SBC vs. Independent

[El_Guero]

Ya' dare ta' call the great Norris 'abrasive?'

I like ya' more all the time!

:saint:

PreachTREE, a knowledge of fundamentalist history is necessary to understand this. First of all, the IFB churches with a background of coming out of the Northern Baptists (now American Baptists) have never had much to do with the SBC since the Northern and Southern Baptists split over slavery in the mid-19th century. So that includes IFB groups like the GARB (founded in 1932), Fundamental Baptist Fellowship (FBF), etc. This does not include transplanted Southerners like Tom Malone, etc.

For the southern IFB churches which came out of the SBC, we need to go back to the 1920's, which is when great conflicts began in the major denominations between the fundamentalists and the liberals. The SBC was one of those denominations. Three men in particular opposed SBC liberalism.

In 1927, J. Frank Norris and John R. Rice objected to evolution being taught in Baylor U. on Norris's radio broadcast. I'm going to say here that John R. Rice was my grandfather just so no one embarrasses themselves by posting false or insulting things about him on this thread. At any rate, Norris and Rice were blackballed by the Texas SB Convention over the issue, and with that the Southern IFB movement was started. (See Rice's biography, Man Sent From God, by Bob Sumner, for more on this incident.)

Norris went on to start the World Baptist Fellowship, still in existence, but in 1950, because of Norris's abrasive personality and dictatorial leadership style, men like Beauchamp Vick, John Rawlings and Noel Smith founded the Bible Baptist Fellowship.

Rice went on to plant 11 IFB churches in Texas through tent meetings, founding the Sword of the Lord in 1934. This paper criticized the SBF cooperative program extensively for it's support of liberal missionaries and projects and institutions, and also continued to attack liberalism in SVF institutions. Many SB churches and pastors left the convention and became independents through Rice's influence.

SIDE NOTE: When I say "liberalism" I don't mean people who think smoking and drinking are okay, or use a modern version instead of the KJV. I mean people who denied one or more of the following: the inspiration of the Bible, the virgin birth of Christ, the deity of Christ, the literal creation of the universe by God. This is the proper theological understanding of liberalism.

To continue, in 1946, Lee Roberson founded Tennessee Temple College and Temple Baptist Seminary because of the liberalism in the SBC schools. The SBC opposition to an independent school caused Roberson to leave the convention, and his schools trained many of our current IFB leaders. When I went there in the 1970's there were about 5000 students, as I recall.

The SBC finally began to address it's problems with liberalism in the 1970's due largely to a book by Harold Lindsell, The Battle For the Bible. In fact, until very recent years, SBC missionaries did not have to even believe in the verbal-plenary inspiration of Scriptures. I went to Japanese language school in 1981-1982 with an SBC couple like that--both husband and wife ordained and serving in Japanese churches!

I think I'll quit here, PreachTREE, and let you ask questions, if you have any. :type:

 

[John of Japan]

Ya' dare ta' call the great Norris 'abrasive?'

I like ya' more all the time!

:saint:

Did I say abrasive? The man was living sandpaper! But man could he preach!

 

[El_Guero]

5,000 students?

That was pretty impressive!

 

[John of Japan]

5,000 students?

That was pretty impressive!

That figure included the college, seminary and Bible school. It also included students from some conservative SBC churches that did not like the liberalism they saw in many SBC colleges of the day.

It was an exciting time to be an IFB at Temple. We heard tremendous preaching all the time from men like Lee Roberson, John R. Rice, Warren Wiersbe (many times) and many others, including occasional SBC men such as R. G. Lee preaching "Payday Someday" and J. Harold Smith preaching "God's Three Deadlines."

In later years inroads were made into Temple's constituancy by schools such as Pensacola Christian College. That and the fact that Temple didn't do much for or listen much to their alumni really hurt the school.

 

[gb93433]

Yes, my SBC church just wrapped up our Lottie Moon Christmas offering. I sure am glad to be done with missions for another year.

If you were the preacher they would give you a ready supply of topics to preach on each week that they like.

 

[whatever]

If you were the preacher they would give you a ready supply of topics to preach on each week that they like.

Just for the record, I was being sarcastic in that post. Mine is a great church IMO and I would not trade it for anything.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Just for the record, I was being sarcastic in that post. Mine is a great church IMO and I would not trade it for anything.

Don't let gb get to you. He has a big chip on his shoulder about the SBC and likes to show off that chip frequently.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Dear John of Japan,
If ever there was a qualified person to write history of the IFB it would be you.Has that thought ever crossed your mind?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Maybe SBC pastors use those sermons, but I don't know of any. But IFB also sends out sermons in the Sword :laugh:

 

[John of Japan]

Dear John of Japan,
If ever there was a qualified person to write history of the IFB it would be you.Has that thought ever crossed your mind?

Thanks, Bill, it has. But it would have to be done right, and that would take some serious research, interviewing, etc. Maybe someday!

