Saved by faith and the sinner's prayer

[webdog]

If you get to the point of saying the sinner's prayer, wouldn't you have faith prior to saying it? We are saved by grace, through faith. Isn't the moment we have faith, and the realization in our heart what the real truth is the actual moment we are saved prior to even saying "the prayer"? So many people (expecially tv preachers) always tell us to "say this prayer" without telling us to have faith and truly believe what is preached. It's like they use a magic spell for salvation.

 

[whatever]

uh-oh

 

[El_Guero]

mmm ... depends upon your definitions ...

 

[webdog]

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
mmm ... depends upon your definitions ...

I don't think my definitions are relevant, but what the Bible says about faith. Faith is a heart isssue, not a words issue. If the event of saying "the prayer" is what saves, this would be works salvation. In order to pray and ask God to fogive you, you would have to have the faith that Christ's death for you is the only way to be saved...meaning faith.

 

[El_Guero]

'cept that i remember some little no name guy that said, "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

 

[webdog]

EG, yes...before you can confess with the mouth, you have to believe in your heart. If justification requires only belief...what is confessing with your mouth?

 

[El_Guero]

bump

 

[BadDog]

Romans 10:9, 10 is probably a Jewish chiasm... the outer lines line up in that poetic format.

NKJV - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto justification (righteousness - related Greek word - DIKAIOO), and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Now I'm going to say something that may sound a little strange at 1st: In the letter to the Romans, in fact, in general, in ALL of Paul's writings, salvation (or "saved") is NOT used to refer to eternal life salvation alone. Now, it is encompassed in it, but that is not its emphasis. Let's look at the past, present & future use of salvation as used in the NT. You've probably seen something like this before...

PAST: justification - "I've been saved from the penalty of sin."

PRESENT: sanctification - "I am being saved from the power of sin in my life."

FUTURE: glorification - "I will be saved from the presence of sin."

FYI, there is an aspect of "sanctification" (being set apart for a purpose) that occurs at our new birth - at our justification. But as we grow in Christ we are being changed into His likeness moment-by-moment - some refer to this as "progressive sanctification." We actually had a thread on that about a year ago. i don't really want to get into that here.

Now, a crucial thing to understanding where I am going is that Paul consistently refers to "justification" or being "justified" (declared to be righteous) as what we refer to as being born again. He uses "salvation" in a much more inclusive and general way than we do in English.

Now, let's look at this Romans' passage again ->
If you
....confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus
and
........believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead

--> You will be"saved"
(NOT eternal life salvation, but the whole package.)

........for with the heart one believes unto justification
and
....with the mouth confession is made unto salvation


OK now, line up the bold and italicized sections.

If you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead... you are justified.

AND if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus... you are saved.

IOW, we are justified - we gain eternal life, by believing in our hearts ("for with the heart one believes unto justification"), and we are "saved" (remember, don't limit this to eternal life salvation, or you'll completely miss what Paul is saying here.) by confessing with our mouths the Lord Jesus.

BD

 

[webdog]

Welcome to the BB, BD. Excellent post.

 

[rsr]

This forum is for Baptists only. I would appreciate posters if they would remember this rule.

Thank you,

rsr

 

[AresMan]

PAST: justification - "I've been saved from the penalty of sin."

Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

PRESENT: sanctification - "I am being saved from the power of sin in my life."

Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (think of "work out" as lifting weights)

FUTURE: glorification - "I will be saved from the presence of sin."

Romans 13:11 "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed."

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by webdog:
If you get to the point of saying the sinner's prayer, wouldn't you have faith prior to saying it? We are saved by grace, through faith. Isn't the moment we have faith, and the realization in our heart what the real truth is the actual moment we are saved prior to even saying "the prayer"? So many people (expecially tv preachers) always tell us to "say this prayer" without telling us to have faith and truly believe what is preached. It's like they use a magic spell for salvation.

I just recently posted this on another subject. With some variation of the first sentence. Quote "The “sinners prayer” was for that day, asking for mercy (propitiation)? Jesus had not yet shed His blood. Are we to today to ask for propitiousness from God? God forbid. Our Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood for us. Do we now say that was not good enough?

At that time, the Jewish publican owner of a “pub”, bartender or whatever other reference can be made, could enter into the kingdom asking God in prayer to accept his “blood sacrifice” as propitiation for his sins. In that day those of His nation could just Ask, and it would be done. Today we pray His will be done.

Today we are to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save us, not making a blood sacrifice, and praying that prayer.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God,” Romans 3:25." Unquote

That prayer, and the Apostle's Prayer given them by Jesus, are not for today. The Apostle's prayer is plainly for those Jews in the tribulation.

 

[Snitzelhoff]

It is interesting to note that a comparison can be made between Romans 10:9 (confess and believe) and Mark 16:16 (believe and be baptized). If confessing Christ is a pre-requisite to salvation, then so is baptism, and POOF, you're a Campbellite (Church of Christ). On the other hand, refusing to confess Christ is on the same level as refusing baptism, as it usually shows that there's probably no saving faith there.

