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SBC vs. Independent

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Jack Matthews

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mjohnson7 said:
At this year's Missouri Baptist Convention, one preacher cited many statistics of SBC youth never darkening the door of a church after they turn 18. What a tragedy!!! Know what his solution was?? Evangelize more!! I was shocked.....this "great pastor" has no clue. This is an area the IFBs are right on target with (i.e. abandoning public education in favor of home schooling) and the evidence is the large number of their youth that attend Bible college and serve the Lord.

The statistic he most likely cited was a composite figure from several studies, including one at Carson-Newman College in Tennessee, along with George Barna, which shows that 80% of the high school students who are active in their evangelical church youth group in high school drop out of church by the time they finish college.

The study did not exclusively single out Southern Baptists. This is a figure that runs across the board, and includes youth in independent, Fundamental Baptist churches. The Barna study showed a higher percentage of home schooled kids drop out of church than those Christian youth who attend public school.

I've got three teenage boys living in my house, and an 11 year old. In raising them, I've tried to model my own faith for them, but I've worked very, very hard to try to put them in a position where the faith that forms and develops in them is their own, and not just an imitation of mine. We've put them in a Christian school, simply because we want them in an environment where the content of the scripture is integrated into their other subject matter and can be seen as practical to their life, and relevant, but we've also agonized over whether having them there puts them in a sheltered environment that will make them take their faith for granted, or burn them out on it.

About a year and a half ago, our oldest, who was then 15, went to school one morning and found out that his best friend had run away from home. He left a note behind saying that he was basically tired of having Christianity crammed down his throat, and he didn't see that his parents restrictions on his activities, forcing him to go to Christian school, and their overall treatment of him was consistent with their claims of faith. That shook us up a bit, since the three oldest boys we are raising in our home are siblings, and not our own kids. We sat down and had a long tal, offering our love and support, our committment to their protection and to their future, and our reasoning as to why we believed faith was important, promised our guidance, and talked about why they were part of a church and why they went to Christian school. The hardest thing I've ever done in my life was to tell them that I thought they were old enough and mature enough to make those decisions based on their own faith, and that they had choices in those matters. I held my breath for a while. They're not just "participants" at church, they are involved in ministries that they've chosen to be part of and that's why they go. The oldest one has a good grasp on the benefits of his Christian education, enough to see that he needs to be there, and the other two will follow his lead.

When we first started investigating Christian schools, we visited an IFB church school not too far from where we live. The uniforms the kids had to wear were enough to convince us that we wouldn't put our boys there, but there was no joyfulness in that school. We heard elementary teachers yelling at kids, I sincerely can't remember that a single person even smiled at us, and I am sure we were being judged for clothing styles and where we attended church. The only kids from that school that would have gone to a "Bible College" would have had to have been forced to do so, it sure wouldn't have been a free will choice.
Frankly, I saw nothing there to indicate those people knew anything about grace, mercy, forgiveness and the love of Christ.
 

johnk48

New Member
My uncle partored a IFB church in SF for 35 yrs and he and his brother were president of the IFB college there for longer. I grew up around IFB even though I attended a Conservative Baptist and later SBC church and now an Independant Bible Church with what I believe is great doctrine.
I have always agreed with separtion from the world, but secondary separation has always baffled me a bit. It seems that too much emphasis is spent on defining the differences than the commonality among brothers. I know we must stay true to the Bible but separating from those who are His children over smaller issues seems a bit too much. We all believe what we believe is totally in tune with God's original intent but I think if any one of us really understood perfectly God's intent we may have to separtate from ourselves to remain true to this secondary separation stuff. I am of the opinion that too much of this separation is doing more harm to the body of Christ than good. I don't know where the balance lies between keeping doctrine pure and fellowshipping with the whole body of Christ, but there must be a balance that meets Gods desire. Growing up around IFB kinda made me think that secondary separation was to massive a concern and not in tune with God's intent for His people. It seemed more emphasis was focused on this separation and the problems with eveyone not IFB than the Great Commission.
It's ironic to think that there are SBC folks and IFB folks, and others, who wouldn't think of fellowshipping and working together here on earth who will be very ashamed of their behavior when in eternity looking back, if we can look back. I've always been a bit confused about all this finger pointing when from our lofty doctrinal stance we point down at a true brother or sister in Christ. Those who deny the essential doctrines of the faith I don't count as brothers or sisters. Believe me, I have more fingers pointing back at myself than any other. I kinda like to point down at Reformed ( is it almost another gospel? ) and charismatic folks more than any other--so I'm guilty too.
 
