Saved in the Old Testament

[trailblazer]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Which of those verses show that the OT people were saved by putting faith in the Messiah to come?

Old Testament Jewish and Gentile believers who put faith in the Messiah to come:

Joseph believed that the future savior was for the salvation from sins.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

Mary looked forward to the Savior of her sins
Luke 1:47 “…and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.”

The shepherds looked forward to the Messiah
Luke 2:11 “For to you is born today, in the city of David, a Savior, who is Christ the Lord…. “And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God…” (v. 20)

Andrew and Peter had faith in a future Messiah
John 1:41 “[Andrew] first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah (which is, being translated, the Christ).

The Samaritan woman had to have looked forward to a coming Messiah
John 4:25 “The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things.

Other Gentile Samaritans must have believed in a forward coming Messiah
John 4:42 “And they said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of your saying, for we have heard Him ourselves and know that this is truly the Christ, the Savior of the world.

SMITH'S BIBLE DICTIONARY OF "MESSIAH"

Messi'ah. (anointed). This word, (Mashiach), in the Old Testament, answers to the word Christ, (Christos), in the New Testament, and is applicable in its first sense, to any one anointed with the holy oil...

This word also refers to the expected Prince of the Chosen People who was to complete God's purposes for them, and to redeem them, and of whose coming, the prophets of the Old Covenant, in all time, spoke. He was the Messiah, The Anointed, that is, consecrated as the King and Prophet by God's appointment.

The word is twice used in the New Testament of Jesus. Joh 1:41; Joh 4:25. Authorized Version, "Messias."

The earliest gleam of the gospel is found in the account of the fall. Gen 3:15.

The blessings in store for the children of Shem are remarkable indicated in the words of Noah. Gen 9:26.

Next, follows the promise to Abraham. Gen 12:2-3.
A great step is made in Gen 49:10. This is the first case in which the promises distinctly centre in one person.

The next passage usually quoted is the prophecy of Balaam. Num 24:17-19.

The prophecy of Moses, Deu 18:18, claims attention.

Passages in the Psalms are numerous, which are applied to the Messiah in the New Testament; such as Psalms 2; Psalms 16; Psalms 22; Psalms 40; Psalms 110.

The advance in clearness in this period is great. The name of Anointed, that is, King, comes in, and the Messiah is to come of the Lineage of David. He is described in his exaltation, with his great kingdom that shall be spiritual rather than temporal. Psalms 2; Psalms 21; Psalms 40; Psalms 110.

In other places, he is seen in suffering and humiliation. Psalms 16; Psalms 22; Psalms 40.
Later on, the prophets show the Messiah as a king and ruler of David's house, who should come to reform and restore the Jewish nation and purify the Church, as in Isaiah 11; Isaiah 40-66. The blessings of the restoration, however, will not be confined to Jews; the heathen are made to share them fully. Isa 2:66.

 

[Aaron]

Larry, you can really dance.

Christ said Abraham believed in Him. Paul and I agree.

 

[Phillip]

Remember that even Jesus said that his coming was predicted by the prophets of old--which means that BEFORE the prophets, it was not generally known that a messiah would come.

Obviously, foreshadowing took place, but hindsight is only 20/20 when we do not know the true understanding of the Old Testament people.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by trailblazer:
Mat Luke Luke John John John

Starting to see a theme here??? What do all these have in common??? They are all NT and none of them make the coming Messiah the content of saving faith. Why is that so hard to see? Are we just talking right past each other here??

SMITH'S BIBLE DICTIONARY OF "MESSIAH"

And what good does giving a definition do? The definition is not at issue. Every thing in that is true. None of it is relevant to this discussion. The question is, Were people in the OT told to believe in the coming Messiah for salvation from sin? The answer is no, there is no such place.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry, you can really dance.

[I haven't danced at all. To this point in the thread, I have asked for people to show where the Bible says that a coming Messiah was the content of faith for OT salvation. So far, no one has been able to do that.

Christ said Abraham believed in Him.

Where did Christ say that Abraham trusted in himself (Christ) for salvation?

Paul and I agree.

And where did Paul say this?

Remember what the question is. The question is not Was Abraham saved by faith? We all agree that he was. The question is What exactly did Abraham believe? Support your answer with Scripture.

 

[trailblazer]

Larry,

as quoted by Pastor Lary - "Mat Luke Luke John John John...Starting to see a theme here??? What do all these have in common??? They are all NT and none of them make the coming Messiah the content of saving faith. Why is that so hard to see? Are we just talking right past each other here??

