Saving Faith a gift? Part Deux

[SavedByGrace]

This foolishness here is a flat out lie. Mark 1:15 says to repent and believe in the gospel. Calvinists teach it, believe it, preach it from the pulpit.



Correct, they chose to reject it. We’ve never said anything to the contrary. You’re just making things up as you go along lying about our beliefs and trying to smear our beliefs.

You quoted Acts of the Apostles 13:46 but left off…When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[Acts of the Apostles 13:48]

So, you are saying that all sinners must REPENT of their sins, and BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ, so that they can be saved? If you look at many of my posts here, you will see that I have quoted Mark 1:15 many times, and have been told by your reformed buddies, that this does not apply!

If people CHOSE to reject the Gospel, then they must have FREE WILLS to do this!

According to the Greek of Acts 13:46-48, the verb τεταγμένοι used here, can be used in the middle voice, rather than the passive. This agrees with the actions of the Jews THEMSELVES, as it states in verse 46, who REJECTED the Gospel. On the other hand, we are told, that the Gentiles, "they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord", and ACCEPTED this same Gospel Message. This means that it was because of their ACCEPTING of the Gospel, that they "enrolled" THEMSELVES with the Lord! There is no objetion to this, unless it is from ones personal theology!

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is interesting that sbg acknowledges humans cannot be saved unless God moves them to believe

No, I have never said this! What I have said many times, is that God the Holy Spirit CONVICTS the sinner through the preaching of the Gospel Message, as we read in Acts chapter 2. But, the sinner can still RESIST this Gospel Message, as we read in Acts chapter 7!

 

[1689Dave]

So, you are saying that all sinners must REPENT of their sins, and BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ, so that they can be saved? If you look at many of my posts here, you will see that I have quoted Mark 1:15 many times, and have been told by your reformed buddies, that this does not apply!

If people CHOSE to reject the Gospel, then they must have FREE WILLS to do this!

According to the Greek of Acts 13:46-48, the verb τεταγμένοι used here, can be used in the middle voice, rather than the passive. This agrees with the actions of the Jews THEMSELVES, as it states in verse 46, who REJECTED the Gospel. On the other hand, we are told, that the Gentiles, "they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord", and ACCEPTED this same Gospel Message. This means that it was because of their ACCEPTING of the Gospel, that they "enrolled" THEMSELVES with the Lord! There is no objetion to this, unless it is from ones personal theology!

What about those God blinded so they could not believe and be saved? Or the reason Jesus spoke in parables so they could not be saved? Free will trusts in the arm of the flesh for salvation, and we know this does not work.

 

[agedman]

Here is the blindness of some of the "reformed/calvinists"

God, they say, gives the elect saving faith, so that they can then believe in Him.

Simply put. God does the believing for the elect!!!

So, according to this WARPED theology, when God says to love Him, He first GIVES us His Love, and then we love Him

We are a bunch of brainless/heartless ROBOTS!

This is the UTTER UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE that these teach, and PRETEND that it comes from the Word of God!

I realize you don’t want my opinion, but will you take the Scripture statement below and show just how your thinking fits?

1Therefore we also, having such a great cloud of witnesses encompassing us, having laid aside every weight and the sin easily entangling, should run with endurance the race lying before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who in view of the joy lying before Him endured the cross, having despised its shame, and sat down at right hand of the throne of God. 3For consider fully the One having endured such great hostility from sinners against Himself, so that you shall not grow weary, fainting in your souls.
​

I suppose what I am asking is considering that the verse tells of Jesus being the founder (author) and perfector (finisher) of our faith, then what was this faith founded and perfected if it was not gifted by the Romans statement concerning the hearing of the Word?

 

[SavedByGrace]

What about those God blinded so they could not believe and be saved? Or the reason Jesus spoke in parables so they could not be saved? Free will trusts in the arm of the flesh for salvation, and we know this does not work.

Now, here is something very interesting.

In Isaiah 6:9-10, according to the Hebrew text, God Commands Isaiah to perform the actions of "making the hearts fat...and their ears heavy...and shutting their eyes". The Hebrew verbs here are in the second person, singular, and of the imperative mode, so that Isaiah is Commanded to perform the actions named.

In John’s Gospel in the Greek, which differs from both the Hebrew, as well as the (LXX), we have the 3rd person, singular, and in the indicative mood, thereby making the actions refer directly to God, and not the Prophet Isaiah, as it is in the Hebrew OT passage.

However, in Matthew 13, where Jesus quotes the Words from Isaiah, and Acts 28, where Paul is quoting the same passage, the verbs are in the 3rd person, plural, and of the indicative mood, so that it is the people themselves, who perform the actions named. Where it reads, "their eyes they have closed".

It is clear from Jesus, and Paul, that the people who heard the Gospel preached, had CLOSED THEIR OWN EYES! This is a clear CHOICE that they made.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, “and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Here we have those who hear the Truth of the Gospel Message, that is for their salvation, but themselves refuse to accept this Truth, and thrust it from them, as in Acts 13:46. It is then, that God “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion”, so that they believe their lies. These refused to believe the Gospel Message, because their “pleasure” was in their unrighteous deeds of darkness, that is, their sinful lives!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I realize you don’t want my opinion, but will you take the Scripture statement below and show just how your thinking fits?

