Saved in the womb...........

[Scott_Bushey]

Saved in the womb?
Samson (Born a Nazarite) Judges 13:3-9?
Jeremiah (Sanctified before birth) Jer 1:5. Calvin calls it "Formarem in utero"?
John the Baptist (Filled w/ the Holy Spirit while in the womb?
Jacob(Two nations are in thy womb...)?

Discussion or additions?

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey:
John the Baptist (Filled w/ the Holy Spirit while in the womb?
Discussion or additions?[/QB]

Quick Correction, his mother was filled with the Holy Spirit, little Johnny B. just kicked or jumped when his mother was "slain by the spirit".

It was meeting Mary who was with child that this happened. It is strange that it wasn't the baby who was filled with the Spirit, wasn't it.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Post it,
I correct you sir ......
Luke 1:15 For he (John) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

[ September 01, 2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[HankD]

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

And, yes, I believe this indicates that he was saved in the womb.

HankD

[ September 01, 2002, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[LadyEagle]

No question about abortion here or when the "fetus" became a real human being person, either.

 

[russell55]

Can you explain how "two nations in thy womb" might have something to do with salvation while in the womb?

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey:
Post it,
I correct you sir ......
Luke 1:15 For he (John) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Re-correction sir...
he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

In your Bible it says "from his mother's womb, not "in" his mother's womb (as in at the time he comes from his mother's womb "birth".) NIV gives a more clear indication of this.

Back to you.

[ September 01, 2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[tyndale1946]

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me... Brethren looks to me like the pendulum swings both ways!

Psalm 51
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities... Brother Glen

 

[SBG]

Yada yada yada! The same ol' rebutted argument.
Life starts after a person takes a breath. I suppose Jesus wasn't the Christ while in the womb. Your arguments are elementary, and display that some "professing" Christians, haven't an ounce of spirtual discernmnet.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Scott inquires:
It seems that your appreciation of *Zondervans* NIV interpretation is opinion.

I add:
My interpretation of "even from the womb......"is to mean that John was "filled" while in the womb, even!

John Calvin states:
"The power of the Spirit, I acknowledge, did operate in John, while he was yet in his mother’s womb;"

A. Barnes writes:
Shall be filled with the Holy Ghost— Shall be Divinely designated to this particular office, and qualified for it, from his mother’s womb-from the instant of his birth. One MS., two versions,and four of the primitive fathers read en th koilia, IN the womb of has mother intimating that even before he should be born into the world the Holy Spirit should be
communicated to him. Did not this take place on the salutation of the Virgin Mary?-and is not this what is intended,
Luke 1:44? To be filled with the Holy Ghost, implies having the soul influenced in all its powers,with the illuminating, strengthening, and sanctifying energy of the Spirit.

Scott states: I appreciate the "receiverd Text for my studies.........From the womb, in the womb. The point is God can even regenerate while the person is in the womb.

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Scott B, Post-It and others. Saved in the womb? But of course! Why stop there. Let’s go back even FURTHER.

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” (Eph. 1: 4).

latterrain77

 

[HankD]

Oh no, not another wild goose chase!

HankD

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Latterrain 77 writes:
Hi Scott B, Post-It and others. Saved in the womb? But of course! Why stop there. Let’s go back even FURTHER.

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” (Eph. 1: 4).

Scott replies:
Election does not necessarily (outwardly) denote the salvific time-frame. Yes those that are elect,will be saved, but the point that is being posed here is that Gods salvific miracle can happen *even* in the womb!

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Scott. I appreciate your thoughts. However, Eph. 1: 4 says what it says. Are you saying that it says something other than what it says? (tongue twister – though not intended to be a goose chase).

The verse says "...as he (GOD) hath chose us in him before the foundation of the world." Surely, you agree this means SALVATION? If not, then please tell me what it means when GOD himself chooses us? Many are CALLED but few are CHOSEN (Matt. 20: 16).

Please refrain from using "Calvin quotes" and use Biblical quotes to support your reply. Thanks Scott!

latterrain77

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Latterrain,
The doctrine of election does not necessarily dictate (To us) a time frame; God may know, but we do not. Even in this sense, God does not see us reconciled to Himself until we are regenerate. Justification occurs when we are saved. Salvation (regeneration) and election are reconciled in the fact that they are biblically, 2 different events. For instance, the Apostle Paul states that he was *separated from his mothers womb*, but when was Paul saved, when did he become a believer? When one contrasts these ideas to the event John the Baptist experienced, one can see the differences.