Oh come on! Are you a pastor and yet you do not know that everyone of the above examples of individuals held OT beliefs about the future Messiah that would come to save them from their sins? You, above all should know this!!!!

Also, the New Testament/Covenant did not begin until the death of the testator - the Cross.

Why do you fight to your death by citing erroneous precepts like this?

 

[Pastor Larry]

The point that they believed that a Messiah would come is not the issue, TB. Listen to me: Where is teh OT saint ever told to believe in the coming Messiah in order to be saved??? There is no place. There is no OT equivalent of Acts 16:31 or a host of other verses. Certainly, as the time came closer, particularly in your citations above, it was clearer. But let's be clear: The OT saint was never told to believe in the coming Messiah in order to be saved and have their sins forgiven.

The erroneous precept is certainly on not on my part. You have substantiated my point by your repeated failure to cite any text that supports your position. Why is that hard for you to see?

 

[trailblazer]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
"The point that they believed that a Messiah would come is not the issue..."

IT IS THE VERY HEART OF THE ISSUE!

"The OT saint was never told to believe in the coming Messiah in order to be saved and have their sins forgiven.

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; HE shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."Ge 3:15

Adam and Eve were present and heard the curse upon the serpent in addition to the promise of a Redeemer. They told it to their children, Cain and Abel, just as you as a parent would. You don't think that would have been the hot topic of conversation at the dinner table??? Then they are seen bringing sacrifices. Where did they get their info about the purpose of sacrifices if not from their parents? The serpent?

"You have substantiated my point by your repeated failure to cite any text that supports your position."

Larry, how many scripture verses does it take for the Spirit of God to work in your heart? Count the verses I used to support my position in my above post!

"Why is that hard for you to see?"

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by trailblazer:
Larry,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> as quoted by Pastor Lary - "Mat Luke Luke John John John...Starting to see a theme here??? What do all these have in common??? They are all NT and none of them make the coming Messiah the content of saving faith. Why is that so hard to see? Are we just talking right past each other here??

Oh come on! Are you a pastor and yet you do not know that everyone of the above examples of individuals held OT beliefs about the future Messiah that would come to save them from their sins? You, above all should know this!!!!

Also, the New Testament/Covenant did not begin until the death of the testator - the Cross.

Why do you fight to your death by citing erroneous precepts like this?

</font>[/QUOTE]Brother Larry---every one of those early disciples of Jesus was looking for Messias

Try this verse

"Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."---John 1:46

IOW---the search for Messias was on---and it went on until the search was narrowed down to the only person it could point to--Jesus of Nazareth.

Then try this verse

"Nathanael answered and saith unto Him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; Thou art the King of Israel."--John 1:49

Every saved Israelite lived by faith---believing that one day their Messias would come and save them from their sin!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by trailblazer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
"The point that they believed that a Messiah would come is not the issue..."

IT IS THE VERY HEART OF THE ISSUE!</font>[/QUOTE]No, it isn't. The issue is this: Was belief in that coming Messiah the belief necessary for salvation? The answer is No, the OT never says that.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"The OT saint was never told to believe in the coming Messiah in order to be saved and have their sins forgiven.

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; HE shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."Ge 3:15

Adam and Eve were present and heard the curse upon the serpent in addition to the promise of a Redeemer. They told it to their children, Cain and Abel, just as you as a parent would. You don't think that would have been the hot topic of conversation at the dinner table??? Then they are seen bringing sacrifices. Where did they get their info about the purpose of sacrifices if not from their parents? The serpent?</font>[/QUOTE]So which part of that verse tells them to believe in that coming seed for salvation? If you read it, you will there is not one command there to believe in the coming seed.

They got the info about the sacrifice from God. But what did God tell them? We don't know. There is no evidence that he told them what the sacrifice represented. You are adding that to Scripture.

Larry, how many scripture verses does it take for the Spirit of God to work in your heart? Count the verses I used to support my position in my above post!

[/qb]It only takes one verse to prove the point, and out of all the verses you have given, not a single one of them commands the OT person to believe in a coming Messiah in order to be saved. How can you not see that?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Why is that hard for you to see?"

</font>[/QUOTE]Why is that confusing? Where is the command to believe in the coming Messiah?

The OT believer had faith in God and demonstrated it by obedience in bringing the sacrifice. There is no evidence that they understood what that sacrifice meant or represented. You keep trying to read that in. Today, we can look back and see the picture, but only because of the later revelation. They did not have that. You can't read your information back onto their lives.

