SBC Faith and Message supports Calvinistic thinking

[Reformed]

this is a quote from the SBC Faith and Message. (Southern Baptist Convention > The Baptist Faith and Message)

V. Salvation
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.​

Is the underlined an indication of agreement with limited atonement? “...his own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer” mark the connection of blood and believer as uniquely Calvinistic.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.
​

This is clearly that which Calvinistic thinkers see as irresistible grace. The unconditional choice of the Holy Spirit bring the change in the heart FIRST in which causes that person to respond in repentance and faith in which BOTH are “experiences of Grace” granted by God and not human effort - for that which is of God’s grace his not of human extraction.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.


C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

​

This is truly the perseverance/preservation of the saints.

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

​

So how many SBC pastors want to remain in a convention that so openly endorses its Calvinistic roots?

I am not SBC but I have many friends who are. On a different message board, I remember a detailed discussion on the latest iteration of the BF&M. I cannot find the quote but I believe the intention of the committee that put the latest BF&M together was to find language that would be palatable to both sides of the debate. It probably is not specific enough for some. I know some pastors who are part of the Founders Movement and they defer to the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith in their local church. I guess the silver lining in the BF&M is it does not preclude Monergistic teaching in those churches that hold to that conviction.

 

[Van]

Papering over totally incompatible views using ambiguous language that both sides can claim to support their view is dishonest, wrong, and unchristian. Our yes should mean yes, not "it depends."
Snip, Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, but only those transferred into Christ undergo the washing of regeneration, thus being justified by His blood.

 

[Bluefalcon]

The biggest mistake of the BFM2000, committee, if there is one, was not reverting much of the wording of the 1963 confession back to that of the 1925, specifically, much of the following (BFM1925):

VI. The Freeness of Salvation

The blessings of salvation are made free to all by the gospel. It is the duty of all to accept them by penitent and obedient faith. Nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner except his own voluntary refusal to accept Jesus Christ as teacher, Saviour, and Lord.

Eph. 1:5; 2:4-10; 1 Cor. 1:30-31; Rom. 5:1-9; Rev. 22:17; John 3:16; Mark 16:16.

VII. Regeneration

Regeneration or the new birth is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit, whereby we become partakers of the divine nature and a holy disposition is given, leading to the love and practice of righteousness. It is a work of God's free grace conditioned upon faith in Christ and made manifest by the fruit which we bring forth to the glory of God.

John 3:1-8, 1:16-18; Rom. 8:2; Eph. 2:1,5-6,8,10; Eph. 4:30,32; Col. 3:1-11; Titus 3:5.

VIII. Repentance and Faith

We believe that repentance and faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God; whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger, and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy; at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Prophet, Priest, and King, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Saviour.

Luke 22:31-34; Mark 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:13; Rom. 3:25,27,31; Rom. 4:3,9,12,16-17; John 16:8-11.

 

[Rhetorician]

Does it matter?

What I was showing was how it can support Calvinistic thinking.

Do you agree?

​

So how many SBC pastors want to remain in a convention that so openly endorses its Calvinistic roots?

Dear Bro. agedman,

For the record, I would like to know if you are a Southern Baptist? and if you hold to the doctrinal statement quoted above?

Can you please answer those questions for me? If not then I do not see why or how "you have a dog in this fight?"

Awaiting your response.

rd

 

[church mouse guy]

If I wanted to be a full-fledged Calvinist, I would leave the SBC.

 

[agedman]

Dear Bro. agedman,

For the record, I would like to know if you are a Southern Baptist? and if you hold to the doctrinal statement quoted above?

Can you please answer those questions for me? If not then I do not see why or how "you have a dog in this fight?"

Awaiting your response.

rd

Yes to both.

All the OP does is show the Calvinistic roots of the SBC are still viable.

At the end, I ask the question of WHY would a non-calvinist want to stay in the convention?

Is it not a valid question?

Why would a pastor or even a church that cannot agree with the BF&M want to stay?

Is not the basic document that which brings unity of purpose?

 

[Rhetorician]

Yes to both.

All the OP does is show the Calvinistic roots of the SBC are still viable.

At the end, I ask the question of WHY would a non-calvinist want to stay in the convention?

Is it not a valid question?

Why would a pastor or even a church that cannot agree with the BF&M want to stay?

Is not the basic document that which brings unity of purpose?

Dear agedman,

I would beg to differ. It is not the document that brings unity of purpose, the document only makes a statement of what we have agreed, at that time and place, that we agree in abstract form that we believe.

It is the threefold "unity of purpose" in missions at home and a broad, education for those who would serve, and other relief efforts to the poor in light of Christ's Gospel that hold us together. And all of this is voluntary from church to church and preacher to preacher.

And you know as well as I know, that any church or preacher is not bound by that document on any level. If what you have confessed above is what you believe is the "SBC way" then I think you might be laboring under either false conceptions or some level of ignorance (I fear to use this because it is such a strong word and "lightening rod)." No offense intended!!

rd

 

[Reformed]

Yes to both.

