Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: And what excuse would that be?
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Scapegoat
- Thread starter Tiggy
- Start date
HP: And what excuse would that be?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: It is not that God blamed the devil for anyone’s sin but his own. Sure it was via his influence that the first pair were brought down, but as you point out they were to blame for their own willful rebellion.
Everyone that is a moral agent is responsible for their own sin. Nothing, not even the devil, can 'make' one sin. Sin is the willful and voluntary act of disobedience against a known commandment of God. If force or coercion is involved, sin is not imputed.
What you all are failing to understand is that the Devil deceiving and tempting everybody is a sin that needs to be paid for. And that there is no atonement for the Devil, thus his sins could not be placed upon Jesus Christ and ultimately must somehow be paid for. Get it?
Ultimately the Devil gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. But first his sins must be placed upon his own head. Not upon the head of Christ, the Lamb.
Ultimately the Devil gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. But first his sins must be placed upon his own head. Not upon the head of Christ, the Lamb.
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: No. I am having a blonde moment. :smilewinkgrin:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Claudia_T said:
True - but even in the case of wicked mankind that refuses the Gospel - the blood of Christ though available for their sins - is rejected by them - and they too pay for their own sins.
Also the debt of sin of Satan is not only for tempting and engaging in evil with members of his own kingdom of darkness -- but also additional guilt for tempting and causing the sin and rebellion of those outside of his kingdom. Each aspect of sin - must be paid for. In the scapegoat symbol we see both the fact that the wicked are not participating in the atoning, substitutionary benefit of the sin offering we also see that each degree of sin and debt is being accurately accumulated for Satan so that he should suffer the penalty for every bit of it - but not in a substitutionary way.
It merely shows how ALL sin is finally resolved in payment where the wicked refuse salvation and pay for their own sins - and the rest have their sins covered by the substitutionary atoning blood of Christ. (Even though His blood was available to pay for ALL the sins of the wicked - yet by their refusal they must now pay for their own).
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:
GE:
How do you manage to put together: ""The scapegoat" - which is "no sin offering at all" -- using quotation marks?
The 'other option' you suppose is simple: The slain goat represented the 'sacrifice' Christ would suffer as; the 'scapegoat' represented the 'offering' Christ would "present" or "offer" - live- "before the LORD". Imperfect representations require more than one the Perfect; it's two aspects of the one thing: Atonement by the Lamb being Sacrificed as well as being Presented, "an Offering before the LORD". In Christ the two things become one; in the Promise the two animals showed forth the One Reality.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"Without the shedding of blood there is NO FORGIVENESS of sin" Heb 9
Lev 17 "I have given you the blood to make atonement for the LIFE is in the blood"
11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
#1. The scapegoat is NOT the "sin offering" of Lev 16.
#2. Christ is both the sin offering AND our high priest according to the NT
#3. Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture.
ahhh - the inconvenient details of scripture seen once again to debunk "story telling".
In Christ,
Bob
Lev 17 "I have given you the blood to make atonement for the LIFE is in the blood"
11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
#1. The scapegoat is NOT the "sin offering" of Lev 16.
#2. Christ is both the sin offering AND our high priest according to the NT
#3. Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture.
ahhh - the inconvenient details of scripture seen once again to debunk "story telling".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:
GE:
Another 'inconvenient detail of scripture' specifically for Bob Ryan:
"If Christ be not raised ... ye are yet in your sins."
And another:
"The (live) goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities"
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"Without the shedding of blood there is NO FORGIVENESS of sin" Heb 9
Lev 17 "I have given you the blood to make atonement for the LIFE is in the blood"
11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
#1. The scapegoat is NOT the "sin offering" of Lev 16.
#2. Christ is both the sin offering AND our high priest according to the NT
#3. Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture.
ahhh - the inconvenient details of scripture seen once again to debunk "story telling".
There is a REASON the scapegoat is NOT called the "Sin offering"
There is a REASON that a substitutionary atoning SACRIFICE is needed to forgive sins.
there is a REASON that the scapegoat is NOT killed.
There is a REASON the scapegoat makes anyone who touches it unclean.
there is a REASON the wicked - like the scapegoat do NOT engage in substitutionary atoning deaths --
But all this becomes "so much more Bible for GE to ignore".
As has already been stated - the point is that ALL SIN laid upon the scapegoat is simply the sin "guilt" of satan and the wicked that is ADDED for ALL the sin they tempted God's people to commit. This gets back to the Matt 18 and Luke 12:50-52 point that EACH sin - each act is paid for in the second death -- since it has it's own amount of guilt.
