School Vouchers

[kmdiva]

Is it good for Christian Schools to accept any form of government funding? I have very mixed feelings on this issue and I'd be happy for any thoughts.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Is it good for Christian Schools to accept any form of government funding? I have very mixed feelings on this issue and I'd be happy for any thoughts.

Government funding comes with government strings.

 

[kmdiva]

Is there any way that a private Christian school can accept government funding and still remain under the establishment clause?

 

[StefanM]

Is there any way that a private Christian school can accept government funding and still remain under the establishment clause?

This already happens on the college level--Federal aid (loans, Pell Grants) is available at a vast number of Christian colleges.

 

[kmdiva]

Does anyone know any examples of where this has become a problem. I wonder if this is why the "Christian" university I attended for the first two years of my schooling was so secularized or if they had "sold out" long before the federal money started pouring in.

 

[StefanM]

I'm not sure about other colleges, but my alma mater (Williams Baptist College) is unashamedly Christian. You don't have to be a Christian to go there, but you are required to abide by codes of conduct and to attend chapel services.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Does anyone know any examples of where this has become a problem. I wonder if this is why the "Christian" university I attended for the first two years of my schooling was so secularized or if they had "sold out" long before the federal money started pouring in.

Just wondering, where did you go your first two years? And to where did you transfer. Jus curious.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am against vouchers because I think that the government will corrupt anything that they can get their hands on since all men are in a state of total depravity and the non-Christian majority is unredeemed from depravity. Having said that, I also think that any school has to conform to certain governmental standards such as those from the Board of Health or the Fire Marshall.

When federal money first was spent for local education, we were assured that it would not lead to federal control. Now we are faced with federal mandates such as No Child Left Behind wherein the federal government tries to force accountability for the expenditure of federal tax dollars. Under the Great Society of LBJ there was no accountability and the intellectuals stole the money spent on education.

American education is very poor: it is the most expensive in the industralized world and yet the American youth have the worst achievement levels in the industralized world. Some of the fault has to lie with the teachers who have all embraced the socialistic philosophy of John Dewey. Money is not the key to successful education.

In the old days, we had rugged Anglo-Saxon individualism to fight against big government. Nowadays cultural diversity says that we have different cultures but also tries to have us conform to one culture and one outlook on the world. Cultural diversity and liberal ideology hate rugged individualism.

 

[DeeJay]

You look at it as goverment money. I look at it as my money. The goverment says that all children are provided an education. I pay money into a fund so that can happen (still my money). Vouchers give me a say in how the money that I pay into that fund will be used for my child.

My gov just signed a voucher bill into law. It will be the first widespread universel voucher program in the country. Vouchers will be based on income from $500 to $3000. The avg. tax payer pays $3800 per student into the education taxes. The Avg. Voucher will be $2000. So when a child is removed from public school the district will not have the expence of educating that child but student will leave $1.800 in the school.

The only strings the goverment put on the private schools were this.
Must be outside of a home.
Must hire college educated teachers.
Must have once yearly SAT test
Must submit to audit once every four years to make sure the money is being used to fund a working school.

All reasonable strings.

 

[DeeJay]

I am against vouchers

Under the Great Society of LBJ

Some of the fault has to lie with the teachers who have all embraced the socialistic philosophy of John Dewey.

In the old days, we had rugged Anglo-Saxon individualism to fight against big government.

How interesting that you make an argument against a free market system useing the argument that the system is socialistic and the goverment is to big.

So because the goverment is to big and the schools are socialistic you want more goverment control and not free market in out schools. How does that make any sense?

You say that throwing money into the school system does not work. I agree with you. What makes products better in this country is competition. Pepsi is good because of coke. Honda is good because of Toyota. Vouchers are about free market and competition.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Government funding comes with government strings.

Rufus is absolutely correct.

A Christian school that accepts government funds (that is, taxpayer funds) must be federal regulation and oversight.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Does anyone know any examples of where this has become a problem.

There are some examples of this, I just don't happen to know them off the top of my head.

I'll do a bit of research and get back to this thread.

 

[The Galatian]

Anyone who hopes to dip into the public treasury without submitting to government control has let his greed overrule his commonsense.

This is why the very Conservative Texas Eagle Forum has strongly opposed vouchers.

If it's a liberal to suppose:

that if you don't like public buses, taxpayers should give you "transportation vouchers" to pay for a car;

that if you don't like the postal service taxpayers owe you "mailing vouchers" to use UPS instead,

then why is it conservative to suppose if you don't like the public schools that taxpayers owe you "education vouchers" to go to a private school?

It's just another way for education bureaucrats to get a grip on private education.

Bad idea. WIth government money, comes government control of your life.

 

[DeeJay]

Anyone who hopes to dip into the public treasury without submitting to government control has let his greed overrule his commonsense.

This is why the very Conservative Texas Eagle Forum has strongly opposed vouchers.

If it's a liberal to suppose:

that if you don't like public buses, taxpayers should give you "transportation vouchers" to pay for a car;

that if you don't like the postal service taxpayers owe you "mailing vouchers" to use UPS instead,

then why is it conservative to suppose if you don't like the public schools that taxpayers owe you "education vouchers" to go to a private school?

It's just another way for education bureaucrats to get a grip on private education.

Bad idea. WIth government money, comes government control of your life.

Education bureaucrats were very against vouchers. With vouchers they will have to compete with other schools because parents have the choice to vote with there feet. Now they will be somewhat accountable to parents and the public. Where before they could do as they please.

Public transportation should be paid for by bus riders that is why you have to pay to use the bus.

