Scott Brown Wins the People's Seat!!

[Marcia]

When we say "the end does not justify the means" in reference to our own actions as men I agree it is not so. The fact is we don't do much that isn't evil or, even if it is good, we do it for at least some evil purpose. Paul made that clear in scripture.

1) That doesn't make it okay.
2) This is not the issue here.

God may use evil men because of His providence. He even used one evil man as an apostle to accomplish His will. Whatever means He wills to be are fully justified by whatever end He wills to be. I do not question God's sovereignty.

And God cannot do evil. God does not go against his character. I would never say that for God, the ends justify the means in the sense that God compromises His moral or righteous nature.

Voting from Brown over Coakley is a choice that had to be made from what was available and Brown was the better choice. Christians who voted for Brown made the right choice. The alternative was to not vote at all and, thereby, assist giving a more or less certainty to the Democrat's agenda that would move forward quickly. There's no doubt the present assembly of Democrats would look more favorably upon abortion and homosexuality than the Republicans. Therefore, changing the mix a bit helped to lesson the possibility of the Democrats success. This had nothing to do with lowering the standards or justifying the means for the ends. There's probably not a single candidate ever elected that would fully represent every Christian principle over every Christian voter.

Well, this is your view and you have a right to it.

Some Christians just need to get over slamming other Christians who supported Brown to stop the health care legislation but still don't support abortion or homosexuality. Given that some versions of the health care legislation would have increased support for abortion it may, in fact, have been a win for that cause as well.

I am not slamming anyone; this is a red herring.

No matter what, it's still ultimately all in God's hands. God's will is still in effect even if we don't know for certain at what step in the process towards His ultimate end He may have us all

I agree.

 

[Dragoon68]

... This is not the issue here. ...

That brings us back to the central issue! Christians who voted from Brown instead of Coakley should rightly be happy that the pending health care legislation has been given a sound defeat for the time being. Brown's support of some abortion and homosexual issues in is some areas is in no way a discredit to their vote for him and does not mean they condone it.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

That brings us back to the central issue! Christians who voted from Brown instead of Coakley should rightly be happy that the pending health care legislation has been given a sound defeat for the time being. Brown's support of some abortion and homosexual issues in is some areas is in no way a discredit to their vote for him and does not mean they condone it.

How is healthcare a Christian issue either way?

 

[Dragoon68]

How is healthcare a Christian issue either way?

That would be a good topic for another thread! This one is about Christian's support for Brown to stop the pending health care legislation not being a bad thing in spite of Brown's position on abortion and homosexuality.

 

[NiteShift]

I'm kind of surprised you are using God this way. Does God use evil men because the ends justifies the means? I don't think so. The ends justifies the means is a clearly antibiblical principle if morals are involved.

Then you must have a problem with ISAIAH 45. And a problem with God using King Cyrus as an instrument to rebuild the temple. God says of Cyrus that "You have not known me", but used him to accomplish His will.

You may have to scold the Lord for letting the ends justify the means.

 

[Matt Black]

Or God using Nebuchadnezzar before that to punish the Kingdom of Judah. I would be wary though of trying to second guess God in this way and using it to influence one's voting behaviour - it's one thing for God to act this way, quite another for a mere human, however Christian, to do so.

 

[Marcia]

Then you must have a problem with ISAIAH 45. And a problem with God using King Cyrus as an instrument to rebuild the temple. God says of Cyrus that "You have not known me", but used him to accomplish His will.

You may have to scold the Lord for letting the ends justify the means.

"The ends justify the means" is a term to describe using immoral methods to bring about what seems to be a good end. God never commits immorality. Using King Cyrus is not immoral - this is a totally invalid analogy.

 

[NiteShift]

"The ends justify the means" is a term to describe using immoral methods to bring about what seems to be a good end. God never commits immorality. Using King Cyrus is not immoral - this is a totally invalid analogy.

Well Diogenes, my point was that God is able to use all sorts of characters to bring about His will, including an ass (the four-legged variety), or a king who doesn't even believe in Him yet.

As it relates to Pelosi-care, I am glad if Brown's election causes the bill to go down the flusher. I was also glad that the Chinese rejected any commitments at Copenhagen. It doesn't mean we think the Chinese leaders are pure, or that we would agree with them on any other issue.

 

[Johnv]

Only ignorance of the Gospel message would result in that kind of mocking.

You're kidding, aren't you? It is not mocking to take issue with someone who, in effect, says "God told me xxxx about a future event". Why? Because it's not scriptural. God does not engage in fortune telling. In fact, fortune telling is by definition occultic, and not scripture.

No matter how you slice it, claiming to have a divine revelation about a future event is not scriptural, and is, in fact, contrary to scripture.

