Scripture - given to the world or the Church?

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

While we are called to preach the Gospel to the unsaved, we are not called to share spiritual insight from Scripture with the profane any more than we are to give to dogs what is sacred or cast our pearls before swine.

I recall a humorously poignant story McGee told about a man some mockers invited to share with them. He stood up and essentially quoted that verse in application (“The Lord told me not to ‘…’”), then sat down.

If you want to call telling those men that “the gift of Scripture,” have at it. They got what they deserved, but I liken it to getting switches and ashes for Christmas instead of gifts.

I suppose one could also make a case for "the gift of hell" for the unbeliever, and maybe someone has.

 

[AustinC]

While we are called to preach the Gospel to the unsaved, we are not called to share spiritual insight from Scripture with the profane any more than we are to give to dogs what is sacred or cast our pearls before swine.

I recall a humorously poignant story McGee told about a man some mockers invited to share with them. He stood up and essentially quoted that verse in application (“The Lord told me not to ‘…’”), then sat down.

If you want to call telling those men that “the gift of Scripture,” have at it. They got what they deserved, but I liken it to getting switches and ashes for Christmas instead of gifts.

I suppose one could also make a case for "the gift of hell" for the unbeliever, and maybe someone has.

A friend of mine was living in sin (before I knew him). His mom sent him a Bible and prayed for him. He started reading the Bible. God convicted Him through scripture and saved him. He repented of his sins and is walking in step with the Holy Spirit.
God could have saved him by a different means, but God chose to speak to him through scripture.

 

[Van]

Scripture seems to be fairly clear that it is given to the believer in equipping and teaching those who are Christians.

2 Timothy 3:16-17: All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Romans 15:4-6 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture seems to teach that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for those who are being saved, but to the world it is foolishness.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Until recently I believe that this was a common belief among Christians. But I have discovered that not all Christians agree with these passages.

People can agree with the passages, yet disagree with your implied understanding of the passages.

Your first two passages support the premise that scripture is useful to believers. But these passages do not support the idea scripture is not or can not be useful to the lost. For example the Law is our tutor who leads us to Christ. Obviously scripture is guiding the lost.

Your last two passages can be understood is various ways. "Those who are perishing" could refer to any unsaved person, or to any person who rejected the call of the gospel. OTOH, the lost are preached to, and invited and some of those choose to trust fully in Christ.
2Thessalonians 2:14
It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JonC]

People can agree with the passages, yet disagree with your implied understanding of the passages.

Your first two passages support the premise that scripture is useful to believers. But these passages do not support the idea scripture is not or can not be useful to the lost. For example the Law is our tutor who leads us to Christ. Obviously scripture is guiding the lost.

Your last two passages can be understood is various ways. "Those who are perishing" could refer to any unsaved person, or to any person who rejected the call of the gospel. OTOH, the lost are preached to, and invited and some of those choose to trust fully in Christ.
2Thessalonians 2:14
It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree. But we also need to make a distinction between the gospel and Scripture as a whole.

I know some have used the narrative of Abraham and Isaac to introduce the gospel to other people.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. But we also need to make a distinction between the gospel and Scripture as a whole.

I know some have used the narrative of Abraham and Isaac to introduce the gospel to other people.

The Gospel is intended for the lost, while the rest is to train up and mature and equip the saints!

 

[Dave G]

God could have saved him by a different means, but God chose to speak to him through scripture.

There is no other means than God's word that He uses to "beget" someone ( James 1:18 ).
" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ( Romans 10:17 ).

It is His word, and His word alone that the Spirit uses to call His sheep to Him.
There is no other means under Heaven that a person truly comes to Christ, than by the preaching of the cross.
No other means that a person is brought to an understanding of their sinfulness and need of a Saviour, than by the very God-breathed words that He gave to His apostles and prophets.

 

[Dave G]

Obviously scripture is guiding the lost.

Obvious perhaps to you, Van.
Not to me.

