Saved in the Old Testament

[Benjamin]

Likewise in the NT there isn't a specific passage which teaches that one must believe in the Trinity or the virgin birth, etc in order to be saved, the focus and object of faith being Jesus Christ. However most Trinitarians would say that these doctrine (and others) are essential doctrines of salvation.

The better question in my mind then is, was the belief in the coming Messiah presented in John Chapter 1 one of the OT fundamentals of the faith, an essential element of OT faith (similar to NT Trinitarianism) rather than the Messiah as a direct object of faith for salvation?

I'm inclined in that direction. It has historically been so in Judaism.

HankD

To compare the NT essential belief of the Son of God for salvation to be fundamentally equivalent to the OT belief of a coming Messiah you would have to document that salvation depended on it from the OT. Or I would think at least prove from (John 1) That they knew that Jesus was there to give salvation from the OT and it wasn't progressive revelation. I think that’s the rules. Good luck!

 

[HankD]

To compare the NT essential belief of the Son of God for salvation to be fundamentally equivalent to the OT belief of a coming Messiah you would have to document that salvation depended on it from the OT. Or I would think at least prove from (John 1) That they knew that Jesus was there to give salvation from the OT and it wasn't progressive revelation. I think that’s the rules. Good luck!

I didn't exactly equate the two on the same plane that you just did.

let me re-phrase it a bit to see if I can make it perfectly clear.

I equated the belief of the coming Messiah while under the Law in the OT as an essential doctrine to a saving faith but not the primary object of that faith much the same we equate the doctrine of the Trinity or the Virgin Birth to be essential ingredients to a saving faith under grace.

We under grace might have differences concerning the doctrine of baptism for instance but not necessarily say that sprinklers are lost assuming other essential doctrine are correct. If however these same folk denied the Virgin Birth we would have a real problem with them denying this essential doctrine.

It seems that this expectation of a real Messiah by Nathanael was an integral part of his faith of whom Jesus said was a "true Israelite in whom there is no guile".

The object of Nathanael's faith was Jehovah and his confidence in His ability to keep His promises, including the coming promised one.

If Nathanael was a true believer when he first met Jesus, was his messianic hope an essential ingredient of his "saving" faith although not the object of his faith?


HankD

 

[Benjamin]

HankD

That’s a pretty good loop-hole as far as essential faith, but the Messiah not being the object of a deliverer of salvation still doesn’t prove it wasn’t reveled later. Which is another rule, I think. Maybe Pastor Larry should list the rules.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
To clarify, the seed promise was two fold: a great nation (many) and a blessing (through one). To answer the direct question, I don't know. I do know that he was never told to have faith in that coming Messiah for salvation, and that is the point. He believed God and it was counted to him. There is no evidence that he believed coming Messiah who would forgive his sin through death.

What was the object of his faith, Larry?

 

[Pastor Larry]

The object of faith is always God, every age. It is the content of faith that changed. Abraham believed the promises of God in the covenant and received the sign of circumcision. He believed that God would forgive sins on the basis of the sacrifices he offered.

 

[Bro. James]

OT Faith--

Is the same as NT Faith with the exception being the Assembly, the Elect, the called out are different--the ones bringing forth fruit.

Jesus is the Lamb, slain from before the foundation of the world. He is One who bruised satan's head as promised the Federal Head(the first man--Adam) of the human kind(no kin to Lucy) in the Garden of Eden after Adam sinned.

He is that Christ for which Moses gave up the riches and power of Egypt to serve Him.

All OT saints looked to the bruised, bleeding, Anointed One. NT saints look back to the same: "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world"

Selah,

Bro. James

P.S. All the glory goes to God--anyone who has the faith to believe God, got that faith from God as a gift--free and clear, no strings attached. God gives faith after He redeems the soul; which probably belongs on another thread.

 

[Pastor Larry]

All OT saints looked to the bruised, bleeding, Anointed One.

And what Scripture says this?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

What is the purpose of Calvary?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Abraham believed the promises of God in the covenant and received the sign of circumcision. He believed that God would forgive sins on the basis of the sacrifices he offered.

Where is he commanded to believe those things to be saved?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />All OT saints looked to the bruised, bleeding, Anointed One.

