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Saved Without Hearing The Gospel?

MrW

Well-Known Member
canadyjd asked: “@MrW, do you agree with SH that many are saved without hearing the gospel? Do you agree with him the gospel is not necessary for salvation?”

Before the Cross, yes. After the Cross, no. Acts 17:30.

God can save how He pleases. There is however, only one way that pleases God—preaching the Lord Jesus Christ—John 3:16, 14:6, 3:18, 3:36, 5:24, Romans 10:8-13. Please read all.

THAT is how God chooses to save—by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, through the foolishness of preaching the Gospel.

The theory of other ways was taught by C.S. Lewis. He was wrong.

If he was right, we don’t need missionaries, preachers, churches, nor even Bibles. I believe small children and the mentally incapable God takes care of, based on Scripture I read to that effect.

But post-Cross, you and I must believe on Christ, Acts 17:30.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
canadyjd asked: “@MrW, do you agree with SH that many are saved without hearing the gospel? Do you agree with him the gospel is not necessary

canadyjd asked: “@MrW, do you agree with SH that many are saved without hearing the gospel? Do you agree with him the gospel is not necessary for salvation?”

Before the Cross, yes. After the Cross, no. Acts 17:30.

God can save how He pleases. There is however, only one way that pleases God—preaching the Lord Jesus Christ—John 3:16, 14:6, 3:18, 3:36, 5:24, Romans 10:8-13. Please read all.

THAT is how God chooses to save—by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, through the foolishness of preaching the Gospel.

The theory of other ways was taught by C.S. Lewis. He was wrong.

If he was right, we don’t need missionaries, preachers, churches, nor even Bibles. I believe small children and the mentally incapable God takes care of, based on Scripture I read to that effect.

But post-Cross, you and I must believe on Christ, Acts 17:30.

When Rahab hid the Hebrew spies, and told them she knew their God was the only God, she had heard of the great things He had done for the Hebrews, she begged for her life and her family.

She knew nothing of Christ but Christ was present. They told her to lower a scarlet thread out of her window and they would not harm anyone in that house. That scarlet thread represented the Blood of Christ saving her physically and spiritually by faith.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
The OT Saints were saved by this same gospel… the “good news” that God would send His Messiah.
"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,
preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."
Galatians 3:8


I quote this stuff because, as I come across them, I believe they contain solid, sober stuff that we might learn from, but also so we can just pick them up and Preach from them.

First from:

"I. The agreement between Salvation in the Old Testament and New Testament:

"e. In the blessings of the Manifestation and Administration of the Covenant of Grace;

"They are the same under both Administrations.

"Salvation and Redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

"Justification by the Righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

"Forgiveness of sin through Faith in Christ, all the Prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

"Regeneration, Spiritual Circumcision, and Sanctification, were what men were made partakers of under the First, as under the Second Administration of the Covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

"Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

"In a word, they and we eat the same Spiritual Meat, and Drink the same Spiritual Drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4."

...
Then, about the necessity of the Gospel to be Preached:


"2c. Thirdly, The Instrumental Cause, or means of Conversion, is usually the Ministry of the Word; sometimes, indeed, it is wrought without the Word, by some remarkable awakening Providence or another, and sometimes by reading the Scriptures; but, for the most part, it is through the Preaching of the Word; hence ministers are said to "turn many to righteousness";

"and the apostle Paul says, he was sent by Christ into the Gentile world, to
"Turn men from darkness to Light, and from the power of Satan to God";

"and this is done both by the Preaching of the Law and of the Gospel;
"the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul", #Ps 19:7 though perhaps not the Law, strictly taken, but the whole Doctrine of the Word is there meant;

"however, the Preaching of the Law is made use of by the Spirit of God to Convince of sin; for "by the Law is the knowledge of sin"; and by means of it, when it enters into the heart and conscience, under His Influence, sin is made to appear exceeding sinful, and the soul is filled with great distress on account of it;

"for the "law worketh wrath"; though some take this to be rather preparatory to Conversion than Conversion itself, which may be better ascribed to the Gospel;