 

[windcatcher]

Well Diogenes, my point was that God is able to use all sorts of characters to bring about His will, including an ass (the four-legged variety), or a king who doesn't even believe in Him yet.

As it relates to Pelosi-care, I am glad if Brown's election causes the bill to go down the flusher. I was also glad that the Chinese rejected any commitments at Copenhagen. It doesn't mean we think the Chinese leaders are pure, or that we would agree with them on any other issue.

I mostly agree.

The real evil in all of this is not in the outcome of the election or those who find cause to be thankful or those who find cause to weep......
but that it is causing a senseless division and angst within the body of Christ over something which is immaterial to doctrine or salvation and beyond our right to choose or effect outcome.

Futhermore, very few have made a genuine attempt to give reason to their posistion, or even make clear their position while attacking others. Basing arguments upon one's own feelings or the expressed feelings of others is alienating and invalidating and disrespectful. And it is making an arguement over a mercurial(movable) and irrational base (that which comes from the emotions) without exchanging relevent information and reasonings behind these emotions, or making an argument based upon substance.

Our stance against abortions on the BB is rather uniform and in agreement. There are a few who charge that some here are soft in their antiabortion stand, but present no proof.

The Bible says 'in everything give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus' ...... so, I suppose, a person could be praising God for the outcome of an election and be attacked on this board because, to those who oppose, they take a single element.... like abortion ..... and generalize and magnify that this person is praising God for the election of a baby killer without considering that this person may be praising God for other reasons... such as the conclusion of a nonviolent election.

I return to the fact that all three candidates were for abortion and none presented a clear opposition..... but some candidates did present a more agressive pro-abortion and pro-funding than others.

That this election was material to the people of Mass. and not national also means that few of us who heard the outcome had a depth of connection to the persons on the ticket or the issues..... For many of us, the first reports we heard was on Christian radio.... some conservative programs like VCY America, and they focused on what this might mean for Obamacare and an expression of backlash to this present administration and its Congress.

The MSM likes to take these reports and broad brush the conservative Christian Right as endorsing the winner and his posistion and feed into the impression that the parties and their platforms can do as they please and 'we will follow'. I find it sad that some are so willing to accept the opinions of judgements from those outside the Christian conservative camp as valid and attack those within without first making sure of their reason for attack. Also, it is not unusual for any party to take the enthusiasm of a group and generalize it into an approval or endorsement which wasn't given.

Yet some on this BB, instead of sharing the differences of which they maybe aware prefer to malign those who were thankful as siding with baby killers. This is a bold attack and false labeling the brethern without cause and without extending grace or laboring to expand understanding by sharing information. The best influence that intelligent folks like C4K and Marcia could do is to present the differences between the winner and those who ran and make their arguement based upon the issues which were represented by those running for office.... and, instead of lashing out against others, persuade them with discussions of other issues.... such as the advantage for considering a 3rd party candidate who may not win....

As it is..... we are raked over by mischaracterization of our own: Our reasons for being thankful aren't considered because someone in our ranks has already judged us to be 'baby killers', And no guidance for making voting decisions in such elections is given for our edification.

Neither major party is going to make a real difference in globalization or spending or war or abortion. A third party, except on a local level is unlikely to win or have broad influence whatever their platform or stand on issues. Still, we could become a significant block of voting backlash against both established parties if we all voted in our elections for the 3rd party candidate when ever and wherever we have that choice. However, if we do that blindly, we may actually promote others which are less representative of our moral, political, or economic position.

The bottom line....... regarding all of this........ what is the illuministic goal and outcome of all this debate which includes disrespecting each other and name calling? It is to stop our opposition. It is to have us sit at home and do nothing. It is to have us feeling victimized and powerless. It is to have us fighting each other or throwing up our hands saying 'we're helpless.... it doesn't matter to vote...... nothing changes.' And in the end, they win. We are not discussing real issues or formulating plans to influence politics but we are busy talking at each other, discussing each other (as I'm doing here) and misrepresenting each other and become victims of our own internal attacks instead of getting respectful clarification from each other.

 

[righteousdude2]

I Refuse to Argue....

You're kidding, aren't you? It is not mocking to take issue with someone who, in effect, says "God told me xxxx about a future event". Why? Because it's not scriptural. God does not engage in fortune telling. In fact, fortune telling is by definition occultic, and not scripture.

No matter how you slice it, claiming to have a divine revelation about a future event is not scriptural, and is, in fact, contrary to scripture.

... with those who have no knowledge of the Supernatural things that God does. There are plenty of scriptures that show that God provides visions and dreams, it is called prophesy, of things to come. This is how God warns, and prepares his people for future events. If you are calling me a "fortune-teller" than you are calling great men of the Bible fortune-tellers, too!