The challenge remains: So a verse where the OT person was commanded to believe in a coming Messiah for salvation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by blackbird:
Brother Larry---every one of those early disciples of Jesus was looking for Messias

Try this verse

"Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."---John 1:46

IOW---the search for Messias was on---and it went on until the search was narrowed down to the only person it could point to--Jesus of Nazareth.

But think of even the disciples who did not understand that Jesus had to die for sin. PEter, in fact, tried to stop him. That shows clear evidence that they were not trusting in a MEssiah who would die. The fact that they were looking for a Messiah was never the issue. The issue is this: What were they believing in for salvation? That precise question keeps getting overlooked in the generalities you keep throwing forth.

Every saved Israelite lived by faith---believing that one day their Messias would come and save them from their sin!

So what part of that verse says anything about the Messiah saving them from their sin, much less about salvation being by faith in that coming Messiah?

Guys, this is so simple: Acts 16:31 is abundantly clear, as is the whole NT. Why can you not even provide one verse from the OT that is similar?

 

[trailblazer]

Larry,

This may get deleted I don't know. But, I really, really, think you need to take a good look at your ability to teach God's Word if you can't even understand the very basic and essential meaning of faith in "what is not seen, because what is seen is not faith."

 

[trailblazer]

Larry,

Your interpretation of Acts 16:31 is a classic example of why I said what I said above;

"Guys, this is so simple: Acts 16:31 is abundantly clear, as is the whole NT."

Paul and Silas were in prison along with unsaved prisoners in Macedonia - a Roman colony. After seeing the earthquake, the doors miraulously opened and their shackles unfastened, the guard suddenly, for the first time, believed and wanted to know how to be saved. He was NOT one of the "elect" of the OT that believed in the future Messiah which would save them from their sins as was with Mary and Joseph.

 

[Pastor Larry]

This may get deleted I don't know. But, I really, really, think you need to take a good look at your ability to teach God's Word if you can't even understand the very basic and essential meaning of faith in "what is not seen, because what is seen is not faith."

Let's see if I have this straight: My ability to teach God's word is in question because you can't provide any Scripture to support your point? I have to say, that doesn't make much sense. I know what faith is. That is no problem nor is it an issue here. We don't disagree on that. What we disagree on is what the content of that faith was. The issue is what were OT people supposed to believe. You have not given one verse of Scripture to show that they were supposed to believe in a coming Messiah for salvation.

Paul and Silas were in prison along with unsaved prisoners in Macedonia - a Roman colony. After seeing the earthquake, the doors miraulously opened and their shackles unfastened, the guard suddenly, for the first time, believed and wanted to know how to be saved. He was NOT one of the "elect" of the OT that believed in the future Messiah which would save them from their sins as was with Mary and Joseph.

Which is all great and fine but completely irrevelant to the point. In Acts 16:31 you have a clear directive of what someone was supposed to believe for salvation. In fact, you have that many times in the NT. But the fact is that there is not one OT place you can cite of something simlar. Isn't that silence deafening? How can you not see that are adding to what Scripture says by your insistence that OT people were supposed to believe in a coming Messiah for salvation. Remember, the issue is not did they believe in a coming Messiah. The issue is the matter of for salvation ... were they supposed to believe in him for salvation? There is no scriptural evidence for that, as we can see by the fact that you have provided none.

I am more than willing to be convinced. But before you question my ability to teach, you need to use the Bible to show me wrong. In the OT we see forgiveness based on sacrifices offered in faith in God. The content of faith was that God would accept the sacrifices for their sins. The Bible never says that they believed in a coming Messiah for forgiveness. If you think it does, then put forth the verse and let's talk about it.

 

[trailblazer]

Larry,

I'm done with you! I'm wiping the dust off my feet of you. However, I will pray for you - and for those souls entrusted to your care.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Let's see if I have this straight: My ability to teach God's word is in question because you can't provide any Scripture to support your point?

Plenty of Scripture was supplied, Larry.

 

[blackbird]

Lets take a look at a Samaritan---that unnamed woman at Jacob's Well in John 4 and her anticipation of Messias

"The woman saith unto Him, I know that Messias cometh"

A clear indication of anticipation

"The woman saith unto Him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when He is come, He will tell us all things."

Who was this lady anticipating?? Messias--the one who would tell her "all things."---now, how many people do we know who is capable of telling "all things??"

