Scripture Supporting a Pretrib Removal of the Church

Deafmidweeker,

Didn't you know 'trumpet' of 1 Cor. 15:51-52 is also refer with Matt. 24:31 of 'trumpet'? Both are same mentioned about Christ's coming.

Clearly, Christ telling us, our gathering together shall be after tribulaiton at his coming - Matt. 24:29-31 is evidence of posttrib coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Deafmidweeker,

By the way, word, 'mystery' have do nothing with the timing of rapture. It speaks of unknown and never existed, or never had an experincing. Mystery of 1 Cor. 15:51-54 talking about the mystery of our body, show how is supernatural power that God will cause all our bodies shall be chnaged into immortality, and show HOW QUICK our body shall be changed into immortality in a twinkling of an eye.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Actually you completely misinterpret the passage you cite. Revelation 11:15-19 tells us that at the sound of the seventh and last trumpet

15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

No one doubts that God will destroy Satan in the lake of fire but these passages have nothing to do with a pretrib removal of the Church [I don't speak Latin.] </font>[/QUOTE]Speaking of misinterpretation, Old Reg has inserted some words into 1 Cor.15. (There is no seventh or last trumpet blown by an angel being spoken about.)

Typical false eisogesis.

Poor guy didn't catch the teaching of Paul either. When Christ comes he BRUISES Satan's head. It is BRUISED before the Son of Perdition STARTS his reign of 42 months. That is at the midst of the week.

I always know what to expect from some people. Absolutely nothing.

 

I see that you have the heart of a pastor but then I have come to expect nothing less from a follower of Darby/Scofield. </font>[/QUOTE]What does that mean? Are not willing to discuss the issues? This looks very much like an attack. I responded very graciously to you, admitting that I don't have an ironclad case for what I believe. I gave you a couple of places to start and closed by merely saying, If you are going to disagree, disagree with what we actually believe. Don't disagree out of ignorance. That wasn't an attack in the least. Your request for support for a pretrib rapture indicates that you are ignorant about our position. That is fine. I am ignorant about a lot of things. I usually try to learn before I disagree with them though.

 

You correctly state: "There is no one verse that teaches a pretrib Rapture". s</font>[/QUOTE]Just as I was correct that there is no one verse that teaches a post trib rapture.

Several problems with your passage and the number of resurretions. The verse applies to "all who are in the graves." What about those who may have come out of hte grave earlier? They would not be raised here since they are not longer in the grave. Is that possible? If you read Revelation 20, you see at least two resurrections: one before the 1000 years (v. 4) and one after the thousand years (the "rest of the dead" in v. 5). This is called the first resurrection. Why? Why call something the "first" is there is only one? Seems to indicate that we should expect a second. And there's no eisogesis in that at all. Two different resurrections are the clear statemetn fo the Scripture.

You see, you just can't pick a verse and then isolate it. You have to exegete it and then place it in the context of Scripture with a willingness to refine your exegesis if necessary by the analogy of faith.

So we see that your proof text for only one resurrection won't stand up with the rest of Scripture.

 

Quote from OldRegular:

"Actually you completely misinterpret the passage you cite. Revelation 11:15-19 tells us that at the sound of the seventh and last trumpet

15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

These verses do not apply to I Corinthians 15: 51,52. It is the 7th trumpet sounded by the 7th ANGEL! There is no mention of 7th trumpet or the 7th angel in I Corinthians 15:50-51:

51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

These verses say "LAST TRUMP"!!!! Not 7th Trumpet by the 7th Angel!

Deafmidweeker

 

Quote by DeafPosttrib:

"Didn't you know 'trumpet' of 1 Cor. 15:51-52 is also refer with Matt. 24:31 of 'trumpet'? Both are same mentioned about Christ's coming.

Clearly, Christ telling us, our gathering together shall be after tribulaiton at his coming - Matt. 24:29-31 is evidence of posttrib coming."

Jesus Christ said that the gathering of Matt. 24:31 is for the Jews, which is called "the elect", not the body of Christ!! Remember when Lord Jesus spoke the Olivet discourse, there is NO GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS present at that time! Only JEWS heard that, and they are the disciples of Jesus!! These disciples are LOOKING forward to the 2nd Advent and the Establishment of the Kingdom on earth which the LORD Jesus will rule with the rod of iron from the Throne of David in Jerusalam!

This gathering of the Jewish Tribulation saints matched up with the 6th seal of Revelation 6 and also with Revelation 14. LOOK it up, and find out.

The members of the Body of Christ will be changed into glorified bodies made like the glorified body of Lord Jesus Christ and will be raptured up in His POWER!! While the Tribulation saints will be changed in new bodies made like the angels of God, and brought up to Heaven by the FLYING CHARIOTS driven by the ANGELS!

Deafmidweeker

 

Thanks for OPENLY proving yourself wrong and myself correct in my statement again.

 

OldRegular,

No, not true. The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet sounded by the 7th angel.

The word "trump" is different from the word "trumpet". Both have different meanings.

Trump means sound.
Trumpet means a musical instrument, or any other instrument. To the Jews, it is called a "shofar".

DeafMidweeker

 

AMen, Brother OldRegular -- Preach it!

it is the last trumpet of Revelation
The 7th trumpet of Revelation is not:

1. the last trumpet of the Church Age
which will announce the arrival of the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection

2. The last trumpet of the trumpets blown
at the festivle of trumpets. The trumpets
there are
a) first trumpet
b) last trumpet
c) Great Trumpet.

 

Nope. I just looked the word trump up in an interlinear and the word for "trump" means trumpet.

The question is: is the last trumpet judgement of Revelations the same as the last trump in 1 Cor 15:52?

 

OldRegular: "The last trumpet is the last trumpet; the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet, period, Church age, any age."

We need your scripture proving this
outlandish statement. Thank you.

 

Nope. I just looked the word trump up in an interlinear and the word for "trump" means trumpet.

The question is: is the last trumpet judgement of Revelations the same as the last trump in 1 Cor 15:52? </font>[/QUOTE]I just read andbelieved the statement by the Holy Spirit from Paul, which states it is a SOUND.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the deat shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The last trump is the FINAL SOUND which comes from the trumpet in the verse. HOW MANY TIMES DID IT SOUND is the "real" question?

 

The last part after the colon decribes at the last trump (trumpet). The trump is not the sound, it is what makes the sound.