Get the blinders off your eyes JohnV, and stop calling me names for the things you fear, or don't understand. Could it be that you that have a problem... because you have painted a box in which you place the ability of God to communicate with His people?!? There is plenty of Scripture to support my gift, and none to support your words of judgment. So, drop it. I really don't like to go head-to-head with a spiritual half-wit.:Bang Head: Sorry for calling you a half-wit, but, it is no more demeaning to you, than your calling me a fortune-teller messing with the occult.

There are those who dabble in the occult; and there are those who are psychics; both of with I am not. T%here are two sides to knowing future things, and I belong to the side of prophesy, a God given gift.

Believe what you may... but, there will be a day that you will see just how wrong you really are. Your shortmindedness will not keep you from enjoying eternity, it will however, limit your skills in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I am comfortable where I am, and with the gift God has placed upon me in the form of a Mantle of Prophesy. I have come across many like yourself, and the truth is, your opinion does not matter to me. The ONLY thing that matter to me is what God thinks of me, and in Him, I feel perfectly fine. So back off. You've had your say, and I've had mine. Let's leave it at that. In the future, you are welcome to "ignore" anything I may write and post as prophetic in nature. That is your right.

Shalom, and Love in Jesus to you!

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[Marcia]

There are those who dabble in the occult; and there are those who are psychics; both of with I am not. T%here are two sides to knowing future things, and I belong to the side of prophesy, a God given gift.

I am comfortable where I am, and with the gift God has placed upon me in the form of a Mantle of Prophesy.

I am just curious - your profile says Baptist and you are a pastor, so a Baptist pastor believes in the sign gifts like prophecy in its form of having God's revelation to you of the future? Btw, you spelled it wrong -- prophesy is the verb, prophecy is the noun. So it's a gift or Mantle (really?) of prophecy.

I just never heard of a Baptist pastor who claimed to get revelation from God about the future.

 

[Johnv]

There are plenty of scriptures that show that God provides visions and dreams, it is called prophesy, of things to come....

Two things. First, you're not a prophet. Second, phophecy is not scripturally defined as telling something about the future, it's scripturally defines as telling something about the Lord. "Prophesying" in the NT is the act of telling people about God. It is not the act of predicting the future.

Get the blinders off your eyes JohnV, and stop calling me names for the things you fear, or don't understand.

My friend, the blinders are yours, if unintentional. God never does anything that's contrary to scripture. Predicting the future is contrary to scripture. If you believe you're getting supernatural visions predicting the future, you must acknowlege that this is not of God. There is no other position. Scripture expressly defines the spiritual gifts he gives to believers, and predicting the future is not one of them. Your position is a perversion of scripture, and this is something that must be called out. I'm not saying this out of disrespect, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm saying this out of concern for a member of the brethren.

 

[righteousdude2]

Yes, Yes, and Yes!

I am just curious - your profile says Baptist and you are a pastor, so a Baptist pastor believes in the sign gifts like prophecy in its form of having God's revelation to you of the future? Btw, you spelled it wrong -- prophesy is the verb, prophecy is the noun. So it's a gift or Mantle (really?) of prophecy.

I just never heard of a Baptist pastor who claimed to get revelation from God about the future.

I am ordained Southern Baptist, Marcia; I do believe in the gifts given in the NT and OT, and believe that which was given then, is still available today; and it is a Mantle [see below]:

4 results for: Mantle
mantle | nounmantle | verbMantle | biographical namelady's mantle | noun
Main Entry: mantle !man-t/ul
Pronunciation: \ ˈman-təl \
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mantel, from Anglo-French, from Latin mantellum
Date: 13th century
Results: b) a figurative cloak symbolizing preeminence or authority - accepted the ∼ of leadership.

And thanks for the English lesson. as to the proper use of the word prophecy/prophesy.:smilewinkgrin:

Pastor Paul:type:

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks for your concern...but, I'm fine as I am!

Two things. First, you're not a prophet... I'm not saying this out of disrespect, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm saying this out of concern for a member of the brethren.

I appreciate your concern Johnv... however, I know that which was given of to me of the Lord, and I will not forsake what I know as truth. You have demonstrated a tremendous depth of shallowness in understanding the supernatural ability of God to lead us.

For your information, I never said I predicted the future... I did say that I prayed for God to send someone, or something, to stop the progress of the health-care bill. I also stated that I was confident that "many" others prayed as I did, and that God did answer our prayers by sending Scott Brown.

I was able to predict his victory, prior to the election of being called by the news media, because I felt/sensed/knew that God had answered this prayer prior to the actual election day results. That is NOT outside the boundries of the Scriptures.

