Scripture Supporting a Pretrib Removal of the Church

You show scripture proving I am wrong. You are good at eisegesis. </font>[/QUOTE]Now there's some "biblical exegesis". What hilarious nincompoopery and doubletongued doubletalk?

The poor brother mistakes the word last for seventh, as any Church of Christ mistakes water for baptism. (See John 3)

The seventh angel with a trumpet (never a seventh trumpet, last trumpet, or any other deluded false term)SOUNDS his trumpet for DAYS. (Rev.10)

It's SO EASY to CORRECT him with the Book.

 

The last part after the colon decribes at the last trump (trumpet). The trump is not the sound, it is what makes the sound. </font>[/QUOTE]No sir, brother.

The SOUND of the trumpet DESCRIBES the TRUMP which comes from the trumpet. They're DIFFERENT, according to the King James translators. I noted you had to SUBSTITUTE trumpet for trump.

 

The verse speaks of the SOUNDING of the trumpet, which RAISES the dead and changes the living. It's NOT the trumpet, but the SOUND of the trumpet which is ASSOCIATED with the resurrection of the body of Christ. It is the LAST TRUMP, i.e. the last sound.

The colon DEFINES the matter. last trump:for the trumpet shall sound

 

whew! I'm dizzy.

But it's a great thread!

HankD

 

How did Apostle Paul wrote of 1 Thess. 4:15-17, where he learned or received that passage come from? Paul learned about it by received the revelation from Jesus Christ while he was in desert for 3 years - Galatians 1:12,17-18.

There is a comparing of Matthew 24:30-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17 both are same. Because, Christ spoken about his coming and our gathering together.

That's how Paul received words from Jesus Christ - 1 Thess. 4:15 "For this we say unto you BY the word of the Lord...."

I make a chart of the comparing on Matt. 24:30-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17:

'coming' - Matt. 24:30
'coming' - 1 Thess 4:15

'clouds' - Matt. 24:30
'clouds' - 1 Thess. 4:17

'heaven' - Matt. 24:30
'heaven' - 1 Thess. 4:16

'angels' - Matt. 24:31
'archangel' - 1 Thess. 4:16(2 Thess. 1:7)

'sound' - Matt. 24:31
'shout' - 1 Thess. 4:16

'trumpet' - Matt. 24:31
'trump' - 1 Thess. 4:16

'together' - Matt. 24:31
'together' - 1 Thess. 4:17

'elect' - Matt. 24:31
'in Christ' - 1 Thess. 4:16

'winds' - Matt. 24:31
'air' - 1 Thess. 4:17

Both comparing of Matt. 24:30-31 and 1 Thess. 4:15-17 are fit perfectly.

Interesting, I looked at Tim LaHaye made a chart of the comparison of John 14:1-3 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17 in his book-'Charting The End Times' in page 114:

'trouble' - John 14:1
'sorrow' - 1 Thess. 4:13

'believe' - John 14:1
'believe' - 1 Thess. 4:14

'God, me' - John 14:1
'Jesus, God' - 1 Thess. 4:14

'told you' - John 14:2
'say to you' - 1 Thess. 4:15

'come again' - John 14:3
'coming of the Lord' - 1 Thess. 4:15

'receive you' - John 14:3
'caught up' - 1 Thess. 4:17

'to myself' - John 14:3
'to meet the Lord' - 1 Thess. 4:17

'be where I am' - John 14:3
'ever be with the Lord' - 1 Thess. 4:17

I agree with Tim LaHaye showed of the chart of the comparing of John 14:1-3 with 1 Thess. 4:13-17, both are fit perfectly.

Pretribbers cited John 14:1-3 proves it is pretrib coming. The problem is, Christ does not saying when or TIMING of his coming of John 14:1-3. John 14:1-3 is talking about the PROMISE that we shall dwell with Christ in our Father's house when Christ shall come again to receive us.

Strange, I notice most pretribbers seem not accept the clear comparing of Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess. 4:15-17 both are fit perfectly.

Why? Pretribbers KNOW Christ says, He will come after the tribulation in Matt. 24:29. That why, they saying Matt. 24:29-31 is speak to the "Jews", not us.

Deafmidweeker, we know that we are God's elect - Eph. 1:4; Col. 3:12; 1 Peter 1:2, and more...

