Saving faith?

[seekingthetruth]

Sorry if I worded that badly, I tried to clarify but obviously failed, the Arminian position (one of them) is that God Elects those who he knows will trust IN HIM. It is not God trusting them, or finding something trustworthy in them so he saves them. Both of these could theoretically be called CONDITIONAL ELECTION:
-One, in which God "has faith in one person" and so elects them. (nobody believes this)
-two, in which God sees a person's faith IN HIM, and so elects them. (Arm.)
***However, you are correct that I needlessly muddied the waters on that one.

I was trying to point out that NEITHER the Arminian nor the Calvinist believes that God saves us because of HIS faith in us.

OK, I am neither Cal nor Arminian and maybe that is why I dont understand either position.

You keep using the term "elect" which is probably my biggest misunderstanding of both Cal/Arm positions. i believe the elect are nothing more than the body of Christ. Not specifically chosen, but rewarded with mercy and Grace for exercising their God given faith.

But if we say that we are incapable of faith, then the faith has to come from somewhere??? It has to come from God. So far, I am with you. But??? If God only gives this faith to some and withholds it from others, doesnt that mean that He has more faith in one person than another?

I believe that God gives us all a measure of faith at birth and that it is up to us to use it. When we use it, the HS grows it.

But if we are born with zero capability of having faith in God, then isnt any faith that God gives us His to begin with? Which boils down to God's favotites. Why in turn means the ones He has faith in. It's God's faith before He gives it to us, so if we believe the Cal position of election, then our salvation is based on God's faith in us since we cannot have faith in Him.

John

 

[12strings]

OK, I am neither Cal nor Arminian and maybe that is why I dont understand either position.

You keep using the term "elect" which is probably my biggest misunderstanding of both Cal/Arm positions. i believe the elect are nothing more than the body of Christ. Not specifically chosen, but rewarded with mercy and Grace for exercising their God given faith.

The problem is that the word "elect" means "one of the chosen." And the bible speaks of Christians as being "chosen of God." Now, Cals say he does this on his own, and that this choice determines whether or not we have faith in Him. Arms say God choses or "elects" those who have faith in Him.

But if we say that we are incapable of faith, then the faith has to come from somewhere??? It has to come from God. So far, I am with you. But??? If God only gives this faith to some and withholds it from others, doesnt that mean that He has more faith in one person than another?

A Calvinist would disagree with this because of a belief called UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION: that is, God chooses us not based on any difference between me and the next guy, but solely because of this sovereign choice. So God looks at me and another guy, and doesn't see any reason to have faith in either one of us, but he chooses one, or both of us.

I believe that God gives us all a measure of faith at birth and that it is up to us to use it. When we use it, the HS grows it.

But if we are born with zero capability of having faith in God, then isnt any faith that God gives us His to begin with? Which boils down to God's favotites. Why in turn means the ones He has faith in. It's God's faith before He gives it to us, so if we believe the Cal position of election, then our salvation is based on God's faith in us since we cannot have faith in Him.

I'm trying to understand your use of "God's faith in us". If you mean, "God puts the ability to have faith INTO me so that I can trust him" that would be an accurate description of Calvinist views. If you mean, "God trusts me more than the next guy" then it would not be an accurate description of Calvinist views.

 

[Winman]

If you mean, "God puts the ability to have faith INTO me so that I can trust him" that would be an accurate description of Calvinist views.

Yes, what most Calvinists believe is that a man is spiritually dead like a corpse. A corpse cannot believe (or do anything else). They believe a man must be made spiritually alive to have the ability to believe.

The Arminian view is that man is depraved in sin, yet he retains the ability to believe when he is convicted and convinced by the word of God and the drawing of the Spirit.

Arminians think of spiritual death as a state of separation from God, but not a lack of ability.

Calvinists tend to view spiritual death as similar to physical death and lack of ability.

 

[percho]

Whose faith saves us?

I believe that it s my faith in God that saved me.

Cals say that it is not possible for me to have faith in God unless God gives it to me. Which means all faith comes from God and zero from us. If that is true then why would God have faith in me when I cannot possibly have any in him?

So, what actually saves us? Our faith in God or God's faith in us?

John

Please go through a little exercise with me and let's see what we can discover.

All please join in.

Our Pastor allows our Youth Pastor to preach on the first Sunday night of each month. A small congregation of 75 - 100 at night.