All the OP does is show the Calvinistic roots of the SBC are still viable.

At the end, I ask the question of WHY would a non-calvinist want to stay in the convention?

Is it not a valid question?

Why would a pastor or even a church that cannot agree with the BF&M want to stay?

Is not the basic document that which brings unity of purpose?

Question: SBC member churches are still independent, right? Are they under obligation to adhere to the BFM locally?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Rhetorician]

Yes to both.

All the OP does is show the Calvinistic roots of the SBC are still viable.

At the end, I ask the question of WHY would a non-calvinist want to stay in the convention?

Is it not a valid question?

Why would a pastor or even a church that cannot agree with the BF&M want to stay?

Is not the basic document that which brings unity of purpose?

"WHY would a non-calvinist want to stay in the convention?" Becasu

Question: SBC member churches are still independent, right? Are they under obligation to adhere to the BFM locally?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Absolutely not! There is no hierarchy that mandates belief or alignment to any creed, confession, or group. Each church is its own entity. Each preacher is his own man.

Most do not have any idea of the Convention structure up to and calling us a "denomination" or "mainline denomination." We are each church just as independent as each of the IFB churches.

"Where ignorance abounds graced does much more abound!"

rd

 

[agedman]

The biggest mistake of the BFM2000, committee, if there is one, was not reverting much of the wording of the 1963 confession back to that of the 1925, specifically, much of the following (BFM1925):

VI. The Freeness of Salvation

The blessings of salvation are made free to all by the gospel. It is the duty of all to accept them by penitent and obedient faith. Nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner except his own voluntary refusal to accept Jesus Christ as teacher, Saviour, and Lord.

Eph. 1:5; 2:4-10; 1 Cor. 1:30-31; Rom. 5:1-9; Rev. 22:17; John 3:16; Mark 16:16.

VII. Regeneration

Regeneration or the new birth is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit, whereby we become partakers of the divine nature and a holy disposition is given, leading to the love and practice of righteousness. It is a work of God's free grace conditioned upon faith in Christ and made manifest by the fruit which we bring forth to the glory of God.

John 3:1-8, 1:16-18; Rom. 8:2; Eph. 2:1,5-6,8,10; Eph. 4:30,32; Col. 3:1-11; Titus 3:5.

VIII. Repentance and Faith

We believe that repentance and faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God; whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt, danger, and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ, we turn to God with unfeigned contrition, confession, and supplication for mercy; at the same time heartily receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Prophet, Priest, and King, and relying on him alone as the only and all-sufficient Saviour.

Luke 22:31-34; Mark 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:13; Rom. 3:25,27,31; Rom. 4:3,9,12,16-17; John 16:8-11.

I agree.

Before 1925, the typical SB Church used the London document as a basic tool to formulate their own statements.

In an exercise of unity, the SBC established the 1925 statement which also relied upon the London.

However, by 1960's, the SBC school Bible departments has spread their influence to the point that what came about was a very weak document.

To even get to the present document was a monumental effort in which universities were separated from support, Bible departments reorganized and the faithfulness of the Scriptures being taught as valid and having veracity.

 

[agedman]

Dear agedman,

I would beg to differ. It is not the document that brings unity of purpose, the document only makes a statement of what we have agreed, at that time and place, that we agree in abstract form that we believe.

It is the threefold "unity of purpose" in missions at home and a broad, education for those who would serve, and other relief efforts to the poor in light of Christ's Gospel that hold us together. And all of this is voluntary from church to church and preacher to preacher.

And you know as well as I know, that any church or preacher is not bound by that document on any level. If what you have confessed above is what you believe is the "SBC way" then I think you might be laboring under either false conceptions or some level of ignorance (I fear to use this because it is such a strong word and "lightening rod)." No offense intended!!

rd

Part of the 60’s document was to open the mission efforts to a broader spectrum of folks that had been schooled in SB schools in a liberal theology and situational ethic approaches. It was a failure and great waste and (imo) damage done. The push back began and the current document is an attempt at bringing some unity.

Unity of purpose must first have unity in doctrine. That in essence is the BF&M.

 

[Reformed]

Absolutely not! There is no hierarchy that mandates belief or alignment to any creed, confession, or group. Each church is its own entity. Each preacher is his own man.

Most do not have any idea of the Convention structure up to and calling us a "denomination" or "mainline denomination." We are each church just as independent as each of the IFB churches.

"Where ignorance abounds graced does much more abound!"

This is what I thought but it is always good to seek clarification.

 

[agedman]

"WHY would a non-calvinist want to stay in the convention?" Becasu


Absolutely not! There is no hierarchy that mandates belief or alignment to any creed, confession, or group. Each church is its own entity. Each preacher is his own man.

Most do not have any idea of the Convention structure up to and calling us a "denomination" or "mainline denomination." We are each church just as independent as each of the IFB churches.