Matthew 24- Christ was speak to his disciples, of course, they are Jews, but, also, they are believers or followers, just like we are believers or followers. Matthew 24 is clearly apply to us either Jew or Gentile who follow Jesus Christ. Christ never say or use word, "Jew" anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24. Obivously, Christ was speak to his followers, this passage is always speak direct toward us as followers, that we are God's elect.

Carl, you saying, Pauline gospel (13 epistles) are different from the four gospels. I disagree with you. You can easy notice John 14:1-3; and Matt. 24:30-31 both are clearly fit with 1 Thess. 4:13-17. Because Paul received words from Jesus Christ - Galatians 1:12, 17-18. Because, both Matt. 24:30-31; & John 14:1-3 were spoken by Christ's voice. That how Paul received Christ's own words through revelation in the desert (Gal. 1:12).

Pastor Larry, you saying posttrib rapture is not clearly find in the Bible.

Well, no excuse for you. You can easy reading many passages in the Bible is clearly telling us Christ shall come again after we face persecutions and tribulations first. Matt. 24:29-31 is probably the CLEAREST passage telling the timing of Christ's coming. No excuse for you and many pretribbers can read and understand what Christ says according Matt. 24:29-31. Why cannot you accept Christ's word?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

The gatherings of Matt.24 and 1 Thess.4 are distinctive OPPOSITES, not comparative doctrinal statements.. 1 Cor.15 is the COMPARATIVE teaching to 1 Thess.4, which reveals the whole.

The Thesssalonian gathering occurs BEFORE the wrath to come, while that of Matthew occurs AFTER the wrath is come by "simple belief of text".

(1 Thess.1, Matt.3,24)

The word of the Lord in 1 Thess.4 concerns Paul's progressive revelation of doctrinal truth for the body of Christ which concerns the mystery, those who believe his gospel, and the teachings associated with them. ALL of those things are said to be a MYSTERY revealed by the Lord TO PAUL. (Eph.3,6,1 Cor.15) Paul revealed the mystery, and Paul DID NOT STATE the Lord gave him what he had ALREADY revealed previously. THAT DENIES THE TEXT and is "complete" nonsensical infidelity to its words.

The word of the Lord concerns the WORD OF HIS GRACE, not the WORD OF THE KINGDOM, which was preached previously. Jesus Christ was preached by Paul, according to the NT REVELATION of the mystery (Rom.16), NOT OT PROPHECY as given unto the 12 apostles before Paul. (Luke 24)

 

Carl,

That is correct. Christians shall never suffer the wrath. Wrath is for send people to everlasting fire, who disobey the gospel of Christ, and not believe on Christ.

Show me where a verse in the context of Matthew 24:3-31 mentioned of 'wrath'?

You discuss about the word, 'mystery'.

Understand, mystery is speaking of unknown, not yet revealed. Mystery for the O.T. saints not understand the plan of God by send His son to Calvary. BUT, now God already make manifest the world both Jews and gentiles by through Calvary. No longer for the OT saints that were under the mystery, now they are already with the Lord in the heaven, even, OT saints are now member of the body of Christ as Church because of the result of Calvary.

Also, 'mystery' of 1 Cor. 15:51-57 is not discuss about the timing of rapture. It discusses about how mystery of our bdoy all shall be changed into immortality, we do not udnerstand of God's superpower, or supernatural to cause our body all shall be changed into immortality. Our body all shall be chnaged into immortality very quick like as twinkling of an eye. That what the mystery of 1 Cor. 15:51-57 talking about.

{Quote] Jesus Christ was preached by Paul, according to the NT REVELATION of the mystery (ROm. 16), NOT OT PROPHECY as given unto the 12 apostles before Paul (Luke 24)[/Quote]

Understand the 12 apostles were with Christ, during Christ's ministry one arth, daily animal sacrifices were contining while under the Old testament economy as they were still under the OT period. Old testament period ends by through Calvary, as the veil of the temple tore down from top to bottom, as Christ shouted, "It is finished." showed that the prophecies of the Old Testament books are fulfilled concerning of Christ and salvation of the cross.

Not just only revealation direct toward Paul from Christ by written 13 epistles of the New Testament. Also, 3 of the 12 apostles were also wrote epistles of the New testament, there is nothing difference between Paul's and 3 apostles written cocerning on Christ and the gospel, all of them are the same gospel. Not only Paul received the revelation, also, John, the Beloved received the revelation, by written the book of Revelation through the vision.

Word, 'revelation' means superpower communicate between God and men by through dreams, visions, signs, etc.