This past Sunday he preached from Numbers 14 when the spies returned from spying out the land and the people rejected going onto the land.

God was irate to say the very least.

Num. 14:9-10 Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they [are] bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the LORD [is] with us: fear them not. But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

God's reaction 11_12 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

God wanted to kill them off and start over with Moses and build a nation from him. But Moses argued with God about that which is another story I would love to delve into with you all. However staying on topic, these people had moaned and groaned from the time they had left Egypt. As God said above they had never believed God and had provoked him at every turn. They built the idol while Moses was on the mountain, They did not do as told concerning the manna.
Before crossing the sea they were whining and crying about being brought into the wilderness to die. Be thou still and see the salvation of the LORD.


God had promised about a seed of woman. God had called Abram changed his name to Abraham and told him that this seed would come from his, Abraham's loins. God had told Abraham his people would be 430 years in a strange land. To the very day they left that land. They come to the sea and they whine and cry.

By faith, they passed through the Red sea as by dry [land]: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

I put that comer after faith. Why? Do you believe for one nano second that faith there has anything to do with the feeling, belief emotion or anything from the heart of these people.

By whose faith did they cross the sea? What was the purpose in them crossing the sea?

Now go back and read what point Moses argued with God. 13-20 I would copy but to long. Please read;
For we say today that God did disinherit them and is building his nation through another people the Gentiles.

I ask is this true or is God building the nation through whom he said he would? We believe them to be the heathen (Gentiles) instead of the house of Israel from among the (Gentiles) heathen. But as I said this is another thread.


BTW this isn't about C's or A's just truth.

 

[percho]

The seed, the promise, the faith.

The seed of the woman brought forth by Mary according to the flesh (And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.) and by resurrection from the dead, the seed of the woman brought forth by Zion (Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.) IS, the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:23

Jesus the Christ IS the promised seed of Abraham and IS the faith.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What promise was given that required faith because it was only a promise of hope not reality?

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Did the one of whom this was spoken receive that inheritance by promise?
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation

Today we after dying are said to be dead in Christ. That is dead in the faith that did come. See Gal 3:25 But after that the faith is come.

Those before Jesus and inclusive of Jesus who was made under the law, the called of God were said to have died in faith. In the faith to come. See Gal 3:23 But before the faith came.

 

[12strings]

Sorry percho, but I cannot follow what you are trying to say. Perhaps you can try to restate your point.

 

[12strings]

By faith, they passed through the Red sea as by dry [land]: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

I put that comer after faith. Why? Do you believe for one nano second that faith there has anything to do with the feeling, belief emotion or anything from the heart of these people.

By whose faith did they cross the sea? What was the purpose in them crossing the sea?

I'll address this part, since it seems to be a question pertinent to this thread.

Faith is not a feeling or emotion, it is trust. The people trusted God enough to start walking when the waters parted. It may not have been much trust, but it was enough, and it was in the right God. So...

-It was their faith in God that he would keep the water open long enough for them to cross.

-The purpose was the same as the chicken crossing the road: To get to the other side. (also to show God's power, and judge the egyptians.)

 

[seekingthetruth]

[QUOTE}

A Calvinist would disagree with this because of a belief called UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION: that is, God chooses us not based on any difference between me and the next guy, but solely because of this sovereign choice. So God looks at me and another guy, and doesn't see any reason to have faith in either one of us, but he chooses one, or both of us.

If God elects who He chooses, then He must have favorites, which means He must have more faith in one person than the other....or maybe it's love???? Maybe God loves you more than he does the unelected?

So? If it is not faith, then it must be love.

Why does God love any one person that He created more than others?

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If God elects who He chooses, then He must have favorites, which means He must have more faith in one person than the other....or maybe it's love???? Maybe God loves you more than he does the unelected?

So? If it is not faith, then it must be love.

Why does God love any one person that He created more than others?

John

And I prefer to believe its mercy.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Whats that story about the landowner who has men come in & labor all day, invites some to come in at noon & work a full day & lastly some to come in late & work & then the landowner pays them the same amount. The landowner when criticized that he was being unfair said, I can do what I want with my land & my money.

I think the point is made.

 

[Aaron]

Whats that story about the landowner who has men come in & labor all day, invites some to come in at noon & work a full day & lastly some to come in late & work & then the landowner pays them the same amount. The landowner when criticized that he was being unfair said, I can do what I want with my land & my money.

