, but why the condescending attitute? What do YOU believe it means? (And before you start to exegete the book of James, go through Galatians first)

 

[J. Jump]

blah blah blah. and im gonna run for bein the next pope.
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hey J.Jump. Mr. Know-what-scripture-really-means! hows it goin there?

how do you know you're not mis-interpreting scripture? hmm?

because you read the scripture?
blah blah blah.

gonna need a better answer then that.
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you may raise some good points.

then again. i may be the next pope.

I see you are reverting back to your immature sarcasim. And you were doing so well. Hopefully you will snap out of this funk as well and then we can continue to discuss Scripture.

 

[Kris]

I wonder whether the pastor you quoted really said what is reported. It would be contrary to Luther in that Luther saw that faith was fiducia, not assensus. That is, faith is a posture of the heart, not agreement to theological ideas. To posit faith as agreement to Trinitarian doctrine is to make faith a "work" -- not a very Lutheran idea.
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Hi Joseph

In this instance, I don't see the Trinitarian belief as "making faith a "work". All I must do is believe, that's it. Luthers definition of "Faith being a posture of the heart" is not a definition I am familiar with. It may not be the defintion Pastor holds as it doesn't sound sound to me. I understand faith's definition as: believing in what is unseen.
You must have faith in something to have faith at all, so having faith in the Trinity (God, the Son who shed his blood and died for our sins so we may have eternal life, & holy spirit-meaning God existing as three persons) doesn't appear offhand to make faith a work. But it certainly may if you apply Luther's defintion so maybe Pastor is being an independent thinker. Or I am not understanding him yet.

 

[Chemnitz]

Lutheran's use two different definitions of faith. Saving faith is fiducia and assensus is the outward expression of saving faith.

Admittedly, it does get kinda confusing.

 

[gekko]

this is a true convert

If your faith is genuine, it will produce works.

"But he that received the seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some and hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty"
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this is a false convert

There are a number of people that have believed the good news of eternal salvation by grace through faith and not gone on to do good works, because of a lack of discipleship.

"When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

 

[Hope of Glory]

Gekko, you're mixing two different messages here: The gospel of salvation and the gospel of the Kingdom.

(I'm assuming that by "convert", you're talking about someone who is spiritually saved.)

 

[gekko]

why is it HoG that you think there's only one interpretation to each scripture? that there's only one application for the scripture?

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i was simply addressing the fact that J.Jump didnt agree with "if your faith is genuine, it will produce good works"
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[Hope of Glory]

why is it HoG that you think there's only one interpretation to each scripture? that there's only one application for the scripture?

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i was simply addressing the fact that J.Jump didnt agree with "if your faith is genuine, it will produce good works"
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And you seem to be applying that to how to be saved.

I could be mis-reading your statement, but that's what it seems to me. If that's not what you're saying, I apologize for misunderstanding.

 

[gekko]

no im not trying to apply that how to be saved.

all im saying is that if your faith is genuine - the good fruit will show.

 

[Rooselk]

like I said, the only Problem Lutherans have is too many rituals and ordaining Women to improper positions in the CHurch

Not all Lutheran bodies allow the ordination of women. For instance, the Lutheran Chuch - Missouri Synod, which is the second largest Lutheran body in the US, does not ordain women.

 

[J. Jump]

all im saying is that if your faith is genuine - the good fruit will show.

Gekko it seems as though you are saying that the first three people in that story are unsaved. Would that be a correct assumption?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Gekko, I guess the reason I misunderstood is because you are referencing the parable of the soils, which is referencing four different kinds of Christians, and I thought you were applying it to salvation.

Sorry about that.

 

[gekko]

you are very sneeky J.Jump.
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the first three people i believe represent people who are not christians.
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have i evaded what answer you wanted yet?

 

[J. Jump]

Well I wasn't trying to be sneaky. I just asked a question.

And you gave the answer just as I suspected you would. The problem is you say made this statement:

no im not trying to apply that how to be saved.

But then you say that persons 1-3 aren't saved and only person 4 is. So while you weren't trying to tie the message into salvation you have by default, becuase you say that only those that show good works are saved.

Again the context of the message tells us that only saved people are in view, becuase works are in view. Only saved people even have the opportunity to do good works.

 

[Rooselk]

Does this mean what it really says?
We visited this church in which my sister and I grew up. They have a wonderful, godly group of people attending still.

The Pastor said they are saved by faith alone, and most people do not understand that. "If you believe in the Trinity, and what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross, then you are saved"

So they can do anything as long as they beleive?

If you really believe, out come the fruits (as I see it in that church) My online research hasn't been helpful really. Thanks

The answer to your question, and many others, can be found at the "Frequently Asked Questions" section of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod website at the following link:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=6477

But the short answer is:

As St. Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." Luther treasured Scripture's teaching of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone because he recognized that: 1)this teaching alone gives all glory to God for our salvation (our salvation is totally and completely a GIFT of God, not something we can "boast" about or take any credit for) and 2) this teaching alone makes it possible for us to have complete assurance of our salvation (if our good works were in any sense necessary for "earning" or contributing to our salvation, we could never know for sure that we had done "enough" to be saved).

Hope this helps.

 

[Kris]

Thanks Rooselk :thumbs:

 

[gekko]

no im not trying to apply that how to be saved.

notice i said "how to be saved" not trying to apply it to "how to be saved"

But then you say that persons 1-3 aren't saved and only person 4 is.

yeeess. because the 4th person is soundly saved - has genuine faith. the others are false. they are within the church. they are posers.

Again the context of the message tells us that only saved people are in view,

doesnt say that at all. sorry.

becuase you say that only those that show good works are saved.

have i ever said that good works saves ya? no.
would a genuinly saved person with genuine faith - a seed sown on good soil - would they have anything other then good fruit?

some a hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. of what? good fruits.

sure a couple bad fruits are produced - but they are noticed RIGHT away because they are the odd-fruits out. and therefore cut-off and thrown to the fire.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Works are works are works, whether you apply them to get saved, to stay saved, or to prove you're saved.

Should we produce good fruit? Certainly. But, many don't.

Praise God our salvation is not based on our ability to produce good works; it's based upon the perfect work completed by Jesus on the cross.

 

[gekko]

Praise God our salvation is not based on our ability to produce good works;

yeah.
but our ability to produce good fruit is based on our salvation.

 

[J. Jump]

but our ability to produce good fruit is based on our salvation.

And no one has argued against this point. If you are eternally saved, you are capable of producing good fruit, but that doesn't mean you will. And it doesn't mean if you don't you aren't saved.

That's what you are saying of the first three people. You say because they aren't producing fruit that they aren't saved. There is nothing in the text that say they are incapable of producing fruit, they just don't because of other reasons.

Their seed is stolen, or they have a shallow understanding or they get caught up in the cares of this world. That's amazing that it goes right in hand with what the Christian is to overcome. We are to overcome Satan, the flesh and the world. And we see these three people being overcome by one of these three scenarios.

They are all saved people, because works are NEVER in view when eternal salvation is in view.