"and, indeed, the receiving of the Spirit, and His Graces, and particularly Faith, are attributed to the Preaching of the Gospel, and not to the Law, as the means thereof; "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law?" that is, by Preaching the Doctrine of Obedience to it;

"or by the hearing of Faith?" that is, by the Doctrine of the Gospel, Preaching Faith in Christ; which is therefore called "the word of faith", and by which it comes;

"for "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", #Ga 3:2 Ro 10:8,17 but then the Preaching of the Word of the Gospel is not sufficient of itself to produce the Work of Conversion in the heart; men may hear it, and not be Converted by it; nor receive any benefit, profit, and advantage through it;

"if it comes in Word only, and not with the Demonstration of the Spirit, and of Power; and when it is Accompanied with the Power of God; or is made the Power of God unto Salvation, even then it is only an Instrument, and not an Efficient; for "who is Paul, or who is Apollos, but ministers, or instruments, by whom ye believed?" #1Co 3:5
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
I believe small children and the mentally incapable God takes care of, based on Scripture I read to that effect.
Just to say this about that: I believe the Scripture to that effect would be John the Baptist Saved in his mother's womb, as well as Jeremiah. We know John the Baptist heard and was Given an Intellectual and Spiritual Understanding, because he leaped, as only a Saved soul could and would do, when he heard Mary say she was with child with the Promised Messiah.

There, does God Give Intellectual and Spiritual Understanding to Give the New Birth to whom He Will, regardless of whether they are "small children and the mentally incapable"?

I believe that would hold True with the fact that "You Must be Born Again".
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
When Rahab hid the Hebrew spies, and told them she knew their God was the only God, she had heard of the great things He had done for the Hebrews, she begged for her life and her family.

She knew nothing of Christ but Christ was present. They told her to lower a scarlet thread out of her window and they would not harm anyone in that house. That scarlet thread represented the Blood of Christ saving her physically and spiritually by faith.
Yes, but she didn’t know about Christ. Old Testament Saints were not born again as New Testament Saints are. Christ did not indwell them. They did not know that He would suffer and die, and be resurrected, because of their sins. God winked at man’s ignorance in the past, but now He has commanded all to repent and come to the knowledge of the truth. And the truth is that Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved. Old Testament Saints were kept in paradise until Christ was resurrected, and then He took them to heaven. Today, when a believer dies, he is carried straight to heaven.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
@Alan Dale Gross made this comment.
"There, does God Give Intellectual and Spiritual Understanding to Give the New Birth to whom He Will, regardless of whether they are "small children and the mentally incapable"? "

Why leave out or those that have been convicted of their sin or only know of Him through His creation?

As I said before those that have the gospel presented to them have the responsibility to make a choice.

We also know that one of God’s purposes in revealing Himself in Creation and history is that people would seek Him Romans_1:19-20 so man has no excuse.

Act 17:27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

Has God changed? Has He hidden Himself from man since NT times? He is immanent and not so far removed that He cannot be found.

Act 17:30 Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent.

I am always amazed that those that will say God is sovereign then will restrict how God can be sovereign.

Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

Pro_3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;
Pro_3:6 in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight.
Pro_3:7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

What do we see in James?
Jas_4:6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."
Jas_4:7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Jas_4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Does scripture teach that under the New Covenant, the lost must believe at least some of the aspects of the gospel of Christ to be saved? Yes!

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone "believing into Him" would not perish but have everlasting life.

Thus John 3:16 teaches we must believe some things about Jesus to be saved. In John 1:12 we see we must "receive" (i.e. not reject) Christ, we must believe into His name, referring to His divinity, Messianic mission, virgin birth, sinless life, perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, His bodily resurrection from the dead, and His ascension into Heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father.

No one comes to Jesus unless drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness expressed by the gospel) and all who come not only heard but learned (paid heed to the requirements of the gospel). Such as making Christ our overriding priority, no matter the cost in suffering.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
When Rahab hid the Hebrew spies, and told them she knew their God was the only God, she had heard of the great things He had done for the Hebrews, she begged for her life and her family.

