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Schumer Caves
- Thread starter Reformed
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Baptist in Richmond
Active Member
Interesting....
Following your logic (above), a child of a convicted bank robber would not have to disgorge any money he/she received as a child of the robber, even if they know they were recipients of stolen money. The lawbreaking was done by the parent.
And exactly how do they meet the standard of the Book of James? Breaking the law is breaking the law. Are they citizens? Do they know they aren't citizens? Not sure I follow you on this point at all.
Again, honest questions. Thank you for replying.
Regards,
BiR
That's not my logic. Robbing a bank and being in the country illegally (for whatever reason) are vastly different crimes. If we invoke logic and try to draw it all the way through the scenario, we would simply take the young person that has been in this country since she was six months old and has grown up as an American, possibly knowing no other language than English, and unceremoniously dump her in Nicaragua with no resources, perhaps no native language skills, possibly no paperwork, etc., and washing our hands of all responsibility. Or we could take this person who has been with us since before her memory, exercise a bit of grace, and figure out a path to citizenship.
You referenced James in terms of their doing the right thing. These persons have registered with the federal government in good faith that our nation will do the right thing. They are not hiding.
Honestly, I am perplexed at the resistance to grace by Christians -- especially Christians of a Southern heritage.
Lincoln and the Radical Republicans could have stripped the property from every rebel soldier and their families and imprisoned or executed them in retaliation for the Civil War. Yet Lincoln attempted to pursue a course of grace for reuniting the nation. Only after his assassination did the Radical Republicans inflict harder penalties on the South that probably wouldn't have happened after Lincoln lived.
Moreover, all of us profess to be people who were formerly enemies of God, by birth and by nature, who have received a "path to citizenship" in the Kingdom of God through the graciousness of the Godhead and the work of Christ on our behalf.As recipients of that grace for the eternal kingdom, shouldn't we be advocates of grace for those who find themselves in difficult situations between temporal kingdoms of humankind?
NO!!!!! I don't want to pay for that!
It means he thinks the Dems have either a stronger or weaker position for the next battle.
LOL!
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
Baptist in Richmond
Active Member
We disagree. These are both crimes. In fact, I think they are both felonies.
Are they not still illegal?
Does that grace extend to the citizens of our country? For every scholarship given, there is a citizen who didn't receive it. For every spot in school, there is a citizen somewhere who didn't get into the school. Are you of the opinion that we are doing such a great job currently that we can afford to take care of illegals?
More importantly, the Democratic Party forced a government shutdown for people who aren't even citizens. One way of looking at it is that they put the perceived "rights" of these people above our civil servants, and men/women of the armed forces.
Can you really claim that? Don't forget that Lincoln also suspended habeas corpus while in office. It is also worth noting that he was assassinated just a few days after Lee's surrender at Appomattox. He never would have had the chance to "strip the property from every soldier and their families and imprisoned or executed them in retaliation for the Civil War."
So, in order to receive grace, don't we have to acknowledge that we don't deserve it? I saw a public demonstration of "dreamers" where they were demanding the right to citizenship.
Don't get me wrong: totally understand your thought process. I simply believe that our credit card is over the limit, and we simply don't have the money to save the world, especially given the immediate needs of infrastructure, and taking care of our veterans, saving social security, paying down the national debt, etc.
Regards,
BiR
I see you completely skipped dealing with my illustration.
They are in a quasi-legal state at that point. They await the disposition of the government.
These things are not zero-sum games. There are many school across the nation with plenty of room for students.
What would Jesus say about that reasoning? If we want to do it, we would figure out a way for it to happen.
I'm not sure why you expect me to defend the Democratic Party. However, I do object to you putting the word rights in quotes. God has called us to treat others with mercy, love and grace. Treating someone with dignity is a God-given right that does not come with citizenship.
Lincoln did a lot of things I don't agree with. I don't revere him as much as many do, but from the historical record, he wanted a gentle Reconstruction period.
I hope you recognize that Presidents can give instructions and have others carry them out. He did not have to be alive for orders such as that to be carried out. They would be carried out even more zealously if he were assassinated.