Michael

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Snitzelhoff:
It is interesting to note that a comparison can be made between Romans 10:9 (confess and believe) and Mark 16:16 (believe and be baptized). If confessing Christ is a pre-requisite to salvation, then so is baptism, and POOF, you're a Campbellite (Church of Christ). On the other hand, refusing to confess Christ is on the same level as refusing baptism, as it usually shows that there's probably no saving faith there.

Michael

I believe we can see this another way Michael, removing conflict, otherwise we should believe as the Church of Christ, Catholics and others, that work is needed after all? Believe and be baptized is salvation into the kingdom for those that made covenant with God, for this includes “work” and a “work” denotes conditional salvation.

Confess means to admit, or acknowledge. We acknowledge and believe we are saved in Christ, denoting no work, for we acknowledge He did all the work for us. This salvation is of faith, and not of works. In verse 10 we notice Paul explains how verse 9 works. To become righteous we believe, and in faith we acknowledge our salvation. I see no way that we are required to make confession before men, as our salvation then depends on our work. Verse 10 tells us we won't be ashamed when we believe in His name.

We are of the Spirit, and Paul explains it another way, ”In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory,” Ephesians 1:13-14. When we believe we are saved and sealed, and then we confess (acknowledge) Christ to the praise of His glory! Christian faith, ituttut.

 

[Craigbythesea]

ituttut wrote,

I believe we can see this another way Michael, removing conflict, otherwise we should believe as the Church of Christ, Catholics and others, that work is needed after all? Believe and be baptized is salvation into the kingdom for those that made covenant with God, for this includes “work” and a “work” denotes conditional salvation.

Water Baptism is not, in Roman Catholic theology, a “work.” It is a sacrament through which grace is bestowed upon the believer through faith. And this teaching is not limited to Roman Catholics or the Church of Christ! Compare, for example,

THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
(1646)

CHAPTER XXVIII.
Of Baptism.

I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church, but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, or his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life: which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in his Churchy until the end of the world.

II. The outward element to be used in the sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.

III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person.

IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one or both believing parents are to be baptized.

V. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it, or that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

VI. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinancy the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in his appointed time.

VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered to any person.

And another example,

The Confession of Faith:
Which Was Submitted to His Imperial Majesty Charles V At the Diet of Augsburg in the Year 1530
by Philip Melancthon (1497-1560)
Translated by F. Bente and W. H. T. Dau
Published in: Triglot Concordia: The Symbolical Books of the Ev. Lutheran Church
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921),
pp. 37-95
Article IX
Of Baptism


Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.

They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.

We also have the testimony of the Holy Scriptures to reckon with,


Mark16:16. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Act 2:37. Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38. Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

1 Pet. 3:18. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19. in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20. who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Although the very large majority of Baptists do Not view water Baptism as a sacrament, the large majority of Christians do, and their belief is based upon the historic interpretation of the passages that I quoted above. Let us not, as Baptists, be too quick to say that they are all wrong and that we are right.

(All Scriptures NASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Snitzelhoff:
It is interesting to note that a comparison can be made between Romans 10:9 (confess and believe) and Mark 16:16 (believe and be baptized). If confessing Christ is a pre-requisite to salvation, then so is baptism, and POOF, you're a Campbellite (Church of Christ). On the other hand, refusing to confess Christ is on the same level as refusing baptism, as it usually shows that there's probably no saving faith there.

Michael

Michael,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us—and welcome to the Baptist Board!

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
ituttut wrote,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I believe we can see this another way Michael, removing conflict, otherwise we should believe as the Church of Christ, Catholics and others, that work is needed after all? Believe and be baptized is salvation into the kingdom for those that made covenant with God, for this includes “work” and a “work” denotes conditional salvation.

Water Baptism is not, in Roman Catholic theology, a “work.” It is a sacrament through which grace is bestowed upon the believer through faith. And this teaching is not limited to Roman Catholics or the Church of Christ! Compare, for example,

The Westminster Confession of Faith

I really wasn’t aware that Baptist’s drew-up The Westminster Confession of Faith. I didn’t know Baptists are “Reformed”. I didn’t know Baptists believed as the Catholic, and others for the “Reformed” churches believe children are believers, if I’m not mistaken. I always thought Baptist churches to be autonomous.

Does this from your post show necessity of “water” baptism in any form to be necessary for salvation? If so is it not a work, and it must be done for salvation? “of regeneration, of remission of sins,” in I? In III “Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person?” Your church believes differently than mine.

His Word tells us the Law of ordinances were nailed to the Cross. That “rite” or “sacrament” is to join a church to be with family and friends, and/or those of like faith. Water Baptism is not necessary for salvation, which I would say THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH holds forth.

Although the very large majority of Baptists do Not view water Baptism as a sacrament, the large majority of Christians do, and their belief is based upon the historic interpretation of the passages that I quoted above. Let us not, as Baptists, be too quick to say that they are all wrong and that we are right.
</font>[/QUOTE]Their belief is wrong for me; else I would join one of their churches. I don't believe in a universal church here on earth, and that is what is contained in the THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH. What was the point of all the churches breaking away from the mother church, if we are all going to believe the same thing?