Only one! Messias---God in flesh! This lady and her Samaritan buddies were anticipating God in flesh---the only one who could tell them "all things."

"Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he."

The last word in the sentence---"he" is in italics---meaning it was added later to provide clarity in reading.

But what Jesus was telling her was this---"I(that speak unto thee)am."----the great I AM!!

I believe with all my heart that Jesus was making it crystal clear---He was the God(Messias) even the Samaritans were looking for.

Blackbird

 

[Benjamin]

The issue is this: Was belief in that coming Messiah the belief necessary for salvation? The answer is No, the OT never says that.

OK, Why where they looking for the Messiah? Does the OT say that?

Otherwise we have one of those dispensational-contextual, grammatical, historical, hermeneutical, whateverical, exegeses, huh?

Or if you know it in your heart you must prove it or confess dispensationalism is that it?

 

[trailblazer]

by Larry - ”The Bible never says that they believed in a coming Messiah for forgiveness. If you think it does, then put forth the verse..."

First though, let’s start with the direct commandment God gives only to Adam – not Eve.

“And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden, but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” (Gen 2: 16 - 17)

Yet, Eve is obviously aware of the conditional rules of fellowship with God.

“And [the serpent] said to the woman, “Is it so that God has said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.” Gen 3:1 – 2

Now, it appears from some previous statements above that we cannot draw sound conclusions “if individuals were not directly informed in detail of what was expected of them, what they were to believe in or not believe in, if precise words were not used in a verse.” It is claimed that no scripturally sound conclusions can be drawn from the context because of the fact that it is not specifically laid out in black and white.

So, if you use that principle and apply it to the above two verses literally – we are left having to draw the literal conclusion that “since scripture does not precisely say that Eve was told directly what the rules were, she should not be held responsible for her sin?” I don’t think so!

Also, by the same token, are we left also to draw the literal conclusion that “since scripture does not precisely say that Cain and Abel were told directly what the rules of sacrifice were, Cain's sacrifice should have been acceptable to God? I don’t think so!

Scripture certainly does indicate that they knew that the purpose of the sacrifice was for sin because in Gen 4:7 we read that Cain is told he is to rule over it – it is not to rule over him;

“If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at the door; and its desire is for you, and you shall rule over [sin].”

From very early on in scripture, sin, separation, and punishment are pictured for the ungodly whereas faith, separation and salvation are also pictured for the elect that began with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

“And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous,” (Gen 18:20)

Now, what does sin need? It needs a Savior. Is faith in a Savior seen in the OT? Yes!

“The God who is my Rock, in Him will I trust. He is my Shield, and the Horn of my salvation, my High Tower, and my Refuge, my Savior. You save me from violence.”

Can it be said that only Jehovah is the Savior of those in the OT? Is not Jesus the Savior?

“Yet I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me.” (2Sa 22:3) (Hos 13:4)

Who was the future Messiah that was to be cut off if it was not the Savior of the world?

“And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.” (Dan 9:26)

The Samaritan woman, Simon and Nathaniel had faith forward in the future Messiah that was to come.

“The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I AM, the One speaking to you.” (John 4:25 – 26)

"And they said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of your saying, for we have heard Him ourselves and know that this is truly the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)

“He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is, being translated, the Christ). Jesus saw Nathaniel coming to Him and said of him, “Behold an Israelite indeed in whom is no guile!” (John 1:41 & 47)

Is not that also the Savior of Old Testament Mary, Joseph and the Shepherds who had faith forward that the Savior/Messiah/Christ/Jesus would be saving them from their sins?

“And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.” (Mat 1:21)

“…and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” (Luke 1:47)

“For to you is born today, in the city of David, a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” (Luke 2:11)

The Jehovah’s Witnesses like to use human reasoning by saying that “Because the word “Trinity” is not expressly used in the Word, then the doctrine of the Trinity is not scriptural,” but Christians should not be using that same kind of circular reason for denying obvious and undeniable truths in scripture.

We shouldn't be setting up false arguments like;
"The Bible never says that they believed in a coming Messiah - for forgiveness"because the very word itself IS forgiveness! Messiah is merely the Jewish word for the Greek word Christ!

[ February 19, 2005, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: trailblazer ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

I'm done with you! I'm wiping the dust off my feet of you. However, I will pray for you - and for those souls entrusted to your care.

I appreciate your prayers, though obviously you meant to be derogatory by that. That is disappointing. Why not just discuss differences without responding like that?

[ February 19, 2005, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]