She knew nothing of Christ but Christ was present. They told her to lower a scarlet thread out of her window and they would not harm anyone in that house. That scarlet thread represented the Blood of Christ saving her physically and spiritually by faith.
Scripture does not reveal everything Rahab knew or believed about God. It is simply a great assumption to claim she knew nothing of the promised Messiah.

Hebrews 11:13 is clear the OT saints saw the promises of God (concerning His Messiah), from afar and were persuaded..

Hebrews 11:40 tells us they are not made perfect apart from us.

The OT saints were saved the same way we are, by God’s grace through faith in the promised Messiah.

There has never been various ways of salvation.

Peace to you
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Does scripture teach that under the New Covenant, the lost must believe at least some of the aspects of the gospel of Christ to be saved? Yes!….

Thus John 3:16 teaches we must believe some things about Jesus to be saved. …
There is a heresy of “mental assent” called sandemanism (sp?) and that is being expressed here.

@Van changes to words of our Lord Jesus to fit his secular philosophy. Jesus you must “born again” by God Holy Spirit. @Van says you you must believe “some aspects” of the gospel.



No one comes to Jesus unless drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness expressed by the gospel) and all who come not only heard but learned (paid heed to the requirements of the gospel). Such as making Christ our overriding priority, no matter the cost in suffering.
Again, @Van changes scripture to fit his secular philosophy, denying the Words of our Lord Jesus.

Jesus says we are drawn by God Holy Spirit. @Van says we are drawn by God’s loving kindness expressed by the gospel. He changes the external work of Almighty God into an internal effort by the man.

Let all beware the secular philosophies of some posters on this board. Do not be led astray.

Peace to you
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Scripture does not reveal everything Rahab knew or believed about God. It is simply a great assumption to claim she knew nothing of the promised Messiah.

Hebrews 11:13 is clear the OT saints saw the promises of God (concerning His Messiah), from afar and were persuaded..

Hebrews 11:40 tells us they are not made perfect apart from us.

The OT saints were saved the same way we are, by God’s grace through faith in the promised Messiah.

There has never been various ways of salvation.

Peace to you

Let's take the Syrian general, Naaman for example. I think it was a form of leprosy he had, if I remember correctly.

In his household was a young Jewish servant that told him she knew of a prophet in Israel that could heal him. Finally Naaman went to Israel to find this prophet.

Cutting the story short, Naaman was healed and said, now I know that there is one God in Israel. He was saved by faith in Jehovah God, his sins were covered by the coming Messiah.

He was saved the same way as Abraham, justified by faith in believing God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

He was saved by the knowledge available at the time he lived, along with so many more.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Let's take the Syrian general, Naaman for example. I think it was a form of leprosy he had, if I remember correctly.

In his household was a young Jewish servant that told him she knew of a prophet in Israel that could heal him. Finally Naaman went to Israel to find this prophet.

Cutting the story short, Naaman was healed and said, now I know that there is one God in Israel. He was saved by faith in Jehovah God, his sins were covered by the coming Messiah.

He was saved the same way as Abraham, justified by faith in believing God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

He was saved by the knowledge available at the time he lived, along with so many more.
You are simply incorrect there was no gospel before the OT Law. The coming Messiah was a prophecy in the Garden before man was cast out.

The promise of the coming Messiah is prevalent throughout the OT. Hebrews 11 is very clear, the OT saints saw the promises of God from afar and they are not made perfect apart from us.

You are close to saying people respond to the light they had, which is a dangerous idea that can lead to all kinds of heresy.

Peace to you
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
You are simply incorrect there was no gospel before the OT Law. The coming Messiah was a prophecy in the Garden before man was cast out.

The promise of the coming Messiah is prevalent throughout the OT. Hebrews 11 is very clear, the OT saints saw the promises of God from afar and they are not made perfect apart from us.

You are close to saying people respond to the light they had, which is a dangerous idea that can lead to all kinds of heresy.