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gb93433

Active Member
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TomVols said:
Please cite the article and magazine in question. Anything espousing evolution would violate article II of the BF&M, which is the guideline for all publications.

I'm looking at 3 different pubs right now. A quick glance shows several professors as authors.

You're being nebulous about Dr. Lea and Dr. McBeth, so I have no idea what you're referring to.

Every solid publisher I've ever dealt with retains editorial priviliges, and I'd want the same thing. You do not want to do what some got in hot water doing, namely, rubber stamping anything without checking content. If you are contending that B&H or Lifeway should not have publishing standards, that's your opinion. I disagree.

All my books are boxed up right now so I cannot give you the exact citation. Read in Lea's book about 1 Tim 3 what he states about deacons.

Dr. McBeth wrote a book that the SBC asked him to write on women in the SBC. They did not like the truth he wrote. They published a few copies and then stopped because the SBC leadership did not like it. I know for a fact that some books have been removed from the SWBTS library. When you go to SWBTS ask to see Dr. Dildays book on the authority and inspiration of scripture. When the trustees mentioned that he was not in accordance with scripture and that what he wrote in his book was against scripture I had to check it out for myself and found out that what the trustees said was a lie. When I noticed that a few of nmy friends and myelf went to the library to check out some of the books and noticed that they were removed from the shelf and could not be chekced out. When the trustees lied the books were removed. Why do you think that happened? Image?

I would never write for a publishing company that retains exclusive editorial rights to write what I never said and to misrepresent what I wrote. That is supportin the evil of lies. Broadman completely changed what Dr. Lea wrote about deacons in the NAC commentary on 1 Timothy. Very few professors write for Broadman anymore compared to years ago.

All of my publications have been though professional magazines in my field. Not one of them can say what I did not or change what I said to mean something else. Before the final manuscript the article is per reviewed or is discussed with me the author until we reach an agreement. Boradman used Lea's good name and integrity to sell their book and say what they wanted.
 

gb93433

Active Member
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mjohnson7 said:
At this year's Missouri Baptist Convention, one preacher cited many statistics of SBC youth never darkening the door of a church after they turn 18. What a tragedy!!! Know what his solution was?? Evangelize more!! I was shocked.....this "great pastor" has no clue. This is an area the IFBs are right on target with (i.e. abandoning public education in favor of home schooling) and the evidence is the large number of their youth that attend Bible college and serve the Lord.


I would wholeheartedly send young men and women to schools like BJU, Maranatha, Northland, Tennessee Temple, Faith Baptist Bible College & Seminary (Iowa), Central Seminary (MN), Detroit Seminary, and Calvary Bible College & Seminary (MO). However, I couldn't endorse the Hyles-Andersons, Texas Baptist College, Pensacola, or Midwest.

I would challenge you to compare the students who were on secular university campuses in the Navigators to any IFB or SBC church or school and see who is actually making more disciples and living for Jesus Christ 30 years later. I had friends from seminary who have gone down the wrong road but not one of my friends from my days of being in the Navigators has done that.
 

Jack Matthews

New Member
mjohnson7 said:
At this year's Missouri Baptist Convention, one preacher cited many statistics of SBC youth never darkening the door of a church after they turn 18. What a tragedy!!! Know what his solution was?? Evangelize more!! I was shocked.....this "great pastor" has no clue. This is an area the IFBs are right on target with (i.e. abandoning public education in favor of home schooling) and the evidence is the large number of their youth that attend Bible college and serve the Lord.