UPS users should be paid by the sale of stamps.

Anywhere that puts a large number of kids in one building will fall under some goverment regulation, no matter if they get voucher money or not. Your church can not block its fire exits, must have fire extiguishers, must meet some level of sanitary standards. As long as the goverment control is not unreasonable we accept the goverment regulations even in our churchs.

I take it you are against pell grants and other types of goverment scholarships?

 

[church mouse guy]

To clarify my stance here, let me first say that bus riders are highly subsidized by the federal treasury. Public transportation is considered a form of welfare for the poor who have to go to work but cannot afford a car.

The schools are in a state of collapse--the worst schools in the industralized world and the most expensive. Part of the reason is that teachers have accepted the ideology of John Dewey and progressive education and have given up on teaching subject matter in the hopes of bringing about new social attitudes concerning the role of the individual in a mass society. In other words, finger painting and baskey weaving have replaced the 3 Rs, and concern is about everyone getting along as a group and solving problems as a group.

Of course, competition will bring about some change in the public schools. One of the ways that Indiana has forced higher and higher spending on public schools with more and more dismal results has been a quirk in the Indiana law that allows school districts to spend as they please and fund it by raising property taxes within their disticts. Indianapolis schools waste a great deal of money on school busing with the purpose of obtaining some judge's idea of a necessary social result in spite of the severe shortage of oil used to propel the judge's ideas. This has destroyed not only neighborhood schools but neighborhoods themselves and made the city of Indianapolis almost wall-to-wall ghetto.

Part of what drives up the cost of public education is the public's indifference to education, as illustrated by redneck values that have infected not only whites but also blacks. A good school with education as its goal should not be overly expensive.

I do not know what the answer is but I know the problem dates from the end of World War II. I think that the answer lies in Christian education and private funding but I think that we also need to lower the federal tax burden so that women are not forced into the workplace doing the menial tasks that hold society together but benefit big business and big government at the expense of the middle-class family.

 

[kmdiva]

Just wondering, where did you go your first two years? And to where did you transfer. Jus curious.

I attended Oakland City University in Oakland City Indiana (founded by General Baptists) First as a Music Education, then as a Religious Studies major, I now attended Midwestern Baptist College as a Music and Religious Education Major.

I appreciate everyone's insight into this, still looking for examples if anyone has any.

 

[DeeJay]

Christian private schools are thriving right now. They turn folks away because classes are full (at least where I live). And that is with NO vouchers.

I dont see why they would change any of their teachings or the way they do things. If the regulations are not something they would do then they can just refuse the vouchers. There classes will still be full.

 

[Jack Matthews]

This already happens on the college level--Federal aid (loans, Pell Grants) is available at a vast number of Christian colleges.

These are direct aid to students, based on the student qualification or merit, not on the school they attend. At that, students who receive these grants must attend an accredited school, according to government standards.

You look at it as goverment money. I look at it as my money. The goverment says that all children are provided an education. I pay money into a fund so that can happen (still my money). Vouchers give me a say in how the money that I pay into that fund will be used for my child.

Sorry, but the government doesn't define or see it that way. The amount of money you pay into the system per year is only about half the amount that it would take any school, public or private, to educate just one student. Your taxes are combined with the taxes of businesses and other private citizens, including those who don't have kids in school, or who don't have kids at all, to fund the public education system. Those other contributors have an equal say in how that money is spent. That's why there is a difference between schools that are "privately funded" and schools that are "publicly funded." The moment a private school accepts public money, it becomes subject to the accepted standards of the entity that distrubutes the money. It is no longer privately funded, it is publicly funded.

I'd love to apply the "I look at it as my money," theory when I am doing my income taxes and paying my property taxes. That'd be great.

Christian private schools are thriving right now. They turn folks away because classes are full (at least where I live). And that is with NO vouchers.

Here, too, they are thriving. However, with tuition and fees at the decent schools averaging $15,000-$18,000 a year nationally, higher in some places, estimates are that only about 10% of the families in any given Christian church can afford to send their kids to a private, Christian school. Vouchers do not help the lower income people because they only average about $3,200 a year and the schools cannot charge the families of voucher recipients to make up the difference.

Corporations and businesses need to dip into their immense profits and help finance Christian education. In the long run, they will benefit from having a pool of potential employees with an academically advanced education and with the majority of them having Biblical core values integrated into their educational experience. Endowments and corporately funded foundations would take the load off families and allow many more students to attend a private, Christian school.

 

[The Galatian]

Christian private schools are thriving right now. They turn folks away because classes are full (at least where I live). And that is with NO vouchers.

Doesn't sound like a problem for them.

I dont see why they would change any of their teachings or the way they do things.

Like a parasite, it doesn't hurt much at first. That's the way it always happens. "We just need you to fill out one little form to qualify for vouchers." All that does is establish that they have the right to regulate your behavior.

If the regulations are not something they would do then they can just refuse the vouchers. There classes will still be full.

Um, yes. "We've decided that this voucher thing isn't working the way we wanted, Mr. Bureaucrat, and so we'd like to get our freedoms back. Please rescind all those regulations and keep your money."

And then Mr. Bureaucrat will smile and say "Why certainly! We'll remove all those regulations right away."

Won't he?

 

[Daisy]

To clarify my stance here, let me first say that bus riders are highly subsidized by the federal treasury. Public transportation is considered a form of welfare for the poor who have to go to work but cannot afford a car.

It is also a tremendous boon to employers by supplying them with a much larger pool of workers to chose from and thus lowering costs and raising quality.