Saved in the Old Testament

[Benjamin]

I think Gen 3:15 is the gospel in undeveloped seed form, just like I think the promises to Abraham were a further revelation of the gospel (Gal. 3:8). People were saved by believing the gospel in the form that God gave it to them. I don't know any other way to understand what Scripture teaches.

I like the way you put that. I know where you’re coming from. For me to understand the “good news” of grace came in “different forms” and relating to the word “Gospel” in plural to separate the forms for study has been difficult.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by aefting:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes, but there is not enough revelation in either place to be saved.

But that is exactly what Paul said he believed when he got saved.</font>[/QUOTE]No it's not. Paul moved past that belief on the road to Damascus. He had been witness to the crucifixion of Christ, or at least to it's aftermath. It is quite clear that Paul understood the NT church's teaching. That is why he was persecuting them. He was not operating solely on OT revelation.

I think Gen 3:15 is the gospel in undeveloped seed form, just like I think the promises to Abraham were a further revelation of the gospel (Gal. 3:8). People were saved by believing the gospel in the form that God gave it to them. I don't know any other way to understand what Scripture teaches.

That is exactly what I would say. It was undeveloped. The full revelation of the Messiah was not there. Therefore, they were responsible to believe what God had revealed to them.

 

[aefting]

No it's not. Paul moved past that belief on the road to Damascus. He had been witness to the crucifixion of Christ, ...

You misunderstood what I said. Let me clarify in context:

Didn't Abraham believe the content of the promise? I'm not arguing that he had full knowledge of Christ or that he fully understood every type and shadow, but God did reveal SOMETHING about the Messiah to him, just as He did to Adam and Eve.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Yes, but there is not enough revelation in either place to be saved.

</font>[/QUOTE]But that is exactly what Paul said *Abraham* believed when he (i.e., Abraham) got saved (Rom 4).

That is exactly what I would say. It was undeveloped. The full revelation of the Messiah was not there. Therefore, they were responsible to believe what God had revealed to them.

And that is what I was trying to say with my previous comment.

Andy

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ah, I see ... Didn't get the "believed" part right ... Sorry. In sum, I don't see any biblical evidence that Abraham's faith was in a Messiah per se. He probably knew something about it, but how much we cannot tell. The perfect life, death for sins, resurrection etc ... all the things that people today must believe for salvation ... had not yet been revealed. Therefore, they were not responsible to believe in the coming Messiah since they did not have that revelation. The content of their faith was different than ours.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Another indication that Christ was not the content of saving faith in the OT is HEbrews 10:28, where those who reject him are under greater condemnation than those of the OT. Why? Because they have more revelation.

 

[Phillip]

I would like to thank each of you for debating this in detail. I did not realize that there would be so much interest in the subject at the beginning, but it is something I have heard preachers make remarks about (often not knowing what they are talking about).

Pastor Larry, I must say that you seem to have a very good grasp on the subject and you have taught me a lot about Old Testament belief. Thank you for that.

Continue on, do not let me stop the discussion. This is good. I just wanted to say thanks to all of you debaters whether I side with you or not. The truth is coming out.

 

[Benjamin]

Looking into why it was mystery it seems only natural that the glory of God would be a mystery once you do the math 2+7 = P&L.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by lilrabbi:
This thread is certainly interesting. As a convinced calvinist dispensationalist, I believe that men in the Old testament do exactly what men in the New Testament do to be saved. Faith is given to them by God. Faith is both a gift and an act. Its a gift in that we cannot exercise faith while in bondage to our sin. It is an act in that we act in it and by it - believing the amount of revelation that has been given to us. If one rejects the stuff God shows Him (and requires of him), then that one obviously has not been freed from his bondage to sin. Salvation is of God, we had nothing to do with it. We simply respond in the life that He gives us. Does a baby choose to be born? Or do babies simply act according to having been born? Obviously, the latter is the case. Men have faith because they are born of God. That faith is displayed in, well, having faith in what God has told us to believe.

For Christians, we have been given the full revelation of Christ, and are to believe in Him. For OT saints, they believed in the amount of revelation given to them at that time, just like us.

Was your revelation handed to you through a book or did it come from diligently searching the scriptures. Which would be a show of stronger faith in your heart to God? Do you think we as Christians, have been given the “full revelation” of Christ, or is there more to the “mystery” to be reveled in the end?

(Luk 6:20) And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

(Luk 6:21) Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

(Luk 6:22) Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

(Luk 6:23) Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

(Luk 6:24) But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

(Luk 6:25) Woe unto you that are full for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.


(Luk 6:37) Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

(Luk 6:38) Give, and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

(Luk 6:39) And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

(Luk 6:40) The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

(Luk 6:41) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Phillip:
How EXACTLY were people in the Old Testament times saved?

Did this only include Jews or Gentiles, too?

Biblical evidence?

They were saved differently than we. They were saved By faith.

 

[exscentric]

"They were saved differently than we."

Impossible.

"They were saved By faith." just like us!

Faith in what? In what God has revealed. All of us based on the work of the cross.

"Did this only include Jews or Gentiles, too?"