Interpreting the visons and dreams He gives does NOT make me a fortune teller... but, it does confirm my faith in God to do as He had shown me He was going to do. The truth is, I should have made the call for Brown a few days earlier, [but, I feared running into someone like yourself], because, I KNEW, that I knew, that God answered the prayers of MANY, many of His children.

If you choose to "split-hairs" and call me names for having the faith to make a stand and tell the brethren what He is going to do, than so-be-it! There were those who mocked the early prophets... there were those who mocked the Lord when He spoke of things to come...and there were those who mocked the Disciples/Apostles for doing and saying, and seeing things that were revealed to them through prayer. I suppose that John was a "fortune-teller" for writting The Book of Revelations?

I supposed you would have mocked and judged Peter for what he was led to do through the vision and prayers of others? You probably would have mocked and judged Peter when he told the prayer group that he was led of an Angel from the prison cell to their front door? Check out Acts 12:1-12. But, I suppose you don't believe in Angels, either?

Were Joseph and Mary "fortune-tellers" when they went through all the words that came from God to lead them to that barn in Bethlehem? What about the wise men being told to go to Bethlehem. Were they into witch-craft?

Everything I have been led to do is of the Word, and can be supported through the Word. Your attempts to discredit me, is nothing less than an attempt to discredit God, and His supernatural abilities to intervene, interact, and work here on earth through "visions, dreams, Angels, and the presence and power of the Holy Ghost."

Shame on you... and in Jesus, may your judgmental spirit be rebuked!! And, I rebuke you in the power, authority, and name of Jesus, as well as in His love!:jesus: Oh, and please don't think that I'm picking a fight with you, either!

It's time to put this to bed, brother. You have your views of God, and I have mine. If I'm wrong, let the Lord do the correcting. You and I've been called to be "WITNESSES" NOT judges! Don't you have some lost folks in need of hearing the Gospel message? That is your work and calling. It is not to be correcting those called to lead in the gifts [Ephesians 4:11 (NIV)]"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers." I did not say this... Paul did, and his teachings and writtings are Gospel, as opposed to your shallow attempts to discredit those who don't neatly fit into your theological box!


Shalom,

Pastor Paul

 

[Johnv]

I am ordained Southern Baptist, Marcia; I do believe in the gifts given in the NT and OT, and believe that which was given then, is still available today

And predicting the future is not one of the spiritual gifts given believers.

 

[Johnv]

I appreciate your concern Johnv... however, I know that which was given of to me of the Lord, and I will not forsake what I know as truth.

If you believe that predicting the future is included in that, then that's evidence that what you "know as truth" is not truth. No matter how you slice it, you can't get around that fact. Predicting the future is categorically classified in scripture as occultic. The fact that you do not recognize this demonstrates your own shallowness on the topic.

I never said I predicted the future...

Feeling the pressure, he now starts to backpedal.

If you choose to "split-hairs" and call me names for having the faith...

I'm not. I'm calling you out for incorrectly applying that faith in a manner which is grossly contrary to scripture. This is something I dont' do lihghtly, and something that a brother who has concern for another brother should do.

 

[just-want-peace]

righteousdude2 sez:

It's time to put this to bed, brother.

RD2,your adversary WILL NOT let up without having the LAST word. You may just as well drop the subject and let him glory in his self-imposed superior status 'cause this won't end until you do.

You cannot continue to cast pearls ----- before those who refuse to see what you are saying!!!!

Unless you have the same obsessive need to be "CORRECT" like him, all you are going to accomplish by trying to "explain" yourself over & over, is a rise in you own blood-pressure! It just ain't worth it.

 

[righteousdude2]

You Are So Right...

righteousdude2 sez:RD2,your adversary WILL NOT let up without having the LAST word. You may just as well drop the subject and let him glory in his self-imposed superior status 'cause this won't end until you do.

You cannot continue to cast pearls ----- before those who refuse to see what you are saying!!!!

Unless you have the same obsessive need to be "CORRECT" like him, all you are going to accomplish by trying to "explain" yourself over & over, is a rise in you own blood-pressure! It just ain't worth it.

That is exactly why I told him in the last response that it is time to "put this to bed!"

I can clearly see what you are saying, and I had no intention of going any further with this discussion. I know what I said; what I meant; and, I no longer intend to go any further with Johnv.

Thanks for your support, and for seeing through this guy and his desire to come out on top...

Someone once said, "You can't win an argument with stupidity!" There comes a point where all debates must end, and your post is an appropriate "exclamation point!" to this topic...

Your Brother In Christ,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[Johnv]

After private discussion with righteousdude2, we're in agreement to let this conversation end amicably. We have no wish to disrespect each other, which is often how these conversations come out. Righteousdude2 is a God-fearing man of the Lord, whom I respect highly, and I have no wish to give the impression of contention between the two of us. There are other, more important issues that the Kingdom needs tending to.