SBC Faith and Message supports Calvinistic thinking

[Jerome]

Yes with the denomination shrinking anyway, the same sex issue is the only thing right now that'll get the SBC riled up enough to disfellowship a church; it's done that to just a few.

 

[rsr]

So how many SBC pastors want to remain in a convention that so openly endorses its Calvinistic roots?

The B&FM is a mildly Calvinistic statement. The 1963/2000 version is less Calvinistic than the 1925 version, which in turn is less calvinistic than the 1833 New Hampshire Confession on which the 1925 edition is based. And the New Hampshire is less high Calvinist than Second London/Philadelphia confession on which it was based. You will not find imputed righteousness. There is election, but it is not specifically unconditional election. Total inability, in fact, is smudged in the 1963/2000 versions compared to even the 1925 version.

The NH/B&FM also incorporates Fullerism's "duty faith" as opposed to the principles of the London/Philadelphia confessions.

In fact, it probably would be more accurate to say that the BF&M is in the Reformed tradition, accommodating Calvinistic and Arminian views (except on perseverance, perhaps) without espousing specifically classical Calvinism details.

 

[rsr]

Yes with the denomination shrinking anyway, the same sex issue is the only thing right now that'll get the SBC riled up enough to disfellowship a church; it's done that to just a few.

Or women pastors and deacons.

But it is usually the local association or the state convention that disfellowships a church, not the convention.

 

[Reformed]

The B&FM is a mildly Calvinistic statement. The 1963/2000 version is less Calvinistic than the 1925 version, which in turn is less calvinistic than the 1833 New Hampshire Confession on which the 1925 edition is based. And the New Hampshire is less high Calvinist than Second London/Philadelphia confession on which it was based. You will not find imputed righteousness. There is election, but it is not specifically unconditional election. Total inability, in fact, is smudged in the 1963/2000 versions compared to even the 1925 version.

The NH/B&FM also incorporate Fullerism's "duty faith" as opposed to the principles of the London/Philadelphia confessions.

In fact, it probably would be more accurate to say that the BF&M is in the Reformed tradition, accommodating Calvinistic and Arminian views (except on perseverance, perhaps) without espousing specifically classical Calvinism details.

There is a well-known SBC pastor I know who is a leading figure in the Founders Movement. It is no secret that his church promotes the 1689 LBC as being more in line with what his church believes. It seems his church is operating just fine within the SBC fellowship. I think the SBC has more important fish to fry than entertaining a Monergist vs. Synergist schism. With nearly 50,000 churches in its ranks, the SBC has a pretty big tent. Do not like one church? Go to the one two blocks down just past the Dunkin Donuts.

 

[Jerome]

Or women pastors and deacons.

Local associations and state conventions have acted against the outrage of churches having woman pastors, based on BFM2000 saying that "the office of pastor is limited to men," but the SBC itself has not (so far):

Baptist Press Oct. 20, 2015 Tennessee association disfellowships church with female pastor

the SBC has never withdrawn fellowship from a church because it had a female pastor

Undoubtedly action has been taken against churches with women deacons, in some corners.
But you know the DC association is not going to make an issue of Capitol Hill Baptist Church's having women deacons, for example. Nor is the SBC.

 

[rsr]

The DC Convention is triply aligned anyway. The SBC attempted to flex its financial muscle some time back and got nowhere.

First Baptist Oklahoma City withdrew from the SBC specifically over the issue of women deacons, but it is still in cooperation with the local association and the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma. So it's not Southern Baptist but it is.

 

[Jerome]

First Baptist Oklahoma City withdrew from the SBC specifically over the issue of women deacons

Wasn't it about pastors? BFM2000 doesn't proscribe women deacons.

 

[rsr]

You are correct. FBC Oklahoma City had approved women deacons in 1983 and was briefly shunned by the association (which refused to seat its messengers that year), but the thing was patched over by 1984. It was indeed the "ban" on women pastors that provoked the break. I am not aware that the church has in fact had a woman in the pastorate; certainly it has not had a female senior pastor.