The registration of Dreamers is a pretty good sign that they acknowledge they are not citizens.
I saw some "Baptists" on television picketing a soldier's funeral holding up signs saying "God hates fags" and "God hates America." Does that adequately represent the beliefs of the persons in this forum?
Perhaps God would bless this nation if we started doing the things that Jesus wants us to do. Should we decide to do what God has called us to do, He would move the heavens and earth to ensure we had the resources to do it.
As to the effort to make bank robbery and unauthorized presence in the US parallel offenses, from what I understand there is a disconnect. Illegal entry into the US is a felony like bank robbery. However, mere unauthorized presence is a civil matter.
It should.
And how is that happening?
We will fine the Mexican government an entry fee for each illegal crossing the border.
HankD
And the Mexican government will laugh and go about their business.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Why is the “funny” emoji missing on so many posts; this os one where I would have used it.
Yea, ya know
Baptist in Richmond
Active Member
My apologies: I have been traveling.
Based on what I have been reading, it looks as if you are going to get what you want.
Trump To Offer Citizenship For Dreamers As Part Of Immigration Deal
Actually, no: I didn't. Both ARE crimes. That is a fact. Although it was a well-written response, there was nothing in the reply to refute my contention that both are crimes. Nothing in your “illustration” changes that.
In other words, they essentially go to the front of the line. How is that fair, especially to someone who is actively working within existing immigration laws to become a citizen?
Now that the passage could happen, anyone who attempts to immigrate according to the current immigration laws is wildly foolish. All they have to do is get pregnant, and give birth to a “dreamer.” With a “dreamer,” the existing laws no longer apply to you.
“Zero-sum Game?”
There is no limit to the costs. There are X number of vacancies at schools. That is precisely why one has to apply. Otherwise, they would simply report for class. Which schools have "plenty of room?" Do you have examples?
And as for the cost, the CBO is projecting almost $26 BILLION over the next 10 years.
S. 1615, Dream Act of 2017
That figure doesn’t include the costs associated with the parents of these dreamers? Am I to assume that they will be deported? (rhetorical question)
Okay, so with its passage, how many families will you be personally supporting?
That is the classical strawman argument. Please show me where I ever stated that I “expect you to defend the Democratic Party.”
Actually, that is not even my word:
Dick Durbin says debate over Dreamers is a ‘civil rights issue’
I was using Dick Durbin’s word.
Where did God give us the right to being treated with “dignity?” Jesus Himself was not treated with dignity. Look at the Christians in Iraq, Syria, the Sudan, and Libya are being treated.
And yet you introduced him into the discussion?
Not really sure why you introduced this into the discussion?
They were not carried out the way he would have wanted – by your own admission.
He was assassinated, not sure why you used the word “if.” Lincoln was assassinated, and they did seize the property of people after the war. Actually, they seized property during the war. Do you know who actually owned the land where Arlington National Cemetery is located?
Is that what that is? Or is it a sign of an alternative to pursuing citizenship through any means at their disposal?
You are referring to a group of people who are not only unaffiliated with any Baptist denomination, and are condemned by practically every Baptist organization. It also has nothing to do with dreamers.
The demonstration I saw was comprised of dreamers, and they identified themselves as such – in more than one demonstration in more than one city. In other words, more than just a few people living in Topeka, Kansas (and by some accounts – mostly relatives).
So, once again: how many families will you be personally supporting? Are you going to be cashing in your retirement accounts, selling anything you don’t really need, and using that money to support a family of dreamers? Perhaps they could live in your house (actually, that’s a great idea: you can support them directly). To quote you, this will be “God has called us to do.” Moreover: “He would move heavens and earth to ensure we had the resources to do it.”
With some of the zeal I have witnessed by many on television, on the web, in the newspapers, and in Congress, I expect to see fist fights among these people in an attempt to get to the front of the line to take these dreamers into their homes.
Regards,
BiR
Based on what I have been reading, it looks as if you are going to get what you want.