Also..........I used scripture to support my premise (Luke 1:15). I appreciate the historical fathers of our faith also; they are valuable! Do you see this as a disadvantage or an injustice to Gods Holy word?

[ September 02, 2002, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Primitive Baptist]

The experiences of Jeremiah, John the Baptist, and Samson should be sufficient to prove salvation by the sovereign grace of God. These men had no choice in the matter of their salvation, yet I am confident they did not complain about it either!

 

[Lorelei]

Where does Christ fit into all of this?

Rom 3:21-25
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
NIV

Are we now saying that God's soveriegnty allows people to be saved before they can even believe, before they can even sin?

Does anyone at all realize the significance of the difference between the way the Holy Spirit worked in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament? (which included John the Baptist for the New Dispensation did not occur until after his death)

Did God set some men apart, why yes. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." His forknowledge allowed him to set those men apart that were going to accept the gospel message.

John 3:18-19
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
NIV

You can't believe one scripture and ignore the other, they must be in harmony. Since when did the Bible say that the cross was not necessary for salvation?

~Lorelei

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Lorelei,
You ask:
Are we now saying that God's soveriegnty allows people to be saved before they can even believe, before they can even sin?
Where does Christ fit into all of this?

Scott asks:
Did God save those noted in the thread topic outside of this scope? How do you reconcile the infant and the clinically diagnosed imbecile? Do all of them perish? Are all of them saved? How are they saved?

You state, "Before they can even sin?"

Scott replies: Romans state that *ALL* have sinned, none righteous, no not one! King David states that he was "brought forth in sin".

Scott asks:
Are you implying that God has two plans of salvation; one for the OT saint and one for the NT?

Chapter 11 of the book of Hebrews *unwinds* this misconception.

Also:
You do acknowledge that God worked in the lives of the names noted prior to their birth or at infancy?

Men have always been saved by grace, through faith. God justifies, outside of the will of men.

Lorelei states:
Does anyone at all realize the significance of the difference between the way the Holy Spirit worked in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament? (which included John the Baptist for the New Dispensation did not occur until after his death)

Scott inquires:
Please expound! Where is this *dispensational break* that you speak of? Were the Apostles also excluded from this dispensational "switcheroo?" As far as I know, it's the same Holy Spirit. Was there another dispensational break after Christ gave up the ghost?

In the OT, there was a thing called "theocratic anointing". God distributed the Holy Spirit to certain men in a larger capacity to accomplish His plan. Generally scripture reveals that these men were typically prophets and Kings. Outside of this idea, you will be hard pressed to support that which you have posed.

Lorelei says:
Did God set some men apart, why yes. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." His forknowledge allowed him to set those men apart that were going to accept the gospel message.

Scott asks:
God's elective decree is based upon God seeing men choosing to accept His message; this is what you've said? Did you not call Him sovereign earlier? So, He's really not sovereign, man is! Based upon this idea, Heaven could be an empty place because maybe no one will choose huh?
Theologically, you have misinterpreted the Greek in quoting the golden chain of salvation. I suggest you consult the Greek and gramatical laws in regards to this magnificent piece of scripture.

*Here is the great Puritan Sir William Perkins treatise on the Golden Chain of salvation (if you're interested).
www.apuritansmind.com/WilliamPerkins/WilliamPerkins.htm

Lorelei concludes:
You can't believe one scripture and ignore the other, they must be in harmony. Since when did the Bible say that the cross was not necessary for salvation?

Scott states:
No one ever stated that the cross was not central to salvation, but again I ask you, what do you do to reconcile the infant, the 1 year old, the clinically diagnosed imbecile.....how are they saved? The same way men have always been saved, by Gods grace, through faith!

[ September 02, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Scott. Thank you for the follow up. I appreciate your taking the time to provide your terrific thoughts. True regeneration occurs when GOD himself chooses us. At the moment we are "chosen," we are already instantly and eternally saved. If I’m right, then Eph. 1: 4 proves without a doubt that GOD himself chose us (therefore saved us) before the foundations of the world. Accordingly, our salvation is GUARANTEED and assured regardless of any human historical event.