 

[agedman]

O.K.............
So, do other non-"reformed" or "Calvinistic" Baptists who do not adhere to the "Doctrines of Grace" have your official permission to disassociate?

I Pray to God Almighty, daily, that if you are indeed correct...that this is an exclusively Calvinist document, then, we filthy godless Arminians can now, in good conscience, remove ourselves from any association with you, and continue to obey the Great Commission and obey the gospel as we see fit.

Are you giving us permission to disassociate from Al Mohler?
Please say yes.
I'd give ANYTHING for all non-Calvinists to peaceably part ways with all adherents of that Philosophy, and you can have the Seminaries, their grounds, their history, and Al Mohler, T.C. "that Brian", "Iconoclast" and everyone else with it....

It's all yours.

Now, since it's a "Calvinist" document...May we PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Dear Lord, disassociate ourselves from you and start our own convention afresh???
I'd agree to a legal requirement that you take all the Seminaries, all the grounds, and we'll pay any interruption in retirement for all tenured professors............

Will you then, please, become members of the Association of Reformed Baptists....and leave the rest of us alone?

Take whatever you want, it's yours.
Please, then, take all those millions of dollars and centuries of investment...and pay Al Mohler's salary from your own pockets and leave the rest of us to continue the Great Commission as we see fit? Will you for the love of the gospel of Jesus Christ do that for us please???

Will you take that deal?
Please say yes.

Bit reactionary?

 

[agedman]

Hopefully, they will take it over entirely....
That's my prayer.
And then we who are alive and remain may associate ourselves for the furtherance of the gospel as we deem fit.

I say let them have it ALL.

If they leave us alone afterwards???
It's worth every dime, every penny.

Then, we associate anew, and then in 75 years when they have no money and no converts and no one in their pews, we can officially tell them to pound sand....because what they want is for us to do the dirty work of reaching the lost, while they comfortably smoke cigars and study "Soteriology".

They can get their own converts...
You aren't going to get a SINGLE Calvie wanting to disassociate from the S.B.C....They'll fight for "unity" on that issue until we pull out.
Because they aren't reaching anyone, and they need us to fight in the trenches..

Of course they want "unity" with us:
They'd die without it.

Gnosticism and Docetism was heresy when the Apostle John dealt with it, and it's heresy when Al Mohler preaches it........Please let the Calvinists take everything we own, and then we can get about the Great Commission alone, without their help.

We'll be better off...........
They only want "unity" in the sense that they lead no one to Christ, and they need us to be the grunts who generate the dues-paying church-sheeple to fund their life-style..............

You're right "aged-man".....the B.F.M. is totally a "reformed" document...
May the rest of us pull out now????

Please?

Again, a bit reactionary?

You are free to leave anytime you desire.

No one has shackled you, and no one is demanding you cannot nforming to Scriptures.

So, if you want so badly to leave, then do so.

 

[Iconoclast]

"HeirofSalvation,

I Pray to God Almighty, daily, that if you are indeed correct...that this is an exclusively Calvinist document

,

The baptist faith and message is a weak watered down and defective document...designed to allow those who cannot come to grips with truth to still join in.

then, we filthy godless Arminians can now, in good conscience, remove ourselves from any association with you, and continue to obey the Great Commission and obey the gospel as we see fit.

Sure,,,go and take your watered down statement with you...have fun, just go.

Are you giving us permission to disassociate from Al Mohler?
Please say yes.

yes ...get out...take your whining and complaining with you...just go.
I will have the piano player play just as I am for you 50x as you walk the aisle right out of the church so you can go and join the bogus so called traditionalists...under the leadership of Leighton Flowers...you can have him, we will take Al Mohler...good deal!