I think the point is made.

Dead on, brother! :thumbs:

 

[percho]

I'll address this part, since it seems to be a question pertinent to this thread.

Faith is not a feeling or emotion, it is trust. The people trusted God enough to start walking when the waters parted. It may not have been much trust, but it was enough, and it was in the right God. So...

-It was their faith in God that he would keep the water open long enough for them to cross.

-The purpose was the same as the chicken crossing the road: To get to the other side. (also to show God's power, and judge the egyptians.)

That is the whole point. Those people never trusted God from the night of the passover to the rejection of the spies. They had no 0= zero faith.

They crossed the sea because of the faith/faithfulness of God. They crossed the sea because of what God had told Abraham. It was not because of any faith they had in God. They were running scared.

The post following the post you responded to shows what the faith is and when it came. They were under the law, the schoolmaster. until the faith came, was revealed. The death of Jesus was the faith. He was made sin and paid the penalty for sin death, separation from his Father God. His Father raising him from the dead is the Grace of God by which you can be saved through the faith of Jesus his Son.

 

[12strings]

That is the whole point. Those people never trusted God from the night of the passover to the rejection of the spies. They had no 0= zero faith.

They crossed the sea because of the faith/faithfulness of God. They crossed the sea because of what God had told Abraham. It was not because of any faith they had in God. They were running scared.

The post following the post you responded to shows what the faith is and when it came. They were under the law, the schoolmaster. until the faith came, was revealed. The death of Jesus was the faith. He was made sin and paid the penalty for sin death, separation from his Father God. His Father raising him from the dead is the Grace of God by which you can be saved through the faith of Jesus his Son.

1. I can agree with your last paragraph, although you then have to say this gift, purchased by the faith of Christ, is then "recieved by faith" (rom.3) by the inividual believer.

2. Are you saying they people had ZERO FAITH IN GOD. I'm not sure that follows, that had at least enough faith to follow moses various places, one of which was through the red sea. That had faith that the water was less of a threat than the soldiers.

 

[Yeshua1]

Whose faith saves us?

I believe that it s my faith in God that saved me.

Cals say that it is not possible for me to have faith in God unless God gives it to me. Which means all faith comes from God and zero from us. If that is true then why would God have faith in me when I cannot possibly have any in him?

So, what actually saves us? Our faith in God or God's faith in us?

John

Not either one!

what saves us is the death of jesus upon the cross, and faith is the means for us to appropiate that and accessing it!

And God does not have faith, as He has no need to have it!

 

[seekingthetruth]

Not either one!

what saves us is the death of jesus upon the cross, and faith is the means for us to appropiate that and accessing it!

And God does not have faith, as He has no need to have it!

Which brings up another question.

Who let JesusFan/Dachaser1 sign up under another identity on this board?

John

 

[percho]

Not either one!

what saves us is the death of jesus upon the cross, and faith is the means for us to appropiate that and accessing it!

And God does not have faith, as He has no need to have it!

Wrong IMVHO The death of Jesus was the, through the faith. It was what followed that brought salvation for you, the grace.

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Hope? For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

much more, being reconciled, (by his death) we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Forest]

Faith is a natural ability that all men have. Faith can be damaged, thus some folks are mistrustful and skeptical, while others can be trusting to a fault and be taken advantage of.

Even animals have faith, Jesus himself showed this.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers

Even a sheep knows his shepherd's voice and trusts him. They will follow him wheresoever he leads them. But they will flee from a stranger because they do not trust him and are afraid of him.

We have a cat named Garfield that we got from a shelter a couple of years ago. He is orange and white and looks just like the cartoon cat. Garfield had been abused when we got him and was terrified of people. When we got him home he would run from us and hide under furniture, or run away from us outside. We would place food for Garfield and go away. When he was sure no one was around he would come and eat. But if we made the slightest noise he would run away in terror. He would actually run into the wall he was in such a panic.

Over the months I called and called Garfield, and eventually he began to approach me. But I had to be careful not to make sudden moves or noises. Eventually I got Garfield to come up to me and eat from his bowl.

It has been several years now, but now Garfield fully trusts me and the rest of the family. We can approach him and he will not run away, we can pick him up and he will not fight us. He has learned to trust us. This is faith. But he is still afraid of most strangers.

