Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
GE: Were we not, born guilty and worthy of death, we would have had, an excuse for our sins.
HP: And what excuse would that be?
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GE: Were we not, born guilty and worthy of death, we would have had, an excuse for our sins.
Claudia: When Eve Sinned, who did God blame as the instigator of the sin?
Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: No. I am having a blonde moment. :smilewinkgrin:
Claudia_T said:What you all are failing to understand is that the Devil deceiving and tempting everybody is a sin that needs to be paid for. And that there is no atonement for the Devil, thus his sins could not be placed upon Jesus Christ and ultimately must somehow be paid for. Get it?
Ultimately the Devil gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. But first his sins must be placed upon his own head. Not upon the head of Christ, the Lamb.
BobRyan said:Well then you overlooked a key point in Lev 16. The Scapegoat is not a sin offering. It does not shed its blood. WITHOUT the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin - there is only paying your own debt.
THE ONLY way to have a substitutionary atoning sacrifice is to have a sin offering take your place - and die.
There is NO other option. Hence the NT calls Christ our High Priest AND the lamb of God and our "Atoning Sacrifice" but never never never never "The scapegoat" - which is "no sin offering at all"
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:"Without the shedding of blood there is NO FORGIVENESS of sin" Heb 9
Lev 17 "I have given you the blood to make atonement for the LIFE is in the blood"
11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
#1. The scapegoat is NOT the "sin offering" of Lev 16.
#2. Christ is both the sin offering AND our high priest according to the NT
#3. Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture.
ahhh - the inconvenient details of scripture seen once again to debunk "story telling".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:The LIFE of Christ - is LIVED before the Cross - in perfect obedience to the Law of God so that "HE WHO KNEW no sins became sin FOR US" -- that is not the model of the scapegoat being perfect - becoming sin for us and then being slain.
The LIFE of Christ AFTER the cross is as our High Priest as we see in Heb 7 and 8 - that IS NOT the role of the scapegoat - it is the role of the HIGH PRIEST in Lev 16.
Your spin failed again GE. Have another go at it.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:The LIFE of Christ - is LIVED before the Cross - in perfect obedience to the Law of God so that "HE WHO KNEW no sins became sin FOR US" -- that is not the model of the scapegoat being perfect - becoming sin for us and then being slain.
The LIFE of Christ AFTER the cross is as our High Priest as we see in Heb 7 and 8 - that IS NOT the role of the scapegoat - it is the role of the HIGH PRIEST in Lev 16.
Your spin failed again GE. Have another go at it.
In Christ,
Bob
GE said --
I don't know about others, but I see the scapegoat as a symbol (symbols always are imperfect) of Christ overcoming death...[/quote]
Paul "saw the High Priest" of Lev 16 as a symbol of Christ - AND so he stated it in Heb 4 and 7 and 8 and 9...
NT writers SAW the lamb of God in Lev 16 as a symbol of Christ AND SO they stated it IN THE NT!!...
YOU see the scapegoat as a symbol of Christ... and so YOU state it.
When you become an inspired source and author scripture as THEY did - then perhaps your views will have the weight of scripture.
But so far - I don't see that happening -
I don't mean to imply that you are not free to imagine anything you like - I just object when you claim that what you imagine has the weight of scripture.
For me - it does not.
The goat "demon" of Lev 17 and the goat of Lev 16 that is NOT the Lord's Goat and is NOT a "sin offering" and does NOT shed it's blood and is NOT a substitutionary atoning sacrifice - seem to point to the same thing.
In Christ,
Bob