In Christ,
Bob
Lev 17 "I have given you the blood to make atonement for the LIFE is in the blood"
11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
#1. The scapegoat is NOT the "sin offering" of Lev 16.
#2. Christ is both the sin offering AND our high priest according to the NT
#3. Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat" - not in all of scripture.
ahhh - the inconvenient details of scripture seen once again to debunk "story telling".
There is a REASON the scapegoat is NOT called the "Sin offering"
There is a REASON that a substitutionary atoning SACRIFICE is needed to forgive sins.
there is a REASON that the scapegoat is NOT killed.
There is a REASON the scapegoat makes anyone who touches it unclean.
there is a REASON the wicked - like the scapegoat do NOT engage in substitutionary atoning deaths --
But all this becomes "so much more Bible for GE to ignore".
As has already been stated - the point is that ALL SIN laid upon the scapegoat is simply the sin "guilt" of satan and the wicked that is ADDED for ALL the sin they tempted God's people to commit. This gets back to the Matt 18 and Luke 12:50-52 point that EACH sin - each act is paid for in the second death -- since it has it's own amount of guilt.
In Christ,
Bob
Quote: "Who is Own Self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sin, should live unto righteousness: By whose stripes ye were healed" ... by whose LIFE ye were raised ... unlawful to say, or unlawful NOT to say? Refer Mt8:17, from Isaiah.
There is "no forgiveness of sin without", BOTH, "blood", AND, LIFE! Quote:
"Offer gift AND sacrifice for sin" (Hb.5:1) - 'gifts', LIVE. "... Thou shallt make HIs SOUL (LIFE) a offering for sin ... He was TAKEN FROM prison and from judgment (raised from the dead) for He was cut off out of the land of the living".
There is "no forgiveness of sin without", BOTH, "blood", AND, LIFE! Quote:
"Offer gift AND sacrifice for sin" (Hb.5:1) - 'gifts', LIVE. "... Thou shallt make HIs SOUL (LIFE) a offering for sin ... He was TAKEN FROM prison and from judgment (raised from the dead) for He was cut off out of the land of the living".
BobRyan:
"As has already been stated - the point is that ALL SIN laid upon the scapegoat is simply the sin "guilt" of satan and the wicked that is ADDED for ALL the sin they tempted God's people to commit. This gets back to the Matt 18 and Luke 12:50-52 point that EACH sin - each act is paid for in the second death -- since it has it's own amount of guilt."
GE:
Who ADDS to the Scriptures so wantonly!?
"As has already been stated - the point is that ALL SIN laid upon the scapegoat is simply the sin "guilt" of satan and the wicked that is ADDED for ALL the sin they tempted God's people to commit. This gets back to the Matt 18 and Luke 12:50-52 point that EACH sin - each act is paid for in the second death -- since it has it's own amount of guilt."
GE:
Who ADDS to the Scriptures so wantonly!?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The LIFE of Christ - is LIVED before the Cross - in perfect obedience to the Law of God so that "HE WHO KNEW no sins became sin FOR US" -- that is not the model of the scapegoat being perfect - becoming sin for us and then being slain.
The LIFE of Christ AFTER the cross is as our High Priest as we see in Heb 7 and 8 - that IS NOT the role of the scapegoat - it is the role of the HIGH PRIEST in Lev 16.
Your spin failed again GE. Have another go at it.
In Christ,
Bob
The LIFE of Christ AFTER the cross is as our High Priest as we see in Heb 7 and 8 - that IS NOT the role of the scapegoat - it is the role of the HIGH PRIEST in Lev 16.
Your spin failed again GE. Have another go at it.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:
GE:
You will not change your mind, I very well know. I answer for the sake of someone who might just.
BR:
"Your spin failed ..."
GE:
My 'spin' was the Scriptures.
BR:
"The LIFE of Christ - is LIVED before the Cross ..."
GE:
The life of Christ that atones for sins is His life which He "offers before the LORD", His resurrection-life ... "according to the Law of Indestructable Life". This is HIS, Life OF, 'perfect obedience to the Law of God'. Not, "the MODEL of the scapegoat being perfect" but the Scapegoat BEING "PERFECTED" through resurrection -- as each time referred to in Hebrews. It is He, who, having become sin for us, and 'then being slain' "AND WAS RAISED the third day according to the Scriptures" (2Cor15:5)
--- 'the LIFE of Christ AFTER the cross' AS our High Priest. Tis is not the 'role of' the scapegoat but the Antitypical Scapegoat in the 'role of ' the HIGH PRIEST of Lev 16.