"Where ignorance abounds graced does much more abound!"

rd

I realize this is the typical thinking and highly published stand.

BUT one is to understand that there is influence that cannot be disregarded.

Usually, the influence remains benign, but can be significant.


.

 

[Revmitchell]

Question: SBC member churches are still independent, right? Are they under obligation to adhere to the BFM locally?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

They are. They can be disfellowshipped if they are practicing things not according to it. In fact some churches in recent years have been disfellowshipped for bringing homosexuals into leadership.

 

[Reynolds]

I can only agree to an extent. The state conventions of the SBC may not be able to make you do or not do things, but they can kick you out if you don't comply with their rules. A huge church right up the road got kicked out for ordaining women deacons.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

NT

 

[HeirofSalvation]

this is a quote from the SBC Faith and Message. (Southern Baptist Convention > The Baptist Faith and Message)

V. Salvation
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.​

Is the underlined an indication of agreement with limited atonement? “...his own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer” mark the connection of blood and believer as uniquely Calvinistic.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.
​

This is clearly that which Calvinistic thinkers see as irresistible grace. The unconditional choice of the Holy Spirit bring the change in the heart FIRST in which causes that person to respond in repentance and faith in which BOTH are “experiences of Grace” granted by God and not human effort - for that which is of God’s grace his not of human extraction.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.


C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

​

This is truly the perseverance/preservation of the saints.

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

​

So how many SBC pastors want to remain in a convention that so openly endorses its Calvinistic roots?

O.K.............
So, do other non-"reformed" or "Calvinistic" Baptists who do not adhere to the "Doctrines of Grace" have your official permission to disassociate?

I Pray to God Almighty, daily, that if you are indeed correct...that this is an exclusively Calvinist document, then, we filthy godless Arminians can now, in good conscience, remove ourselves from any association with you, and continue to obey the Great Commission and obey the gospel as we see fit.

Are you giving us permission to disassociate from Al Mohler?
Please say yes.
I'd give ANYTHING for all non-Calvinists to peaceably part ways with all adherents of that Philosophy, and you can have the Seminaries, their grounds, their history, and Al Mohler, T.C. "that Brian", "Iconoclast" and everyone else with it....

It's all yours.

Now, since it's a "Calvinist" document...May we PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Dear Lord, disassociate ourselves from you and start our own convention afresh???
I'd agree to a legal requirement that you take all the Seminaries, all the grounds, and we'll pay any interruption in retirement for all tenured professors............

Will you then, please, become members of the Association of Reformed Baptists....and leave the rest of us alone?

Take whatever you want, it's yours.
Please, then, take all those millions of dollars and centuries of investment...and pay Al Mohler's salary from your own pockets and leave the rest of us to continue the Great Commission as we see fit? Will you for the love of the gospel of Jesus Christ do that for us please???

Will you take that deal?
Please say yes.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

If I wanted to be a full-fledged Calvinist, I would leave the SBC.

Hopefully, they will take it over entirely....
That's my prayer.
And then we who are alive and remain may associate ourselves for the furtherance of the gospel as we deem fit.

I say let them have it ALL.

If they leave us alone afterwards???
It's worth every dime, every penny.

Then, we associate anew, and then in 75 years when they have no money and no converts and no one in their pews, we can officially tell them to pound sand....because what they want is for us to do the dirty work of reaching the lost, while they comfortably smoke cigars and study "Soteriology".

They can get their own converts...
You aren't going to get a SINGLE Calvie wanting to disassociate from the S.B.C....They'll fight for "unity" on that issue until we pull out.
Because they aren't reaching anyone, and they need us to fight in the trenches..

Of course they want "unity" with us:
They'd die without it.

Gnosticism and Docetism was heresy when the Apostle John dealt with it, and it's heresy when Al Mohler preaches it........Please let the Calvinists take everything we own, and then we can get about the Great Commission alone, without their help.

We'll be better off...........
They only want "unity" in the sense that they lead no one to Christ, and they need us to be the grunts who generate the dues-paying church-sheeple to fund their life-style..............

You're right "aged-man".....the B.F.M. is totally a "reformed" document...
May the rest of us pull out now????

Please?

 

[Jerome]

Are they under obligation to adhere to the BFM locally?

Absolutely not! There is no hierarchy that mandates belief or alignment to any creed, confession....We are each church just as independent as each of the IFB churches.

They are. They can be disfellowshipped if they are practicing things not according to it.

Last answer is correct. The SBC constitution was amended several years ago and now reads:

"Article III. Composition....Baptist churches in cooperation with the Convention....The Convention will only deem a church to be in friendly cooperation with the Convention which...Has a faith and practice which closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith."

 

[rsr]

And it is a fact that a great many SBC churches (particularly in Texas) still adhere to the 1963 BF&M. And some adhere to the Second London Confession.

" ... closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith. ... " covers a lot of territory.