I'd give ANYTHING for all non-Calvinists to peaceably part ways with all adherents of that Philosophy

,

No need to give anything...just go.

and you can have the Seminaries, their grounds, their history, and Al Mohler, T.C. "that Brian", "Iconoclast" and everyone else with it....

It's all yours.

Thanks HOS

Now, since it's a "Calvinist" document...

It is not...it is a weak and lame document with all manner of unscriptural wording made politically correct so not to offend....

May we PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Dear Lord, disassociate ourselves from you and start our own convention afresh???

Yes...Go already

Will you then, please, become members of the Association of Reformed Baptists....and leave the rest of us alone?

you go....we will be just fine

 

[rsr]

Folks, please dial it back. I really don't want to close this thread because it has some possibilities, but if the bickering and name calling continues I will not hesitate to do it.

 

[Rhetorician]

O.K.............
So, do other non-"reformed" or "Calvinistic" Baptists who do not adhere to the "Doctrines of Grace" have your official permission to disassociate?

I Pray to God Almighty, daily, that if you are indeed correct...that this is an exclusively Calvinist document, then, we filthy godless Arminians can now, in good conscience, remove ourselves from any association with you, and continue to obey the Great Commission and obey the gospel as we see fit.

Are you giving us permission to disassociate from Al Mohler?
Please say yes.
I'd give ANYTHING for all non-Calvinists to peaceably part ways with all adherents of that Philosophy, and you can have the Seminaries, their grounds, their history, and Al Mohler, T.C. "that Brian", "Iconoclast" and everyone else with it....

It's all yours.

Now, since it's a "Calvinist" document...May we PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Dear Lord, disassociate ourselves from you and start our own convention afresh???
I'd agree to a legal requirement that you take all the Seminaries, all the grounds, and we'll pay any interruption in retirement for all tenured professors............

Will you then, please, become members of the Association of Reformed Baptists....and leave the rest of us alone?

Take whatever you want, it's yours.
Please, then, take all those millions of dollars and centuries of investment...and pay Al Mohler's salary from your own pockets and leave the rest of us to continue the Great Commission as we see fit? Will you for the love of the gospel of Jesus Christ do that for us please???

Will you take that deal?
Please say yes.

Dear Bro. "Heir,"

Those of us of the Founders Movement and others who are Soteriological Calvinists and Reformed leaning have done our best to be at peace and live at peace with all of you Traditionalist. (If you are no Traditionalists then I do not hang that moniker on you?) No doubt we have made mistakes, as have those on the other side have; and some have even sinned!

And if any of my brethren have sinned against you then I am sorry. But why the chip on your shoulder? Is it that you have been hurt or damaged some place along the line? Have you sought to be reconciled with those with whom you so violently disagree? Is is doctrinal? Of is is personal? Only you can answer those questions. I would be glad to be an ear for you to vent your issues if you want to contact me via PM or phone.

And I cannot even imagine why you are so vitriolic and angry? Can you explain that to one Particular Baptist brother who loves all of you of the Anabaptist persuasion? Please?

My heart goes out to you dear brother. There is too much Gospel to preach, there are too many souls to whom we should witness, and too much Kingdom work to be done to have this type of argument on the BB. IMHO!!

Contact me if you need to do so....

Your for the Kingdom's increase.

rd

 

[The Archangel]

Partner do you know how this BF&M was organized this last time? Do you know the background and who it was on the committee and what their intent was?

Yes it matters because it goes to the heart of the op. This is the second time today you have posted on a subject in which you do not know all the facts so let me school you. The BF&M committee was set up so as to word it in a way that churches who are calvinistic and who are not both could accept the wording of it. What has happened since then is the [Calvinists] have tried to use to to prove the SBC is largely calvinist. There is a growing divide in the convetion and it is because of attitudes that has been clearly displayed in the op. You [Calvinists] want to keep up divisions like this it is exactly what you will get. There is a growing animosity building up. If not corrected it will come to a head. Its a shame because its not necessary.