Trump To Offer Citizenship For Dreamers As Part Of Immigration Deal
Actually, no: I didn't. Both ARE crimes. That is a fact. Although it was a well-written response, there was nothing in the reply to refute my contention that both are crimes. Nothing in your “illustration” changes that.
In other words, they essentially go to the front of the line. How is that fair, especially to someone who is actively working within existing immigration laws to become a citizen?
Now that the passage could happen, anyone who attempts to immigrate according to the current immigration laws is wildly foolish. All they have to do is get pregnant, and give birth to a “dreamer.” With a “dreamer,” the existing laws no longer apply to you.
“Zero-sum Game?”
There is no limit to the costs. There are X number of vacancies at schools. That is precisely why one has to apply. Otherwise, they would simply report for class. Which schools have "plenty of room?" Do you have examples?
And as for the cost, the CBO is projecting almost $26 BILLION over the next 10 years.
S. 1615, Dream Act of 2017
That figure doesn’t include the costs associated with the parents of these dreamers? Am I to assume that they will be deported? (rhetorical question)
Okay, so with its passage, how many families will you be personally supporting?
That is the classical strawman argument. Please show me where I ever stated that I “expect you to defend the Democratic Party.”
Actually, that is not even my word:
Dick Durbin says debate over Dreamers is a ‘civil rights issue’
I was using Dick Durbin’s word.
Where did God give us the right to being treated with “dignity?” Jesus Himself was not treated with dignity. Look at the Christians in Iraq, Syria, the Sudan, and Libya are being treated.
And yet you introduced him into the discussion?
Not really sure why you introduced this into the discussion?
They were not carried out the way he would have wanted – by your own admission.
He was assassinated, not sure why you used the word “if.” Lincoln was assassinated, and they did seize the property of people after the war. Actually, they seized property during the war. Do you know who actually owned the land where Arlington National Cemetery is located?
Is that what that is? Or is it a sign of an alternative to pursuing citizenship through any means at their disposal?
You are referring to a group of people who are not only unaffiliated with any Baptist denomination, and are condemned by practically every Baptist organization. It also has nothing to do with dreamers.
The demonstration I saw was comprised of dreamers, and they identified themselves as such – in more than one demonstration in more than one city. In other words, more than just a few people living in Topeka, Kansas (and by some accounts – mostly relatives).
So, once again: how many families will you be personally supporting? Are you going to be cashing in your retirement accounts, selling anything you don’t really need, and using that money to support a family of dreamers? Perhaps they could live in your house (actually, that’s a great idea: you can support them directly). To quote you, this will be “God has called us to do.” Moreover: “He would move heavens and earth to ensure we had the resources to do it.”
With some of the zeal I have witnessed by many on television, on the web, in the newspapers, and in Congress, I expect to see fist fights among these people in an attempt to get to the front of the line to take these dreamers into their homes.
Regards,
BiR
I'm not going to bother responding to everything that came before this. You don't seem to get that I am not trying to prove that Dreamers are somehow in the country legally or that they have some sort of "right" to be here.
And I don't know how you can miss the fact that God has commanded us - in the Old Testament Law, in the Prophets, and through Jesus and the New Testament writers - that we should have compassion upon those who are strangers in the land and we should love our neighbor as ourselves. If you don't get that, I can't help you understand the rest.
I am advocating for grace (or as most "conservative Christians" who voted for President Trump are calling it, "amnesty") for the Dreamers because it is the decent and honorable thing to do.
But even if what you allege is true, I help support people in all kinds of situations all the time. My church works with refugees from all over the world (yes, even from the Middle East) who are placed in Fort Worth. Most of them don't need financial help, but we make their lives more comfortable and bring the gospel of Jesus to them. Many of them are Muslim. Moreover, I give of my resources to help the homeless and orphans or children who had to be taken away from their parents for various reasons. So I don't know "how many" families I have helped or will help, but you ask the question as if I am not a follower of Jesus who is called to give of what has been entrusted to me to anyone in need.