You realize that there are over 150,000 Southern Baptist students enrolled in Christian colleges, Bible colleges and seminaries related directly to the SBC or its state conventions, and another 40,000 enrolled in schools that have some connection to Southern Baptist churches? I realize that you IFB'ers can't get along with each other, so each one of you has a different configuration of schools that you endorse or don't endorse, but even if you lump them all together (heaven forbid you would have to agree on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!) the SBC figure is much larger. Wikipedia lists 32 of them with an enrolment estimated at 30,000. Do you include KJVO's, or exclude anyone that even picks up a more modern translation? Jack Hyles Yes or Jack Hyles No. Jerry Falwell our Hero or Jerry Falwell the sellout to the liberal Southern Baptists. Pensacola Christian Baptist Yes or Pensacola Christian Non Baptist.

Like any large literature publisher, Lifeway has its ups and downs. In some areas, particularly young adults, college students and pre-school, it is lacking. But in adult and youth publications, I'd strongly disagree. And at any rate, regardless of the teaching methods utilized, it is pretty soundly Biblical. I'd challenge anyone to point out something from Lifeway literature that wasn't. I know a lot of the old fashioned folks think talking in a southern acccent with a sing-songy cadence, lecturing on your own opinions about the Bible for an hour is "good Bible teaching," but you're not going to be very effective with youth and children, who will be bored to tears with that in about five minutes. Heaven forbid that youth and children would want to come to church. They ought to have to be compelled by authoritarian parents every week, so they can quit immediately upon getting out of the house. Don't tell me that IFB kids don't do that. I know too many of those to buy that line.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
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Jack Matthews said:
You realize that there are over 150,000 Southern Baptist students enrolled in Christian colleges, Bible colleges and seminaries related directly to the SBC or its state conventions, and another 40,000 enrolled in schools that have some connection to Southern Baptist churches? I realize that you IFB'ers can't get along with each other, so each one of you has a different configuration of schools that you endorse or don't endorse, but even if you lump them all together (heaven forbid you would have to agree on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!) the SBC figure is much larger. Wikipedia lists 32 of them with an enrolment estimated at 30,000. Do you include KJVO's, or exclude anyone that even picks up a more modern translation? Jack Hyles Yes or Jack Hyles No. Jerry Falwell our Hero or Jerry Falwell the sellout to the liberal Southern Baptists. Pensacola Christian Baptist Yes or Pensacola Christian Non Baptist.
Looks like this thread has gone from a "What's the difference?" thread to a "Let's bash the rascally IFBs" thread. :rolleyes:
 

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
Six Hour Warning

Agreeing with the following:
John of Japan said:
Looks like this thread has gone from a "What's the difference?" thread to a "Let's bash the rascally IFBs" thread. :rolleyes:
I am issueing a six hour warning.

No Earlier Than 0021 Eastern one of the moderators will close the thread.
 

El_Guero

New Member
I gotta note that I find it interesting that you did not cover this in your class . . .

But, I can understand your difficulty understanding it - there is a lot of information to understand.

And like some noted, there were some strong personalities in all of this (past and present) and their personalities caused some trouble.

But, worse than anything else, liberalism has destroyed the fabric of our society, our families, and our churches. It is our churches that should be the refuge from the world.

PreachTREE said:
I'm 23. I'm going to speak on my age group (18-25). One of our required courses is "Fundamentalism." I took this class last year; the thrust of the class is speaking on where/when fundamentalists and evangelicals split. From this class, we should know who to separate from.

We (18-25) barely even knew the history of who "was" liberal or who was tolerant of liberals back then. Should we reopen healing wounds and base our separation on things in the past? My generation to tell you the truth, does not care for the past issues. We care for what people are doing now; tradition matters, but truth and present reality has more authority.

I believe IFB institutions are trying to train their youngens to separate from those who they (older IFBs) separated from. We are being trained to fight their old battles. It's wrong in my opinion.
 

El_Guero

New Member
I have always had a lot of respect for navigators.

gb93433 said:
I would challenge you to compare the students who were on secular university campuses in the Navigators to any IFB or SBC church or school and see who is actually making more disciples and living for Jesus Christ 30 years later. I had friends from seminary who have gone down the wrong road but not one of my friends from my days of being in the Navigators has done that.
 

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
Thread Closed

As it is way past 0021, this thread is closed.
Squire Robertsson said:
Agreeing with the following:
I am issueing a six hour warning.

No Earlier Than 0021 Eastern one of the moderators will close the thread.
 
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