When we all come together and accept other beliefs, that we do not believe, is the time for anti-Christ, for we will then believe anything. It will be politically, and religiously correct.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Personally, I am not a Reformed or Calvinistic Baptist, although there are many of them—and a number of them right here on this message board. And I do NOT hold to either the Westminster or the Augsburg Confession of Faith. My point is that the belief that water Baptism is a Sacrament through which the grace of God is bestowed upon the believer through faith is not a “work” and, therefore, it can not be lightly dismissed by simply calling it a “work” and tossing in the words “Roman Catholic.” And there is very much evidence from both the Bible and extra-Biblical sources that the normative manner of the bestowal of grace upon the believer in New Testament times was through water baptism. Is that to say that it must be the normative manner today? No, it is not. But before we dismiss the views of others as being incorrect, we need to study their views and the Biblical and historical basis of their views. I am a Baptist because my personal views are closer to the views of many other Baptists than they are to the views of Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, or Methodists. Does this necessarily mean that the views of Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, or Methodists are incorrect? No, it does not. It simply means that we differ in our personal beliefs, largely due to our upbringing and early experiences as a Christian.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Criag,

You saying, in your point that you believe water baptism is sacrament by through the grace of God.

Please explain to us, what is sacrament means?

I believe water baptism does not saved us. Also, I agree with you, that being baptized into water is not work for salvation. But, then why you saying water baptism is sacrament?

That word is used come from Roman Catholic and also Lutheran too.

BUT, ironically, I notice baptists teaching there are two sacraments - water baptism and Lord's supper. Why shall they saying of them? Sounds to me, it is part of good works for salvation, huh???

Keeping Lord's supper does not saved us. To be baptizing in the water does not saved us.

Lord's supper is the purpose for us, that Christ wants us to remember what He did for us. And we should keep Lord's supper, if without having Lord's supper, we would easily forget what Christ done for us, and can lead us into weak and forsaking the Lord. And might lead us toward hell if we forsake Lord.

Water baptism do not saved us. Water baptism is for the purpose of to obedience the Lord. To follow the Lord.

First, before we are being baptized into water, we must repent of our sins and believed in Christ then decide to follow Christ's way, that we must be baptized in the water.

By the way, I do not agree with "sinner's prayer".

I do not agree with baptist's soul winning method.

That is partially from Late Dr. Jack Hyles. Hyles taught of 'easy believism' mislead thousands of souls on the way to hell.

When I was a student at Midwestern Baptist College. I rememebered, when I was with my friend as student for on visitation. We met a young black man on the street in the city of Pontiac. I watched a student witnessed to a young man about salvation. I was no doubt, that student must have use 'Romans Roads' to witness to a young man. He witnessed him took about least in 5 minutes. Then, he asked him, if he wants to accept Christ to be saved. The young man nodded to him means yes. Then student prayed to Christ and talked in 'sinner's prayer' FOR him. That was wrong method of soul winning. The young man didn't say anything to Christ in prayer. He just quiet and listen to student's prayer. Afterward, that young man never have been attend that church after he was witnessed by a student. I knew that young man is not truly saved.

Ironically, that same student which, he witnessed to a young man. He told me, when he was 9 years old, he grew up in Gary, Indiana. He was brought to First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, where Late Dr. Jack Hyles' church is. He was saved and baptized on the same day. BUT, he told me, he do not understand the man witness to him, because he was toooooo fast and in a hurry. He was not truly saved in the first place, because he does not unmderstand him, but he just 'accepted' Christ anyway. Many years later, he was in navy at Phillippines Islands. He heard another man witness gospel to him. It took about 20 to 30 minutes for him to undertsand the gospel. Then, he finally understood the gospel, and decided want to ask Chrst to be saved.

Dr. Hyles boasted and claimed First Baptist Church won over 15,000 souls saved during SINGLE Sunday morning service, plus 5,400 were baptized follow same day that was in year around 1996 or 1997. I doubt most of 15,000 souls are actual saved. Because of wrong method of soul winning. I believe they just simple say, 'yes' and saying in "sinner's prayer" like as a-b-c. I doubt that most of them were actual understand the gospel and salvation, because of most of them were not serious repent of their sins. They are remain in their old ways of sins.

The reason why Late Dr. Hyles were boast of his church on the numbers and records, because of his pride. Pride is a sin. Period. We know that God hates pride. I have no idea, if Dr. Hyles was actual repent of his sin on pride.

I dislike his attitude. He was boast of his church, it claims, 'World's Largest Sunday School', it holds over 100,000 memberships. My question is where are they right now? Are they truly all saved on the way to heaven??

Bible oftens teaching us, that we must witness to them about Jesus Christ, sin, hell, and telling people that they have to repent of their sins, and ask Christ to forgive their sins, and serious decide want to follow Christ right way.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!