Faith is not some mysterious magical thing. It is based on knowledge and experience. We trust those we know well and who are good to us, we naturally mistrust strangers or those who are known not to be so good.

The more you read of Jesus and learn of him, the more you come to trust and believe his promises. You see how he healed the sick and never turned any away. You see how he forgave the vilest sinners. You hear his words and you naturally know they are truth. So, the more you get to know Jesus through the scriptures, and by putting his teachings into practice, the more you come to trust him.

All people can trust, though it is more difficult for some than others. The devil has beat lots of folks up and they have real difficulty trusting anyone.

All men have some kind of faith, but the natural man does not, and cannot, have spiritual faith, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

Faith is a natural ability that all men have. Faith can be damaged, thus some folks are mistrustful and skeptical, while others can be trusting to a fault and be taken advantage of.

Even animals have faith, Jesus himself showed this.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers

Even a sheep knows his shepherd's voice and trusts him. They will follow him wheresoever he leads them. But they will flee from a stranger because they do not trust him and are afraid of him.

We have a cat named Garfield that we got from a shelter a couple of years ago. He is orange and white and looks just like the cartoon cat. Garfield had been abused when we got him and was terrified of people. When we got him home he would run from us and hide under furniture, or run away from us outside. We would place food for Garfield and go away. When he was sure no one was around he would come and eat. But if we made the slightest noise he would run away in terror. He would actually run into the wall he was in such a panic.

Over the months I called and called Garfield, and eventually he began to approach me. But I had to be careful not to make sudden moves or noises. Eventually I got Garfield to come up to me and eat from his bowl.

It has been several years now, but now Garfield fully trusts me and the rest of the family. We can approach him and he will not run away, we can pick him up and he will not fight us. He has learned to trust us. This is faith. But he is still afraid of most strangers.

Faith is not some mysterious magical thing. It is based on knowledge and experience. We trust those we know well and who are good to us, we naturally mistrust strangers or those who are known not to be so good.

The more you read of Jesus and learn of him, the more you come to trust and believe his promises. You see how he healed the sick and never turned any away. You see how he forgave the vilest sinners. You hear his words and you naturally know they are truth. So, the more you get to know Jesus through the scriptures, and by putting his teachings into practice, the more you come to trust him.

All people can trust, though it is more difficult for some than others. The devil has beat lots of folks up and they have real difficulty trusting anyone.

If you think that John 10:4 is talking about an animal when using the word SHEEP, Then you have a lot to learn about scripture.

 

[Forest]

In my humbled experince. Man cannot mustar up faith with out the proper reason. It's the reason we have faith. God gives us faith by our being convinced of Him. Who convinces us? God does through the preaching of God's word. While we listen to this preaching, God is working to convince us and convict us. We cannot have faith is something we are not convinced of. So our faith is given us by the one who convinces us of God's truth.
MB

Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5. We have no spiritual faith until God puts his Spirit within us.

 

[percho]

Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5. We have no spiritual faith until God puts his Spirit within us.

Is Christ in you the hope of glory, acquired because of, the promise of the Spirit which was shed on us?

Compare: Titus 3:5 last phrase & 6 and renewing of the Holy Spirit; Which he (God) shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; WITH Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles (us)
through (in) Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith. (a noun)

That promise of the Spirit is inclusive in the promises made to Abraham and his one seed Christ, See V16 And it is by the Holy Spirit, the inheritance (eternal life) is received, which was by promise See V 18 Titus 1:2 tells of that promise: In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

We are joint heirs with Jesus the Christ of the promises of God. If Jesus hasn't first received the promises then we have no hope of receiving them. The promise of the hope of eternal life was made for Jesus and then for us only if he received first, through faith. He became sin for us and died with only the promise of hope of eternal life. THAT TOOK FAITH. Luke 22:42-44 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Did the strength from the angel help much? continue) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (We can only imagine, or can we, the agony of striving against sin to this degree) Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Did Jesus receive the promise of the Holy Spirit?
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,

If Jesus the Christ has not inherited we have no hope of inheriting.

We by the faith of Jesus the Christ have hope through the gift of the Holy Spirit of God, having being shed upon us. Rom 8:23-25 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

But we see Jesus (who has inherited) the substance of the things hoped for:
The Faith.