In the meantime, I've been playing around with and writing some on a personal perspective with the tentative title, On Being a Rice. And while I'm still on the field I have an introduction to missions about half written, so that is where my priority is right now. :type:

 

[nwstevens]

John of Japan, I think you have been accurate in the assessments you've posted. I currently pastor an SBC church. My wife attended BJU and I attended Liberty. My wife grew up in IFB churches, while I grew up in Baptist Missionary Association (a Fundamental Landmark group)....and we now served in the SBC!! My inlaws attend Johnny Pope's church in Houston. I have found that there is still some misinformation about the SBC within the IFB ranks.

As others have mentioned, the liberalism that was present within the SBC seminaries, boards, pastors, and missionaries is going by the wayside. Most SBC pastors in my local association wear the name "Fundamentalist" with pride, though it is meant as a derogatory term by many.

Are there still problems within the SBC? Sure. One I am seeing is the reluctance to admit the error of sending children to public schools. At this year's Missouri Baptist Convention, one preacher cited many statistics of SBC youth never darkening the door of a church after they turn 18. What a tragedy!!! Know what his solution was?? Evangelize more!! I was shocked.....this "great pastor" has no clue. This is an area the IFBs are right on target with (i.e. abandoning public education in favor of home schooling) and the evidence is the large number of their youth that attend Bible college and serve the Lord.

Another prevalent SBC problem is Biblical illiteracy. Lifeway's Sunday School material isn't worth the paper it's printed on. They are sadly way too similar to Group Publishing, where their motto is "let's water the Bible down so much it is unrecognizable." These people are hungry for the Word of God! My wife teaches a high school S.S class and thankfully they've thrown out the quarterly S.S. books and gone with....surprise....THE BIBLE!!

I believe one of the posts mentioned pastoral authority. That is also a problem in many SBC churches. There is none at all in the BMA. The church I am in currently responds well to loving pastoral leadership, however I am afraid we are in the minority!

I would wholeheartedly send young men and women to schools like BJU, Maranatha, Northland, Tennessee Temple, Faith Baptist Bible College & Seminary (Iowa), Central Seminary (MN), Detroit Seminary, and Calvary Bible College & Seminary (MO). However, I couldn't endorse the Hyles-Andersons, Texas Baptist College, Pensacola, or Midwest.

Wow.....after all this I may be looking for an IFB church!!

P.S. We have Patch the Pirate Club at our SBC church!! Pretty funny huh!!

As a SBC Sunday School teacher I would agree whole heartedly about the materiel from lifeway. It is pretty much useless, epecially for kids. They focus most of the class time on games and crafts and about 5-7 minutes on the lesson. I looked at it and pitched it. While we are talking about problems in the SBC lets not forget 3 other big ones, Calvinism, not speaking out against speaking in tongues, and probably the biggest (from my point of view) is the idea that there is nothing doctrinally different between us as Baptists and say the Catholic Church or other "Christian" denominations. As I see it the Bible illiteracy problem that you mention is due in large part because the SBC is so concerned about embracing all denominations and trying to work with every one to evangelize we are forgetting that winning souls is only one part of the great commision. We are also supposed to be teaching and training the new converts so they can then grow in grace and win others also. From my point of view it is kind of hard to effectivly preach the doctrines of the Bible when you are trying to say that we are the same as the Catholics, Methodists, Assembly of God, etc. Effective Bible preaching would ruin that assumption.

 

[Pipedude]

the tentative title, On Being a Rice.

Converted Rice.

 

[TomVols]

This is a joke, right?

As a SBC Sunday School teacher I would agree whole heartedly about the materiel from lifeway. It is pretty much useless, epecially for kids. They focus most of the class time on games and crafts and about 5-7 minutes on the lesson.

I've never seen this, as I know many of the writers of this material. Give me a date and which curriculum you're using as an example, please.

While we are talking about problems in the SBC lets not forget 3 other big ones, Calvinism...

This is only a problem if it is in your head. No problem here or anywhere else.

not speaking out against speaking in tongues

You obviously aren't paying attention. NAMB has published papers against this, the IMB has come under fire for disallowing missionary candidates who do this, and the whole flap at SWBTS with Dr. Patterson opposing a chapel speaker who said he had spoken in tongues and Dr. Patterson refusing to allow that sermon to be weblinked or media distributed.

and probably the biggest (from my point of view) is the idea that there is nothing doctrinally different between us as Baptists and say the Catholic Church or other "Christian" denominations.

Now I know you're joking. I guess Lifeway publishing all those distinctive guides about our differences with other denoms is just fiction or a waste of money? I guess our refusal to join NAE or BWA is part of our embracing other denominations, huh?

As I see it the Bible illiteracy problem that you mention is due in large part because the SBC is so concerned about embracing all denominations and trying to work with every one to evangelize we are forgetting that winning souls is only one part of the great commision. We are also supposed to be teaching and training the new converts so they can then grow in grace and win others also.

You're right about Biblical illiteracy. People not taking the time to know the Word is like people not taking time to know the facts about the SBC :thumbs: It's too much fun to listen to ear-tickling railings than the truth of the inerrant, infallable, inspired Word of God.

I believe you are well intentioned, but grossly misinformed. Let me encourage you to know the facts and then you'll be able to adequately assess things from a proper perspective.