Nope. The text of the BF&M 1963 is identical to the BF&M 2000 in this instance.

Question: SBC member churches are still independent, right? Are they under obligation to adhere to the BFM locally?

They are. They can be disfellowshipped if they are practicing things not according to it. In fact some churches in recent years have been disfellowshipped for bringing homosexuals into leadership.

Again, you are wrong--if you are saying the the SBC churches must adopt the BF&M. There are several churches I know of (and I used to pastor one of them) that cooperated with the SBC without affirming the BF&M 2000. Our church affirmed the New Hampshire confession. Others I know of affirm 2nd London.

There is absolutely NO requirement by SBC churches to adopt the BF&M. The dis-fellowship issue for homosexuality is based on the practice or the accpetance of the practice, not the BF&M.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Local associations and state conventions have acted against the outrage of churches having woman pastors, based on BFM2000 saying that "the office of pastor is limited to men," but the SBC itself has not (so far):

Baptist Press Oct. 20, 2015 Tennessee association disfellowships church with female pastor

Undoubtedly action has been taken against churches with women deacons, in some corners.
But you know the DC association is not going to make an issue of Capitol Hill Baptist Church's having women deacons, for example. Nor is the SBC.

You ought to know that CHBC has all-male elders. Yes, they have women deacons, but at CHBC deacons (both male and female) are servants, not leaders.

The Archangel

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

O.K.............
So, do other non-"reformed" or "Calvinistic" Baptists who do not adhere to the "Doctrines of Grace" have your official permission to disassociate?

I Pray to God Almighty, daily, that if you are indeed correct...that this is an exclusively Calvinist document, then, we filthy godless Arminians can now, in good conscience, remove ourselves from any association with you, and continue to obey the Great Commission and obey the gospel as we see fit.

Are you giving us permission to disassociate from Al Mohler?
Please say yes.
I'd give ANYTHING for all non-Calvinists to peaceably part ways with all adherents of that Philosophy, and you can have the Seminaries, their grounds, their history, and Al Mohler, T.C. "that Brian", "Iconoclast" and everyone else with it....

It's all yours.

Now, since it's a "Calvinist" document...May we PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Dear Lord, disassociate ourselves from you and start our own convention afresh???
I'd agree to a legal requirement that you take all the Seminaries, all the grounds, and we'll pay any interruption in retirement for all tenured professors............

Will you then, please, become members of the Association of Reformed Baptists....and leave the rest of us alone?

Take whatever you want, it's yours.
Please, then, take all those millions of dollars and centuries of investment...and pay Al Mohler's salary from your own pockets and leave the rest of us to continue the Great Commission as we see fit? Will you for the love of the gospel of Jesus Christ do that for us please???

Will you take that deal?
Please say yes.

Go where you want. The SBC Baptists have made conflict their stock and trade for generations. That's why they are called the 'BattlinBaptists'.

I'm grateful to Al Mohler and David Platt, and so many more who preach the Word.

I must admit that the SBC may in the last death throes.

Who knew that the SBC has to have a task force to combat racism? Reading the Bible should suffice. And then, what do you think about Andy Savage? I read his statement where he minimizes his assault on a 17 year old girl? To make it all the more evil, his congregation gave this person a standing ovation.

It is my opinion that you can go wherever you want to, and I will pray for you.

Did I need to mention Ergun Caner? How about Peter Lumpkins comparing Caner to Elijah?

I have family and other people I love still in the SBC churches. Most of them reformed. They are never so angry as you seem to be.

Your post is absolutely seething angry.

1 Peter 3:15English Standard Version (ESV)

15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,


Ephesians 4:29English Standard Version (ESV)

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.


1 Corinthians 1:10English Standard Version (ESV)

10 I appeal to you, brothers,[a] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.


2 Timothy 2:14English Standard Version (ESV)

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God[a] not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

 

[utilyan]

I think Calvinist should have pretty easy time convincing non-cals to be Calvinist if they were to focus on the phrase "FAITH ALONE".