Do a study on the sojourners/strangers and I think you will find that there was an entire system to accept gentiles into Israel. They became almost the same as a Jew.

 

[Benjamin]

Well, now I know why the evidence wasn’t there and why it was being taught that way. It sure sheds a lot of light on a lot of scripture. I don’t know why I missed that point other than maybe it took a while to get there and read it. I do feel lead to the truth by the Holy Spirit as I have asked God for better understanding. A hard lesson, but it does not shake my “faith” one bit, but makes it stronger. God has opened my eyes to many truths and I thank Him for it.

 

[trailblazer]

Concering Hebrews 10:28,...

If post-Cross rejectors of Christ have "greater" punishment than pre-Cross rejectors of salvation, does it really matter if our rejection equal a "greater" punishment of eternal damnation??? I don't think so! BOTH are eternally condemned for rejection of the offer of salvation by the blood of the covenant. I think at this point, DEGREE OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IS RATHER IRRELEVANT!!!!

It is an expression to emphasize the fact that, even though the punishments are the SAME - ours is much more "worthy" of eternal punishment because we know the cross happened, whereas they looked forward to the event.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There are degrees of eternal punishment as REv 20 and other passages indicate. But the teaching of Heb 10:29 is that there is a greater punishment because they rejected greater revelation. What was that greater revelation? That Christ is greater ... The OT saints did not know that.

You say again that "they looked forward to the event" but you have not provided any scriptural evidence of that. However, I have provided much evidence that they did not know, including this very clear teaching of Heb 10:29.

 

[trailblazer]

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness." (James 3:1)

 

[Benjamin]

I agree that a teacher should teach wisdom among them that are “perfect” (1 Cor 2) in a mystery, letting the Holy Spirit teach by comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual, a man can not know without Spiritually investigating; and who knows the mind of the Lord in how He wants to instruct a man? God took Elijah and showed him he was nothing, to hid by the brook, God cut away (carat) and refined him.

Would man judge that it has been rejected and by a lack of Spirit or see a demonstration of the Spirit, which searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God, leading to the truth, not standing in the wisdom of man, but in the power of God?

 

[Benjamin]

P.S, Elijah feared he couldn’t touch an unclean thing and God feed him by the vultures.

 

[Pastor Larry]

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness." (James 3:1)

This, like most of what you have posted, has nothing to do with what people in the OT believed for salvation. There is no need to warn me about this teaching. I am well aware of it, and in fact, mentioned it yesterday in my preaching. And there was certainly no need to stick your tongue out at me.

 

[Phillip]

Trailblazer, it is very likely that since Pastor Larry is going to be judged on his teaching that he just might receive some nice rewards---have you thought about that? It works both ways.

 

[trailblazer]

Actually, I will apologize for the "tongue" icon - but with an honest explanation. When I selected it, there was no tongue visible - just a smiley icon. Honestly! Human mistake only! Check out the icons at the lower left and see for yourself!

No apology needed for the choice of verse. I have seen pastors and non-pastors have obvious scripture interpretation that an 8 year old can figure out laid out before them that have been rock solid doctrine for 1,800 years blown off for the preferred teachings of John Nelson Darby.

You must keep in mind that one of the few things that a dispensationaist and an Amillenialist can agree on is that we are definately in the "last days." Darby's false teachings are a classic example of what scripture warns us about that we should expect to see.

It is a very sad state of affairs that with so many churches in my area, I have to drive 30 minutes and pass by many churches only to find one that is "somewhat" solidly scripturally sound teaching! I think I'm going to stop with this now. I get angry when I see what is happening in the churches today - and that anger is scriptural!


So, is more expected of teachers, you betcha!

 

[trailblazer]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

“Which of those verses show that the OT people were saved by putting faith in the Messiah to come?

TRAILBLAZERS ROCK SOLID ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION. BUT WATCH THE SCRIPTURE GET COMPLETELY DISMISSED IN THE FOLLOWING POST! I THINK IT WILL BE OBVIOUS TO ALL THAT ANYONE BEFORE THE CROSS IS OLD TESTAMENT – BUT WATCH WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PROOF IS LAID OUT!

Old Testament Jewish and Gentile believers who put faith in the Messiah to come:

1- Joseph believed that the future savior was for the salvation from sins.

2- Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

3-Mary looked forward to the Savior of her sins
Luke 1:47 “…and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.”

4- The shepherds looked forward to the Messiah
Luke 2:11 “For to you is born today, in the city of David, a Savior, who is Christ the Lord…. “And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God…” (v. 20)

5- Andrew and Peter had faith in a future Messiah
John 1:41 “[Andrew] first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah (which is, being translated, the Christ).

6- The Samaritan woman had to have looked forward to a coming Messiah
John 4:25 “The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things.

7- Other Gentile Samaritans must have believed in a forward coming Messiah
John 4:42 “And they said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of your saying, for we have heard Him ourselves and know that this is truly the Christ, the Savior of the world.

SMITH'S BIBLE DICTIONARY OF "MESSIAH"

Messi'ah. (anointed). This word, (Mashiach), in the Old Testament, answers to the word Christ, (Christos), in the New Testament, [/quote]

Now, watch the dance!