1Therefore we also, having such a great cloud of witnesses encompassing us, having laid aside every weight and the sin easily entangling, should run with endurance the race lying before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who in view of the joy lying before Him endured the cross, having despised its shame, and sat down at right hand of the throne of God. 3For consider fully the One having endured such great hostility from sinners against Himself, so that you shall not grow weary, fainting in your souls.
​

I suppose what I am asking is considering that the verse tells of Jesus being the founder (author) and perfector (finisher) of our faith, then what was this faith founded and perfected if it was not gifted by the Romans statement concerning the hearing of the Word?

In case you missed the title of this OP, it says, "Saving Faith a gift?"

I am not disputing or denying that it is God Who must take the first step in the conversion of the sinner. Hence He has Commanded the Preaching of the Gospel for the salvation of all sinners.

I have already said this so many times, that IF, as you and others claim, that Saving Faith is a Gift from God, given only to to the elect, so that they can believe and get saved. Then, HOW can Jesus Himself say in John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God"? Here Jesus says very clearly, the person who BELIEVES, is not condemned. However, the person who DOES NOT BELIEVE, is condemned for their UNBELIEF? BUT, if these were not given this Gift of Saving Faith, then it is very UNJUST to condemn them for NOT BELIEVING, because they simply CANNOT!

If you were to tell your child to do something, knowing that they cannot, and they try their hardest, and cannot; will you punish them for failing because they could not do what was IMPOSSIBLE for them to do in the first place? How many parents would punish their children for this?

What reformed theology teaches, is the making of the God of the Bible, to be UNFAIR and UNJUST. Which is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[AustinC]

No, I have never said this! What I have said many times, is that God the Holy Spirit CONVICTS the sinner through the preaching of the Gospel Message, as we read in Acts chapter 2. But, the sinner can still RESIST this Gospel Message, as we read in Acts chapter 7!

Ah...thanks for the clarification.
The Holy Spirit, in your view, does even less than I gave you credit for thinking. In your view, the Holy Spirit doesn't actually move them, He just pokes them to make them aware that God is real. After that, it's all on the shoulders of the human. Either they perform the legal requirements of repentance and self-willed belief or they don't perform this legal requirement. If they do the legal requirement, then God will move to save. If they don't do the legal requirement then God won't move and those humans will die in their sins.

Of course I expect you to complain about this portrayal of your position, mainly because it peels away the facade of what you teach. You like to put lipstick on a pig and call it grace when it's still works.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ah...thanks for the clarification.
The Holy Spirit, in your view, does even less than I gave you credit for thinking. In your view, the Holy Spirit doesn't actually move them, He just pokes them to make them aware that God is real. After that, it's all on the shoulders of the human. Either they perform the legal requirements of repentance and self-willed belief or they don't perform this legal requirement. If they do the legal requirement, then God will move to save. If they don't do the legal requirement then God won't move and those humans will die in their sins.

Of course I expect you to complain about this portrayal of your position, mainly because it peels away the facade of what you teach. You like to put lipstick on a pig and call it grace when it's still works.

Dude, see what you fellow "reformer" says in # 17

"This foolishness here is a flat out lie. Mark 1:15 says to repent and believe in the gospel. Calvinists teach it, believe it, preach it from the pulpit."

See, I am not the only one saying that BOTH Repenting and Believing is required! "Calvinists teach it, believe it, preach it from the pulpit.". Go figure the confused theology that you guys teach!

 

[AustinC]

I am not disputing or denying that it is God Who must take the first step in the conversion of the sinner. Hence He has Commanded the Preaching of the Gospel for the salvation of all sinners.

And there is the elective work of God.

God doesn't take any step toward anyone who will not be saved.
Notice what God says...

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world.
~ Hebrews 4:3

Notice the Sovereign will of God in salvation.

 

[agedman]

In case you missed the title of this OP, it says, "Saving Faith a gift?"

I am not disputing or denying that it is God Who must take the first step in the conversion of the sinner. Hence He has Commanded the Preaching of the Gospel for the salvation of all sinners.

I have already said this so many times, that IF, as you and others claim, that Saving Faith is a Gift from God, given only to to the elect, so that they can believe and get saved. Then, HOW can Jesus Himself say in John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God"? Here Jesus says very clearly, the person who BELIEVES, is not condemned. However, the person who DOES NOT BELIEVE, is condemned for their UNBELIEF? BUT, if these were not given this Gift of Saving Faith, then it is very UNJUST to condemn them for NOT BELIEVING, because they simply CANNOT!

If you were to tell your child to do something, knowing that they cannot, and they try their hardest, and cannot; will you punish them for failing because they could not do what was IMPOSSIBLE for them to do in the first place? How many parents would punish their children for this?

What reformed theology teaches, is the making of the God of the Bible, to be UNFAIR and UNJUST. Which is IMPOSSIBLE.

Am I misinformed concerning the word “faith” and “belief” being the same in the original language?

If it is, then does that not call for some moderation of the thinking?