If I’m wrong, then it would mean that the act of GOD choosing us, would alone and by itself have insufficient POWER to accomplish our salvation (which is impossible). The theory you suggest requires ANOTHER step beyond GOD’s choosing us. I see this as limiting GOD's power in his act of CHOOSING us. I see nothing in the Bible that suggests this can be so.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world according to Rev. 13: 8. The fact that it occurred “physically” at the cross two thousand years ago did not negate its POWER and majesty prior to that date. Otherwise, the “Old Testament” believers would have been unable to go home to be with GOD prior to the cross – which they did (Gen. 5: 24, Matt. 17: 2-3, Ecc. 12: 7, Luke 16: 23, etc). How could they have gone home to be with GOD prior to the cross? The theory you suggest would make that impossible. The Eph. 1: 4 truth makes it possible and a reality.

Can a child in the womb make a conscience confession of his/her faith? I say no. What if the child in the womb (GOD FORBID) did not survive? Would his/her salvation be thrown out the window? I say no. She would be saved because GOD already saved the child from before the foundation of the world as described in Eph. 1: 4. Otherwise, the child (GOD FORBID) would be lost.

Your previous example of John the Baptist is a good one. Did he make a “conscience confession” in the womb? I say no. He “leaped” in the womb because GOD had ALREADY saved him from before the foundation of the world.

Regarding the church “forefathers,” it is useful (to a very small degree) to study what they had to say. They had some good thoughts, yet they taught plenty of nonsense too. Studying ANYTHING other than the Bible itself can have the effect of distorting our doctrines towards those of the forefathers (or others) doctrines. Studying the teachings of any man increases our risk, and the peril, of embracing the “doctrines of men” which can be (and often are) different than the TRUTHS of the Bible (Matt. 15: 9, Luke 7: 7).

Calvin had some great ideas, but he appears to have been a cold-hearted dude, largely responsible for the death of a man who disagreed with him on theology. True, Calvin was a great theologian. However, everything that I’ve read about Calvin the man illustrated to me that he severely lacked the Galatians 5: 22-23 “fruit of the spirit.” His ideas about “salvation by Grace alone” were outstanding given the time (although any simple read of Ephesians, Galatians, Romans, etc would have revealed the same thing).

Luther also had some terrific ideas – and some VERY stupid ones too.

Bottom line is that the BIBLE is inerrant and perfect. This is obviously not the case with Calvin, Luther or any other man. Why settle for a Ford when you can have a Ferrari?

latterrain77

 

[Lorelei]

God is indeed Soveriegn, He can do whatever he wants, he controls all things. It was in His sovereign will to make man in his own image. Man then was given a choice, to obey God and live or to disobey God and die (Gen 2:17). Adam chose to disobey. That choice was his and his alone. God said "because you have done this, because you listened to you wife and ate", this is what must be done. The punishment was rendered because of Adam's choice.

Because of that sin, we are all born in a state of spiritual death, as Adam was, now we are. But God according to His own soveriegn design made a way that we could be made spiritually alive. His plan was to send His Son as a sacrifice for our sins, so that justice may be served. Death is the required justice(Rom 6:23), but through the death of one man, life is offered to all (1 Peter 3:18).

We still have the same choice that Adam did, to obey or disobey, to accept that life or to deny it. It doesn't make God less soveriegn because His plan works in spite of our choices! It makes Him less soveriegn to say that He can not work His plan if man does have a chioce. God can do what God wants to regardless of what choices we have. God is that powerful! God in his soveriegn grace made this plan.

John 3:16-19

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
NIV

Those who believe, are saved, those who do not believe are condemned. This then, requires that man has a choice. Are we then more soveriegn then God because we have a choice? By no means, we have the choice because God soveriegnly designed it to be so.

In order for God to hold man accountable according to His own plan and soveriegn design, they have to have the choice. Those who are too young to understand or mentally uncapable of doing so are protected by the blood of Christ. They can not be condemned because they can neither believe or believe not.

My reference to the Holy Spirit was to point out the following. The Holy Spirit is the same in the OT as in the New, but there is a difference in how one receives it. In the OT the Spirit was not a permanant indwelling, God gave and took it as was needed. Christ himself said that the comforter could not come until he had risen, but He certainly didn't mean that it had never been here! No, he was talking about the Spirit that now indwells believers permanantly because of Christ's death, ressurection and glorification. Now that he sits at the right hand of God, we have access to the comforter that will never leave us.

~Lorelei