"There is no forgiveness of sins WITHOUT, blood."
Forgiveness of sins imvolves and requires much more than the shedding of blood; it requires LIFE, first and foremost -- but life, not without its soul being offered an atonement for sins. That LIFE without the giving of it, is unthinkable; yet less of a reality without the taking up and offering of it a live, living, indestructable, immortal LIFE-entity, "before the LORD". That's the simplest explanation of the slain and live goats of the 'Law'.
Your 'Investigative Judgment' whim again contaminates the Gospel of free Grace ... inevitably and consequently.
Forgiveness of sins imvolves and requires much more than the shedding of blood; it requires LIFE, first and foremost -- but life, not without its soul being offered an atonement for sins. That LIFE without the giving of it, is unthinkable; yet less of a reality without the taking up and offering of it a live, living, indestructable, immortal LIFE-entity, "before the LORD". That's the simplest explanation of the slain and live goats of the 'Law'.
Your 'Investigative Judgment' whim again contaminates the Gospel of free Grace ... inevitably and consequently.
"For it is NOT possiblethat the BLOOD of bulls and of goats should take away sins."
The text continues with this word: "WHEREFORE":
"Wherefore when HE, cometh into the world (that is, is raised from the dead), He saith: "Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body (life), hast Thou prepared Me. In burnt offerings indeed for sin, Thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I (the I-Am of the OT), Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God. ... But This Man (Jesus Christ) after He had offered one Sacrifice-for-sins-for-ever, SAT DOWN ("exalted" "in the glory of the Father)" on the right hand of God. ... Having THEREFORE, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus by a new and living way, which He has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh", risen and glorified.
The text continues with this word: "WHEREFORE":
"Wherefore when HE, cometh into the world (that is, is raised from the dead), He saith: "Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body (life), hast Thou prepared Me. In burnt offerings indeed for sin, Thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I (the I-Am of the OT), Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God. ... But This Man (Jesus Christ) after He had offered one Sacrifice-for-sins-for-ever, SAT DOWN ("exalted" "in the glory of the Father)" on the right hand of God. ... Having THEREFORE, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus by a new and living way, which He has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh", risen and glorified.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
It remains true that Christ IS Called our High Priest and IS called the Lamb of God - but NEVER "the scapegoat" of Lev 16 that is NOT "the sin offering" EVEN in Lev 16!!
In fact the "goat symbol" that is NOT the sin offering is explained in Lev 17 as "goat demons".
ONLY THERE do we see the Bible commenting on that "type".
Christ did not live His life on earth as "the scapegoat" though some try to "imagine" what they do not "find" in scripture on that point.
Christ did not go to heaven following His resurrection as "The scapegoat" though some may try to "imagine" what they do not 'Find" in scripture when it comes to that point.
You would think that having such a clear picture on this point in scripture - that there would not be so much delusion arguing for Christ as "scapegoat" -- and yet we have that as a witness to the power of man-made tradition over the Word of God.
in Christ,
Bob
BR:
"Christ did not live His life on earth as "the scapegoat" though some try to "imagine" what they do not "find" in scripture on that point."
GE:
I don't know about others, but I see the scapegoat as a symbol (symbols always are imperfect) of Christ overcoming death and grave and entering into everlasting, Divine Life. I don't think the scapegoat is supposed to point to the life of Jesus before His death and resurrection. Therefore there was the slain goat.
"Christ did not live His life on earth as "the scapegoat" though some try to "imagine" what they do not "find" in scripture on that point."
GE:
I don't know about others, but I see the scapegoat as a symbol (symbols always are imperfect) of Christ overcoming death and grave and entering into everlasting, Divine Life. I don't think the scapegoat is supposed to point to the life of Jesus before His death and resurrection. Therefore there was the slain goat.
BR:
"YOU see the scapegoat as a symbol of Christ... and so YOU state it."
GE:
Lev16:20b-22 can in each and every aspect be reconciled with the atoning work of Christ ... MUST be reconciled, for their is no other Name ... NOTHING in that Scripture can be reconciled with the life and work of the devil, UNLESS one wishes to make the devil his saviour.
The typical sacrifices (provisionally) 'atoned' for sins and could not atone for sin unless killed - therefore is is stated that there is no forgiveness without blood for sins. That is for the sacrifices - as far as was concerned blood offerings. They could not live again; that's why.