 

[SavedByGrace]

And there is the elective work of God.

God doesn't take any step toward anyone who will not be saved.
Notice what God says...

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world.
~ Hebrews 4:3

Notice the Sovereign will of God in salvation.

did you know, that in the OT, the Jews were the apple of God's Eye, His Chosen People, His Own Possession, etc, etc.

Guess what, God REJECTED His own People, the Jews!!!

 

[agedman]

did you know, that in the OT, the Jews were the apple of God's Eye, His Chosen People, His Own Possession, etc, etc.

Guess what, God REJECTED His own People, the Jews!!!

This post doesn’t conform to Romans 11 does it?

1I ask, then did God reject His people? Never may it be! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone have been left, and they are seeking my life”?

4But what was the divine answer spoken to him? “I have left to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5So then also, in the present time, there has been a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, it is no longer from works; otherwise grace no longer would be grace.

7What then? What Israel is seeking, this it has not obtained, but the elect obtained it. And the rest were hardened, 8as it has been written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes not to see,
and ears not to hear,
unto this very day.”​

 

[SavedByGrace]

Am I misinformed concerning the word “faith” and “belief” being the same in the original language?

If it is, then does that not call for some moderation of the thinking?

John 3:18, πιστεύω,
Romans 10:17, πίστις

The former is from the latter, with the same base meanings.

 

[SavedByGrace]

This post doesn’t conform to Romans 11 does it?

1I ask, then did God reject His people? Never may it be! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone have been left, and they are seeking my life”?

4But what was the divine answer spoken to him? “I have left to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5So then also, in the present time, there has been a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, it is no longer from works; otherwise grace no longer would be grace.

7What then? What Israel is seeking, this it has not obtained, but the elect obtained it. And the rest were hardened, 8as it has been written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes not to see,
and ears not to hear,
unto this very day.”​

look at # 25. I have dealt with this!

 

[agedman]

John 3:18, πιστεύω,
Romans 10:17, πίστις

The former is from the latter, with the same base meanings.

Then it would follow that the hearing are empowered to believe (given faith) would it not?

 

[AustinC]

Dude, see what you fellow "reformer" says in # 17

"This foolishness here is a flat out lie. Mark 1:15 says to repent and believe in the gospel. Calvinists teach it, believe it, preach it from the pulpit."

See, I am not the only one saying that BOTH Repenting and Believing is required! "Calvinists teach it, believe it, preach it from the pulpit.". Go figure the confused theology that you guys teach!

Dude, you have no clue about God's Mosaic Covenant with Israel. If you did, you would see the connection between Mark 1:15 and Joshua 24:19-20

Then Joshua warned the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy and jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you abandon the Lord and serve other gods, he will turn against you and destroy you, even though he has been so good to you.”

Mark 1:15
“The time promised by God has come at last!” he announced. “The Kingdom of God is near! Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!”

Now look at what the writer of Hebrews tells us.

Hebrews 4:3
For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world.

Perhaps, one day, you will study the covenants of God so that you actually understand what Jesus was saying to the people of Israel. Then perhaps you will see your blatant error, which we see you making.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Then it would follow that the hearing are empowered to believe (given faith) would it not?

answered in # 26, and in MANY other places!

 

[agedman]

look at # 25. I have dealt with this!

I understand post 25; however, the Roman’s passage does not indicate human action, but that directly from God.

Such is also seen in John’s reference to Isaiah. Where some see it as human reaction to light such as a child might cover their head when the bedroom light is turned on, some see it as God blinding the eyes so they have no recognition of the light being on or not.

Does it not follow good understanding to take both the Romans and the John reference to Isaiah as God’s purposed plan, and not God reacting to humans?

Would that not make the attributes of God more confirmed action rather then bringing them into doubt by God reacting?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Dude, you have no clue about God's Mosaic Covenant with Israel. If you did, you would see the connection between Mark 1:15 and Joshua 24:19-20

I suppose when Peter preached under the New Covenant in Acts chapter 2, which is POST Jesus' Resurrection and Ascension, that he did not know what he was saying, according to you guys!

Again I quote verse 37, "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart (CONVICTED by The Holy Spirit), and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we DO?”. I mean, DO you get this?

See Peters own words that ANSWERED this:

"Peter said to them, “REPENT, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (verse 38)

This, is NEW TESTAMENT and NOT the OLD!!!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I understand post 25; however, the Roman’s passage does not indicate human action, but that directly from God.

Such is also seen in John’s reference to Isaiah. Where some see it as human reaction to light such as a child might cover their head when the bedroom light is turned on, some see it as God blinding the eyes so they have no recognition of the light being on or not.

Does it not follow good understanding to take both the Romans and the John reference to Isaiah as God’s purposed plan, and not God reacting to humans?

Would that not make the attributes of God more confirmed action rather then bringing them into doubt by God reacting?

HaHa!!!

You on PURPOSE, for your THEOLOGY, IGNORE the FACT, that when Jesus, God Himself, and the Apostle Paul quote the words, they do NOT in Matthew and Acts, go to the MT Hebrew text, but to the Hebrew that the LXX was based on. Here is it very clear, THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED". NOT God!