1 Corinthians 1:18 should be enough to dispel the myth that the lost are somehow both willing and able to view the preaching of the cross as anything other than the foolishness that it is ( and always will be ) to them.

But if that is not enough, allow me to quote another in the hope that it will help:

" but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. " ( 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 ).

Preaching Christ crucified is, to the Jews, a stumblingblock.
To the "Greeks" ( Gentiles ) it is foolishness.

To them which are "called" ( both Jews and Greeks ) it is both the power and wisdom of God...
Not a stumblingblock, nor is it foolishness.

Your last two passages can be understood is various ways.

Scripture can be understood in only one way, Van.
There are an indeterminable number of ways that it can be mis-understood.

That is why constant study is so important.
So that we as believers may rightly divide it ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

"Those who are perishing" could refer to any unsaved person, or to any person who rejected the call of the gospel.

" Them that are perishing" literally means what it says...
Them that ARE perishing ( versus them that ARE saved ).

Those who are on their way to Hell...the unsaved.
They are the ones who reject the Gospel call as foolishness, just as 1 Corinthians 1:18 states.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

It is not a little interesting that someone would argue the Bible is somehow a gift for the world, but not the risen crucified Christ. The Bible is not for the world, though the Gospel is, but the Gospel is the message of the gift of Christ. Surely the irony here is not lost on the saved.

 

[Van]

Obvious perhaps to you, Van.
Not to me.

1 Corinthians 1:18 should be enough to dispel the myth that the lost are somehow both willing and able to view the preaching of the cross as anything other than the foolishness that it is ( and always will be ) to them.

But if that is not enough, allow me to quote another in the hope that it will help:

" but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. " ( 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 ).

Preaching Christ crucified is, to the Jews, a stumblingblock.
To the "Greeks" ( Gentiles ) it is foolishness.

To them which are "called" ( both Jews and Greeks ) it is both the power and wisdom of God...
Not a stumblingblock, nor is it foolishness.

Scripture can be understood in only one way, Van.
There are an indeterminable number of ways that it can be mis-understood.

That is why constant study is so important.
So that we as believers may rightly divide it ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

" Them that are perishing" literally means what it says...
Them that ARE perishing ( versus them that ARE saved ).

Those who are on their way to Hell...the unsaved.
They are the ones who reject the Gospel call as foolishness, just as 1 Corinthians 1:18 states.

Once again Dave, you have ignored the verses I discussed and brought in other verses. But without discussion of the verses I addressed, you are just ignoring the evidence and presenting more disinformation.

Does 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 say the gospel is a stumbling block of each and every Jew? Of course not. How about each and every Gentile, is it foolishness? Nope, of course not. And the phrase "to those who are called" what does that mean? Your made up "inner call?" Nope, never mentioned. How about those who have been "called into His marvelous light?" Yes indeed.

I will agree scripture can only be understood "correctly" one way, but lets leave it that your way is a mis-understanding.

And BTW, those that are perishing includes those who have rejected the gospel, thus once again your attempted rebuttal fails.

OTOH, the lost are preached to, and invited and some of those choose to trust fully in Christ.
2Thessalonians 2:14
It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave G]

Once again Dave, you have ignored the verses I discussed and brought in other verses.

Once again, Van, I think that you are ignoring the relevance of the verses I brought in to "flesh out" what you've provided.

But without discussion of the verses I addressed, you are just ignoring the evidence and presenting more disinformation.

Again you appear to ignore my points and simply call what I present, "disinformation".
To me, its getting to be a habit with you, sir.

Instead of dealing with what I present and the points that I make, your replies generally consist of consigning anything that I say to, "disinformation", obfuscation" and the like.
How about... instead of dismissing what I present when I make my replies to points that you make, addressing my points with Scripture and Scriptural reasoning?

I would find that refreshing, Van, and would very much appreciate you tackling those points head on, instead of mostly doing an "end-around" on them.

Does 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 say the gospel is a stumbling block of each and every Jew? Of course not. How about each and every Gentile, is it foolishness? Nope, of course not.