Because in my experience its said by non-cals that Faith is a God given gift initiated by God. Which is still a God flicked switch.

The only obstacle is timing. Cals say has to be after/on hearing the gospel.

 

[AnnieL]

this is a quote from the SBC Faith and Message. (Southern Baptist Convention > The Baptist Faith and Message)

V. Salvation
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.​

Is the underlined an indication of agreement with limited atonement? “...his own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer” mark the connection of blood and believer as uniquely Calvinistic.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.
​

This is clearly that which Calvinistic thinkers see as irresistible grace. The unconditional choice of the Holy Spirit bring the change in the heart FIRST in which causes that person to respond in repentance and faith in which BOTH are “experiences of Grace” granted by God and not human effort - for that which is of God’s grace his not of human extraction.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.


C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

​

This is truly the perseverance/preservation of the saints.

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

​

So how many SBC pastors want to remain in a convention that so openly endorses its Calvinistic roots?

HI I am new, what do you mean accept Christ? Also, what is EVERY one talking about with all the abrevations csn you spell it out for new people?

 

[agedman]

HI I am new, what do you mean accept Christ? Also, what is EVERY one talking about with all the abrevations csn you spell it out for new people?

Welcome AnnieL!

I understand your question about using just initials rather then full spellings. Once in a while this old man has to ask the same question.

Your question is a very good one, but involves more than a short answer.

Accepting Christ is a term used by Baptists (and some others) in the presentation of the Gospel (the death, burial, resurrection, and return of the Lord Jesus Christ) and one coming to a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Through the Scriptures being presented (verbally, written, musically...) the Holy Spirit uses them to cause one who is to believe to become aware of the claims of Christ on their life. Such is often called conviction as that person, under the authority of the Holy Spirit, realizes that they are a helpless sinner in need of a savior and that the only Savior is Jesus Christ the Lord. There is a difference between one persuaded by intellectualism, and one who has had that change made in their core person as to the basic life lived values and priorities. It is the core change that must occur for Salvation. For the Lord Jesus Christ does not want merely one's mind, but the whole mind, soul, body (strength).

The book of Romans (chapter 10) states that when the Word is in one's heart and in one's mouth, that one believes and confesses "unto (about) salvation."

Sometimes you will read on the BB about "repentance."

Repentance literally means a change of mind, or a change of direction, to turn. Repentance alone does not bring salvation, for there is a sorrow of the worldly in which they are sorry to have been caught, and that sorrow of the heart which is desperately grateful that God hears and saves. Such heart repentance occurs daily and more often in those who believe, for we often grieve that we fail to meet the "high calling of God," and yet are promised that there is "nothing that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus."

When the Holy Spirit brings conviction, belief is often expressed as the person confesses in the form of declaring repentance and a desire that the Lord Jesus Christ reside completely and unhindered in their heart to control all aspects of living.

All this is bound up in that word "accept." The believer is changed from accepting that which is worldly as a standard to that accepting that which is Godly. The believer by accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior has started upon that journey in which salvation is a state of being saved. Salvation is what has been accomplished, is being accomplished, and shall be accomplished. It is not a process, but a state of being.


Now, I have covered a huge body of information in this post, and trust that it was sufficient to both answer and present the obvious question:
Do you, AnnieL, know the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior having confessed Him in repentance and have that core desire to live for Him in every aspect of your life?

 

[AnnieL]

Yes, I have. My question is basically, about accept Christ does not always mean the same thing to all people and denominations, that is without explaining what it means each time you use the phrase, it does not necessarily mean the same as your explanation to someone not familiar with your belief's. You can't just look it up in the scriptures, at least I have not found accept Christ in the Bible. After talking to many people it seems the testimony is "I have accepted Christ,but they really don't know what that means, nor can they tell you what that is to accept Christ. I don't think anyone agrees with me so maybe I am in error?