And what Scripture says this? </font>[/QUOTE]1 Pet. 1:10-12

 

[aefting]

The object of faith is always God, every age. It is the content of faith that changed. Abraham believed the promises of God in the covenant and received the sign of circumcision. He believed that God would forgive sins on the basis of the sacrifices he offered.

I am OK with these statements, although I would strengthen "believed the promises of God in the covenant" to say that those promises actually revealed Christ to some extent. Abraham believed what God revealed about the Messiah, in this case, a promised seed.

I would also clarify that his acceptance of circumcision was not in any way the basis of his salvation (as Paul also clarifies).

I would also want to make the same clarification about the sacrifices he offered. His sacrifices did not in any way contribute to his salvation, but they were, as you said, what God required for the forgiveness of sins during that covenant/dispensation.

I don't believe that OT saints were saved on the basis of a generic belief in God. There was always content associated with that belief, and that content, I believe, always included some revelation concerning the coming Messiah.

Acts 10:43
To him [i.e., Christ] all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

Andy

 

[Bro. James]

OT Saints looked to Christ:

See Book of Hebrews Chapters 8-12.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Benjamin]

All OT saints looked to the bruised, bleeding, Anointed One. NT saints look back to the same: "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world"

Selah,

Did they look to “the bruised, bleeding, Anointed One”, Christ for future salvation, or did they think their sins were already paid for?

Romans 16:25 (KJV)
25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 16:26 (KJV)
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />All OT saints looked to the bruised, bleeding, Anointed One.

And what Scripture says this? </font>[/QUOTE]1 Pet. 1:10-12 </font>[/QUOTE]Peter 1 10-12 Says the prophets were searching to what it did “signify”. ! Peter 1:13 the next line, says it wasn’t reveled to them but to us.

 

[Benjamin]

Andy said, I don't believe that OT saints were saved on the basis of a generic belief in God. There was always content associated with that belief, and that content, I believe, always included some revelation concerning the coming Messiah.

I would think Abraham’s sacrifice contributed a show of faith that was as important for him to have his sins covered as our show of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation today.

That revelation concerning the coming Christ was a mystery and not reveled in context towards salvation to be associated with it.

quote:
________________________________________
Acts 10:43
To him [i.e., Christ] all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
________________________________________
Andy

The prophets bear witness i.e., present (now reveled) by their now understood revelations in the past (mystery).

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
Peter 1 10-12 Says the prophets were searching to what it did “signify”. ! Peter 1:13 the next line, says it wasn’t reveled to them but to us.

Read it again. It says they were wanting to know when these things were going to happen and under what circumstances. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. NIV

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Benjamin:
Peter 1 10-12 Says the prophets were searching to what it did “signify”. ! Peter 1:13 the next line, says it wasn’t reveled to them but to us.

Read it again. It says they were wanting to know when these things were going to happen and under what circumstances. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. NIV </font>[/QUOTE]1 Peter 1:10 (KJV)
10Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:11 (KJV)
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Peter 1:12 (KJV)
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

NIV It was revealed to them that they were not
KVJ Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves

OK, so they “just” figured out the gospel was for us. Did they know it before?
So why do you use that scripture to prove, “All OT saints looked to the bruised, bleeding, Anointed One.”?

 

[Bro. James]

I Peter 1 is sufficient; however the Book of Hebrews is overflowing with connections between the OT and NT. See Heb. Ch. 8-12.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[lilrabbi]

This thread is certainly interesting. As a convinced calvinist dispensationalist, I believe that men in the Old testament do exactly what men in the New Testament do to be saved. Faith is given to them by God. Faith is both a gift and an act. Its a gift in that we cannot exercise faith while in bondage to our sin. It is an act in that we act in it and by it - believing the amount of revelation that has been given to us. If one rejects the stuff God shows Him (and requires of him), then that one obviously has not been freed from his bondage to sin. Salvation is of God, we had nothing to do with it. We simply respond in the life that He gives us. Does a baby choose to be born? Or do babies simply act according to having been born? Obviously, the latter is the case. Men have faith because they are born of God. That faith is displayed in, well, having faith in what God has told us to believe.

For Christians, we have been given the full revelation of Christ, and are to believe in Him. For OT saints, they believed in the amount of revelation given to them at that time, just like us.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Where is he commanded to believe those things to be saved?

Gen 15:6 tells us that is what he believed that was counted to him for righteousness. It's pretty clear that the Messiah wasn't a part of that.