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Featured Saving Faith: God’s Gift to Sinners or Sinners’ Gift to God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Feb 16, 2015.

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  1. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your comments. Please show me exactly where it is I went beyond what is biblical.

    I simply applied biblical truths in a systematic way to prove salvation is all of grace, including spiritual saving faith.

    Below is yet another analogy used by Jesus to prove that which I have stated earlier: it is impossible for that which is good to come out of that which is evil.

    Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


    In context Jesus was speaking of true regenerated Christians vs. false unregenerate Christians. Jesus is comparing a tree to the heart.

    Scripture declares all unregenerate men evil as well as their hearts.

    Thus, by default all unregenerate men are like corrupt trees whose fruit is always evil.

    It is impossible for the unregenerate sinner to bring forth good fruit, which would include the good fruit of saving faith in Christ.

    Furthermore, it is God the Father who plants the good trees which bear good fruit.

    This is yet another analogy describing regeneration – the giving of a new heart which then makes the fruit of the ‘tree’/man good.

    This is the gracious, unmerited divine work of the Father independent of anything in man.

    But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am so honored to have my name mentioned here. I haven't even posted in this thread.
    Here are two questions.
    Where in the Scripture, in context of salvation or the unsaved, does it say that faith is a gift of God? Could you please demonstrate this to me. I haven't seen it yet.

    Secondly, where does it say that regeneration produces faith? You got me on that one too. That's Calvin's belief, but I have never seen it in the Bible.
     
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Well, not exactly. You stated your own conclusions, basically did a rewrite. So my question is, why didn't the Apostles just say it like you say it? Problem solved!! No controversy, No division.

    All God needed to do was have Paul say it like you said it here above. End of controversy!!!
     
  4. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    The OP Parts 1-3 deal with this very question. Please study the logic and post a refutation, if possible.

    There are various synonyms used which mean the same thing: born again, quickened, resurrected, made alive in Christ....are a few.

    Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    Regeneration must precede saving faith because saving faith is hope, trust and confidence in Jesus Christ, the King of the Kingdom of God. Unless one is born of the Spirit it is impossible to see, discern, or comprehend Jesus Christ or His Kingdom.

    All men are born of the flesh -- carnal.

    Carnal cannot comprehend spiritual.....let alone trust in a saving way that of which they are naturally ignorant and blind.

    Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

    Those with saving faith have been born of God.

    Scripture does not say, 'Everyone who believes in Jesus is the Christ will soon thereafter be born of God.'
     
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Why did Paul write the following to Timothy?


    (emphasis mine in both quotes)
     
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    If we clean this post up a bit I can say AMEN!!!!

    Here it is....



    Amen!!!
     
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    not sure what you are getting at. I don't think I ever said don't preach and don't use the word to teach. Hey, we already agreed that man's commentary always has the possibility that it is in error. :wavey:
     
  8. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    I cannot but wonder why it is that you cannot disprove the logic since you are so adamant it is a 'rewrite.'

    I simply started with easily interpreted truths and used those truths as a means of interpreting other more controversial truths.

    Please state where my interpretations are in error and why.

    I admit Scripture has many levels of understanding.

    What we seek in these forums is to elevate minds to understand the deeper things of God.

    We all seek to know the mind of God as revealed in His Word.

    In this OP as well as all my OPs I seek to use only Scripture as my authority, explaining why I used a particular Scripture as I did.
     
  9. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    What is preaching?
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Faith and hope are two entirely different things.
    "And now abideth faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love."
    Paul wasn't being redundant. He differentiated between these three for a reason.
    This doesn't prove why the new birth precedes faith. You are just stating it as a fact. It isn't.
    Carnal means of the flesh. Unsaved men are carnal indeed.
    So are Christians who are not growing in the Lord, who are outside of the will of God, who are worldly in their ways, etc. There are many "carnal Christians" in this world, and Paul wrote an epistle to a church full of them in his first epistle to the Corinthians.
    Are you sure about that?
    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    --Those that received him, that believed on his name were given the authority to become the children of God. Those are the ones which were born of God.
    1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    --One is born again through the Word of God, not without it.
    It is absolutely necessary for the Holy Spirit to work through the Word of God in order to be born again. When He does the message must be received by faith, thereby faith preceding regeneration.
    --You are simply making assumptions that are not in the Word of God.
    Nowhere does it say regeneration produces faith, neither precedes faith.
     
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
     
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I think certain topics such as Calvinism and Arminianism make for some entertaining past time, but what we ought to ultimately seek is a deeper relationship with God and to be about our Father's business.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The OP doesn't say much about faith being from God.
    What it does is declare over and over again that salvation is by grace alone. Well that's fine. I thought that a person with your moniker would realize that there is more than one "sola." Why pit sola gratia against the other "solas"? Is it greater, more important? Don't the others matter?

    Here they are:
    Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
    Sola fide ("by faith alone")
    Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
    Solus Christus ("through Christ alone")
    Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

    Sola gratia is but one of these.
    Sola fide is still another. You proposed that salvation is by grace alone. But that is all you said. The Reformers also said it was by faith alone. Or are you not in agreement?
     
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be preached, but that is not preaching. Preaching is the proclamation of religious truth and principles. It demands explanation of the content of the preaching; i.e. explaining; or should I daresay, commentary.
     
  15. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Isn't the gospel of Jesus Christ religious truth and principles?
     
  16. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Of course. But is the Gospel just proclaiming John 3:16 in front of the congregation and then saying, "Thank you all for coming this morning. You are dismissed."?
     
    #36 Reformed, Feb 21, 2015
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  17. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    And then ole steaver can run and get in line for the chicken n dumplings...
     
  18. Robert William

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    Protestant, do you believe regeneration precedes faith.

    Regeneration Precedes Faith
    by R. C. Sproul
    One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."
    These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:
    "Faith - rebirth -justification."
    I hadn’t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.
    No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.
    This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.
    A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -
    means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.
    The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.
    When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.
    These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
    This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.
     
    #38 Robert William, Feb 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2015
  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You edited this post. Before you edited it you accused Protestant of Pelagianism. Do you know what Pelagianism is? Pelagius taught that humans are born tabula rasa (blank slate); i.e. they are born without original sin. Ergo, they can live a sinless life and merit God's favor without the need of an alien righteousness. Pelagius was rightly labeled as a heretic.

    Protestant said this in post #14:

    I think you need not be worried about Protestant being a Pelagian.
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    That has been your attitude for nearly 8,00 posts.
     
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