Peace to you

Oh man, we in this present dispensation of Grace with the knowledge given to us through the NT Scripture have tons of knowledge Naaman didn't have in the dispensation in which he lived. Simply believing in God in not enough, we have instructions from God what we must do to be saved that they didn't have.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Oh man, we in this present dispensation of Grace with the knowledge given to us through the NT Scripture have tons of knowledge Naaman didn't have in the dispensation in which he lived. Simply believing in God in not enough, we have instructions from God what we must do to be saved that they didn't have.
Again, Hebrews 11 is clear.

We are not saved by what we do. That is a works based salvation. We are saved when we respond with faith to what God has done for us, by the power of God Holy Spirit, in regeneration, drawing and conviction us of the truth of our Lord Jesus and our own sin that separates us from God.

Again, not what we do, but responding to what God has done.

Peace to you
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
@Alan Dale Gross made this comment.
"There, does God Give Intellectual and Spiritual Understanding to Give the New Birth to whom He Will, regardless of whether they are "small children and the mentally incapable"? "

Why leave out or those that have been convicted of their sin or only know of Him through His creation?

As I said before those that have the gospel presented to them have the responsibility to make a choice.

We also know that one of God’s purposes in revealing Himself in Creation and history is that people would seek Him Romans_1:19-20 so man has no excuse.

Act 17:27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

Has God changed? Has He hidden Himself from man since NT times? He is immanent and not so far removed that He cannot be found.

Act 17:30 Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent.

I am always amazed that those that will say God is sovereign then will restrict how God can be sovereign.

Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

Pro_3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;
Pro_3:6 in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight.
Pro_3:7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

What do we see in James?
Jas_4:6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."
Jas_4:7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Jas_4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
It’s impossible to be more clear than this;
Acts 17:30; John 14:6; Acts 4:12.

Will we be like the pope, and start believing muslims and brothers and sisters in Christ?

The Bible says all in Adam are dead. All in CHRIST are alive. Christ is the Ark. Everyone not in the Ark are lost.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Again, Hebrews 11 is clear.

We are not saved by what we do. That is a works based salvation. We are saved when we respond with faith to what God has done for us, by the power of God Holy Spirit, in regeneration, drawing and conviction us of the truth of our Lord Jesus and our own sin that separates us from God.

Again, not what we do, but responding to what God has done.

Peace to you

Come on! Naaman did the same exact thing Abraham did, no works, he believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.

Just as Abraham, Naaman was saved by the available knowledge of God at the time he lived.
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
Silverhair asked: “Why leave out or those that have been convicted of their sin or only know of Him through His creation?”

Why not call muslims, hindus, buddhists, and atheists Christians? Because they’re NOT!

God does not wink at ignorance anymore. There is one way to God for the lost—Jesus! You cannot climb into the sheepfold any other way.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Silverhair asked: “Why leave out or those that have been convicted of their sin or only know of Him through His creation?”

Why not call muslims, hindus, buddhists, and atheists Christians? Because they’re NOT!

God does not wink at ignorance anymore. There is one way to God for the lost—Jesus! You cannot climb into the sheepfold any other way.

That is with the available knowledge we have now. But what about 4000 years ago, the Gentiles who had nothing but God's creation to recognize Him? Did God say, you didn't accept Christ as your Savior and off the Hell you go?

No, He didn't. God is the sending business, we see Him in Scripture sending someone no matter where they are to bring them salvation.

Those who recognized God's creation and humbled themselves, were sent someone by God, or He had another way to bring them to the knowledge of salvation. They were not passed by.
 

5 point Gillinist

Active Member
The OT Saints were saved by this same gospel… the “good news” that God would send His Messiah.

We are privileged to live to see the Messiah come, and the fruit of His ministry, life and sacrafice, but the OT saints are not made perfect apart from the gospel.

Peace to you
The suffering servant was well known throughout the OT, as was a knowledge of the gospel, as was the coming Messiah. The Jews concept of a political Messiah during Jesus time was not a concept of the Prophets (at least not in the sense the Jews at the time desired). I don't know how anyone could miss the gospel written throughout the Old Testament, much less think OT saints were somehow ignorant of it.
 
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