 

[gb93433]

We (18-25) barely even knew the history of who "was" liberal or who was tolerant of liberals back then. Should we reopen healing wounds and base our separation on things in the past? My generation to tell you the truth, does not care for the past issues. We care for what people are doing now; tradition matters, but truth and present reality has more authority.

Liberalism was around when Jesus was on the earth. He dealt with many issues concerning liberalism and legalism.

Liberalism and legalism is an attempt to put God in a box.

 

[gb93433]

I've never seen this, as I know many of the writers of this material. Give me a date and which curriculum you're using as an example, please.

When I was pastoring in the SBC about 1998 or 1999 the SBC published a magazine for parents in which there was an article that embraced evolution without calling it evolution. When I informed the other pastors in our assocation everyone of them pulled the copies from their shelves.

Have you ever noticed that almost none of the writers for the SBC are professors?

Sometime read the commentary on Timothy by Lea and what you will read in some cases goes against what he wrote and believed. When I read his commentary what I read did not seem to agre with what I heard him say in class years earlier. A few years before he died I talked with him personally about that and he told me what he really believed and it was not at all what the SBC wrote in the book. They did almost the same thing with Leon McBeth (when they asked him to write a book) and because they did not like what he wrote they stopped publishing the book. He was disgusted. Broadman is not at all like any other publisher. They own the editing rights. I have been published twice and the company I worked with would not publish anything until we agreed. Broadman does not do that. Basically they want the author's name on the cover and then be able to write what they want if they disagee with the author.

 

[John of Japan]

Converted Rice.

As long as it's not "minute Rice." That stuff is terrible after you've had real Japanese rice!

 

[Jkdbuck76]

In answer to the OP:

The SBC does not tell us what to do at our church. Period.

 

[TomVols]

When I was pastoring in the SBC about 1998 or 1999 the SBC published a magazine for parents in which there was an article that embraced evolution without calling it evolution. When I informed the other pastors in our assocation everyone of them pulled the copies from their shelves.

Have you ever noticed that almost none of the writers for the SBC are professors?

Sometime read the commentary on Timothy by Lea and what you will read in some cases goes against what he wrote and believed. When I read his commentary what I read did not seem to agre with what I heard him say in class years earlier. A few years before he died I talked with him personally about that and he told me what he really believed and it was not at all what the SBC wrote in the book. They did almost the same thing with Leon McBeth (when they asked him to write a book) and because they did not like what he wrote they stopped publishing the book. He was disgusted. Broadman is not at all like any other publisher. They own the editing rights. I have been published twice and the company I worked with would not publish anything until we agreed. Broadman does not do that. Basically they want the author's name on the cover and then be able to write what they want if they disagee with the author.

Please cite the article and magazine in question. Anything espousing evolution would violate article II of the BF&M, which is the guideline for all publications.

I'm looking at 3 different pubs right now. A quick glance shows several professors as authors.

You're being nebulous about Dr. Lea and Dr. McBeth, so I have no idea what you're referring to.

Every solid publisher I've ever dealt with retains editorial priviliges, and I'd want the same thing. You do not want to do what some got in hot water doing, namely, rubber stamping anything without checking content. If you are contending that B&H or Lifeway should not have publishing standards, that's your opinion. I disagree.

 

[tinytim]

I love Lifeway's stuff, I think it is the best SS curriculum outthere... and I am not SBC. But it is very applicational, and practical.

Our church is ABC, but uses SBC curriculum....
Maybe I am a closet SBC!

 

[Jack Matthews]

As a SBC Sunday School teacher I would agree whole heartedly about the materiel from lifeway. It is pretty much useless, epecially for kids. They focus most of the class time on games and crafts and about 5-7 minutes on the lesson. I looked at it and pitched it. While we are talking about problems in the SBC lets not forget 3 other big ones, Calvinism, not speaking out against speaking in tongues, and probably the biggest (from my point of view) is the idea that there is nothing doctrinally different between us as Baptists and say the Catholic Church or other "Christian" denominations. As I see it the Bible illiteracy problem that you mention is due in large part because the SBC is so concerned about embracing all denominations and trying to work with every one to evangelize we are forgetting that winning souls is only one part of the great commision. We are also supposed to be teaching and training the new converts so they can then grow in grace and win others also. From my point of view it is kind of hard to effectivly preach the doctrines of the Bible when you are trying to say that we are the same as the Catholics, Methodists, Assembly of God, etc. Effective Bible preaching would ruin that assumption.

The SBC as a denomination or a convention, cannot interfere with the autonomy of a local church. Doctrine in Southern Baptist churches, like it is in an independent Baptist church, is worked out on the local church level. So you have variations and differences between the individual churches, and each congregation determines its own beliefs. To give the denomination or convention authority to determine those things would be to become something other than Baptist, because church freedom is one of the foundational, historical principles of Baptists.

If you can find a single place in the scripture where all these denominational divisions are approved, and the disunity of the body of Christ, separating into little groups of churches that all think they have the truth was Jesus plan for his church, then I'll go along with you. You do not have any more of a line on the truth and the correct interpretation of scripture as anyone you criticize.