Your rhetoric (which is not original) has been previously used to suggest the horror of having foreigners stay in a WASP home. Frankly, if I had a larger home, it would not be a horror at all, but a way of passing on what was done for my grandparents, mother and aunt. When my mother's family came to the U.S. as refugees, they stayed in the home of relatives they had never met before - not speaking English, with only the clothes on their backs, and having no jobs lined up. Good Christian people helped them get started and figure out American society and they did well.
Moreover, the reason we don't see people rushing to serve their neighbors - especially ones that don't look like them - is the result of one or more of these situations:
(1) Many people don't know Jesus, even though they are in church and like to throw His name into conversation.
(2) Christian churches have essentially ignored the teachings of Jesus and focused on preaching an Americanized version of Paul's writings ripped from their direct context of being a disciple of Jesus. Paul didn't teach anything different from Jesus, but his writings can be misinterpreted unless they are seen as the natural working out of what Jesus taught.
(3) They lack simple faith in God to do what is right and are therefore, disobedient.
And I don't know how you can miss the fact that God has commanded us - in the Old Testament Law, in the Prophets, and through Jesus and the New Testament writers - that we should have compassion upon those who are strangers in the land and we should love our neighbor as ourselves. If you don't get that, I can't help you understand the rest.
I am advocating for grace (or as most "conservative Christians" who voted for President Trump are calling it, "amnesty") for the Dreamers because it is the decent and honorable thing to do.
The premise that the Dreamers are corporately a drain on the economy is false. Those of age pay taxes and will become productive citizens, earning their way forward and supporting all of us who will be retiring in 15-20 years.
But even if what you allege is true, I help support people in all kinds of situations all the time. My church works with refugees from all over the world (yes, even from the Middle East) who are placed in Fort Worth. Most of them don't need financial help, but we make their lives more comfortable and bring the gospel of Jesus to them. Many of them are Muslim. Moreover, I give of my resources to help the homeless and orphans or children who had to be taken away from their parents for various reasons. So I don't know "how many" families I have helped or will help, but you ask the question as if I am not a follower of Jesus who is called to give of what has been entrusted to me to anyone in need.
I give to help others from what I earn or windfalls that land in my lap, and somehow there is always enough. If you do what is right for others, God will give you the resources to continue the work. How do you not understand this?
My house is quite modest. We haven't spent our money on an enormous home with an enormous mortgage. Moreover, many of these persons don't need to stay with others (you realize that "Dreamers" are not whole families, right?) but simply need to have their immigration status resolved.
Your rhetoric (which is not original) has been previously used to suggest the horror of having foreigners stay in a WASP home. Frankly, if I had a larger home, it would not be a horror at all, but a way of passing on what was done for my grandparents, mother and aunt. When my mother's family came to the U.S. as refugees, they stayed in the home of relatives they had never met before - not speaking English, with only the clothes on their backs, and having no jobs lined up. Good Christian people helped them get started and figure out American society and they did well.
Thank you for seeing the importance of those statements. They are true, although you apparently don't believe them. What kind of a God do you worship that does not support doing good and instills a horror of giving unselfishly to serve the needy? It is either not the Christian God or you have been misled by the Americanized consumer god that is so popular in our culture.
Again... Dreamer usually have homes - the issue is their immigration status. You seem to be confusing Syrian refugees or illegal aliens who have come here as adults with Dreamers. It is really hard to take you seriously when you don't even understand the conversation.
Moreover, the reason we don't see people rushing to serve their neighbors - especially ones that don't look like them - is the result of one or more of these situations:
(1) Many people don't know Jesus, even though they are in church and like to throw His name into conversation.
(2) Christian churches have essentially ignored the teachings of Jesus and focused on preaching an Americanized version of Paul's writings ripped from their direct context of being a disciple of Jesus. Paul didn't teach anything different from Jesus, but his writings can be misinterpreted unless they are seen as the natural working out of what Jesus taught.
(3) They lack simple faith in God to do what is right and are therefore, disobedient.
Not rushing to the aid of criminals is not the same as not loving and serving neighbors. Christians should be concerned with justice and being law-abiding citizens of their countries; therefore, helping law enforcement find criminals so that they can be prosecuted is a very Christ-like thing to do.
Rewarding evil is not a Christian virtue.