But Christ must rise again -- cannot but rise again: and NO 'blood'-sacrifice could symbolise that! Therefore there were made 'offerings' of things NOT killed -- 'offered' without 'blood' -- through which also, atonement was in fact made; just as truly as with the 'blood'-sacrifices. But they being not 'bloody', these 'live' offerings are naturally exempt from the requirement of 'blood'. They while symbolising Christ in His resurrection, cannot but be, 'without blood'. The 'live goat' functioned for this purpuse and according to this rule.
You make the devil's availing that of the availing of indestructable life; You reverse the functions of Christ and the devil. You cannot be more seriously mistaken. Persisting in youre error, you certainly must end up blaspheming.
BR:
When you become an inspired source and author scripture as THEY did - then perhaps your views will have the weight of scripture.
But so far - I don't see that happening -
I don't mean to imply that you are not free to imagine anything you like - I just object when you claim that what you imagine has the weight of scripture.
For me - it does not.
GE:
Now hear BobRyan fully complying to all he has just said himself:
BobRyan: Quote: "The goat "demon" of Lev 17 and the goat of Lev 16 that is NOT the Lord's Goat and is NOT a "sin offering" and does NOT shed it's blood and is NOT a substitutionary atoning sacrifice - seem to point to the same thing."
Quote ends.
GE:
Now notice, that Leviticus 17 denounces the offering of sacrifices SLAIN and their BLOOD shod, as being 'goat-demons' (BobRyan's word). Was the 'live goat' of Lv16 "offered a sacrifice" like 17:7 syas? NO! But Bob Ryan the mighty man in Scriptures, say, these abominations and the LIVE goat of chapter 16, "seem to point to the same thing". Then he says of GE,
"When you become an inspired source and author scripture as THEY did - then perhaps your views will have the weight of scripture.
But so far - I don't see that happening -
I don't mean to imply that you are not free to imagine anything you like - I just object when you claim that what you imagine has the weight of scripture.
For me - it does not." End quote
GE:
Blame me if I throw it back into your face?
"YOU see the scapegoat as a symbol of Christ... and so YOU state it."
GE:
Lev16:20b-22 can in each and every aspect be reconciled with the atoning work of Christ ... MUST be reconciled, for their is no other Name ... NOTHING in that Scripture can be reconciled with the life and work of the devil, UNLESS one wishes to make the devil his saviour.
The typical sacrifices (provisionally) 'atoned' for sins and could not atone for sin unless killed - therefore is is stated that there is no forgiveness without blood for sins. That is for the sacrifices - as far as was concerned blood offerings. They could not live again; that's why.
But Christ must rise again -- cannot but rise again: and NO 'blood'-sacrifice could symbolise that! Therefore there were made 'offerings' of things NOT killed -- 'offered' without 'blood' -- through which also, atonement was in fact made; just as truly as with the 'blood'-sacrifices. But they being not 'bloody', these 'live' offerings are naturally exempt from the requirement of 'blood'. They while symbolising Christ in His resurrection, cannot but be, 'without blood'. The 'live goat' functioned for this purpuse and according to this rule.
You make the devil's availing that of the availing of indestructable life; You reverse the functions of Christ and the devil. You cannot be more seriously mistaken. Persisting in youre error, you certainly must end up blaspheming.
BR:
When you become an inspired source and author scripture as THEY did - then perhaps your views will have the weight of scripture.
But so far - I don't see that happening -
I don't mean to imply that you are not free to imagine anything you like - I just object when you claim that what you imagine has the weight of scripture.
For me - it does not.
GE:
Now hear BobRyan fully complying to all he has just said himself:
BobRyan: Quote: "The goat "demon" of Lev 17 and the goat of Lev 16 that is NOT the Lord's Goat and is NOT a "sin offering" and does NOT shed it's blood and is NOT a substitutionary atoning sacrifice - seem to point to the same thing."
Quote ends.
GE:
Now notice, that Leviticus 17 denounces the offering of sacrifices SLAIN and their BLOOD shod, as being 'goat-demons' (BobRyan's word). Was the 'live goat' of Lv16 "offered a sacrifice" like 17:7 syas? NO! But Bob Ryan the mighty man in Scriptures, say, these abominations and the LIVE goat of chapter 16, "seem to point to the same thing". Then he says of GE,
"When you become an inspired source and author scripture as THEY did - then perhaps your views will have the weight of scripture.
But so far - I don't see that happening -
I don't mean to imply that you are not free to imagine anything you like - I just object when you claim that what you imagine has the weight of scripture.
For me - it does not." End quote
GE:
Blame me if I throw it back into your face?