I agree.
The passage clearly states that it is not foolishness nor a stumblingblock to them that are called, both Jew and Greek.

You don't see that?

I will agree scripture can only be understood "correctly" one way, but lets leave it that your way is a mis-understanding.

I'll understand it my way, and you're free to understand it your way.

I'm only relaying to you how I think that you should try looking at it, which is my right to express.
You are free to do the same.

And BTW, those that are perishing includes those who have rejected the gospel, thus once again your attempted rebuttal fails.

No man will do anything other than to reject the Gospel unless God makes it anything other than foolishness to him.
That is what 1 Corinthians 1:18-30 so clearly shows.

 

[Dave G]

It is not a little interesting that someone would argue the Bible is somehow a gift for the world, but not the risen crucified Christ. The Bible is not for the world, though the Gospel is, but the Gospel is the message of the gift of Christ. Surely the irony here is not lost on the saved.

I would say that one cannot know about one, without the other.

To me, the greatest gift is eternal life with Christ.
That can only be found by and through the word of God, the next-greatest gift.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I would say that one cannot know about one, without the other. To me, the greatest gift is eternal life with Christ.
That can only be found by and through the word of God, the next-greatest gift.

To be honest, DG, it's a little unsettling having a Calvinist agree to this degree on something like this. Just kidding.

Really, it was rather shocking to find there were those who didn't agree with something that had seemed so basic.

 

[JonC]

I think this is applicable here:

Any faithful interpretation of the Scriptures operates on different levels, the linguistic and the conceptual level, but unless the interpreter participates in the movement of God’s unique self-revelation through Christ and in the Spirit which gave rise to the Scriptures and has left its imprint upon them, he or she will fail to understand them in their deep spiritual dimension and will be blind to their essential truth content. (The Christian Doctrine of God, T. F. Torrance)

 

[Just_Ahead]

I'm guessing many of us here, like myself, have taken Bible courses at secular universities, where study Bibles are used as textbooks to prove that the Bible is an interesting work of fiction, a fascinating historical document, utilized by primitive, naive, gullible people, like ancient Greek or Norse mythology.

In light of this, I'd surmise that the Bible is written specifically for believers, not atheists or agnostics, who use the Word to ridicule and mock those who believe the Bible is the Word of God, those who say Jesus was merely a man, who wrongfully claimed to be the prophetic Messiah of Jewish lore.

alexander284,

Can you give us the names of specific study Bibles you are referencing?

Thank you.

 

[Just_Ahead]

McGee told about a man some mockers invited to share with them.

How do you listen to J. Vernon McGee?
I mean -- which of the TTB products do you find most helpful?

Thank you.

 

[alexander284]

alexander284,

Can you give us the names of specific study Bibles you are referencing?

Thank you.

1) The New Oxford Annotated Bible,

2) The HarperCollins Study Bible,

3) The New Interpreter's Study Bible,

4) The Access Bible.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

How do you listen to J. Vernon McGee?
I mean -- which of the TTB products do you find most helpful?
Thank you.

I’ve mostly caught him on the radio over the years and may have never heard a full broadcast. To tell the truth, his voice used to grate on me a lot, but at some point that somehow changed.

 

[kyredneck]

Scripture - given to the world or the Church?

Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:

Hebrews:
.....Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,.....

James:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;

1 Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter:
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John:
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

2 John:
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;

3 John:
The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth.

Jude:
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Revelations:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

 

[Just_Ahead]

1) The New Oxford Annotated Bible,

2) The HarperCollins Study Bible,

3) The New Interpreter's Study Bible,

4) The Access Bible.

The big three. I weed them out now and then in my Bible pasture -- my personal library shelf.

But I wink at them and they keep growing.

I have to be more discerning, more vigilant, stronger in my faith and works.

 

[JonC]

Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:

Hebrews:
.....Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,.....

James:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;

1 Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter:
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John:
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

2 John:
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;

3 John:
The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth.

Jude:
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Revelations:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

Amen. It amazes me these passages allude some Christians.