Do not forget Peter's vision of Acts chapter 9 or 10 talk about God cast net of wild animals down unto Peter in the vision. That was during New Testament period during Early Church history!

You should know better that Matt. 24:29-31 & 1 Thess. 4:15-17 both are same, because both passages was speak comes from Christ's OWN voice. That's how Paul received Christ's own voice through revelation.

The reason many pretribbers deny the clear comparing of Matt. 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 both are fit together perfectly, because of Matt. 24:29 says "Immediately after the tribulation..." that why many pretribbers dislike what Christ actual saying of Matt. 24:29.

Why cannot you accept what Christ saying of Matt. 24:29-31 that He will come again after tribulation to gathering us together?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Private interpretation RULES in bible teaching by others. Comparison of bible verses is out of the question for them. The verses have been presented over and over again, but they SIMPLY can't read them.

The Lord Jesus PREACHED the "same gospel" as John the Baptist. (Matt.3-4) He WARNED of the same period of time as JOHN DID(Matt.3), due to his preaching of the SAME GOSPEL. That gospel will be preached during the great tribulation. (Matt.24) John wanted to know WHO HAD WARNED THEM (the Pharisees) to FLEE from the wrath to come! (Matt.3) JEWS IN MATT.24 are FLEEING from the WRATH TO COME, which begins at the MIDST OF DANIEL'S WEEK, called the great tribulation by the Lord Jesus.

I posted both chapters in Matthew which could have been read and compared, BUT THEY WEREN'T.

I posted the fact that we, as the body of Christ, are DELIVERED from the wrath to come, while JEWS have to FLEE.

The wrath to come IS the great tribulation.

It's really simple to read, unless you BELIEVE a false doctrine.

That's why not a single word FROM THE CHAPTERS were commented upon and a FALSE INTERPRETATIONAL DIATRIBE presented instead.

The eyes of the blind can only be opened by the Father through the Holy Spirit. (Eph.1)

 

IMHO 1 Thess 4:15-17 is about the rapture/resurrection.
IMHO Matt 24:30 is about the power coming of Jesus.
IMHO Matt 24:31 is about the rapture/resurrection.

I note that the list of similarities between
Matt 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 lists 6 similarities,
between Matt 24:30 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 lists 3
similarities -- twice as likely Matt 24:31 is
more like the rapture/resurrection coming than
the coming of Jesus in power to destroy the antichrist.

Here are the differences between the two comings
of Jesus:
----------------------------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

 

DeafPosttrib: "Why cannot you accept what Christ saying ... "

Your question smells like a DOUBLE STANDARD. It is always
you who can accept what Christ saying and never
anybody who disagrees with you. Think about; pray/sign
to God about it. Recommend
you not embarass yourself again by using this question.

DeafPosttrib: " ... Old testament economy ... "

This wording will get you on the outs with your a-mill
buddies most of whom will have nothing to do with
dispensationalism. English 'dispensation" is the
translation of the Greek word from which we get 'economy'.

 

Side note to those whose mantra is "show a verse". Here are the addresses of the verses:

--------------------------------

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

Matthew 24:31-44 (in the Mount Olivet Discourse
---/mod/ and parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21)
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory
to defeat the antichrist and set up the
millinnial kingdom):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-19
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

Carlaimpinge: "I posted the fact that we, as the body of Christ, are DELIVERED from the wrath to come, while JEWS have to FLEE."

Amen, Brother Carlaimpinge. I've added that
to my list of diffences between the two comings
of Jesus:

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come

 

Carl,

You mentioned of Matthew chapter 3 and 4 warn about flee from the wrath.

I find in Matt. 3:7. John, the Baptist warned to the Pharisees, that they must repent of their sins flee from the wrath. Matt. 3:7 say nothing about seven year of tribulation period. It speaks of warning them, if they do not repent of their sins, will suffer the wrath from God, to send them into everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

The first part of your comment, I agree with you, that we as the body of Christ shall be delivered from the wrath to come speak of 1 Thess. 1:10; & 5:9.

The last part of your comment, that I do not agree with you.

Yes, Christ commanded to Jews to flee of Matt. 24:15-21, but, not just for Jews only only, also, command to believers both Jews and Gentiles, not just only in Jerusalem or Israel(Judea), also, over the world, that we must flee from the coming terrible persecutions under the Antichrist.

By the way, word, 'flee' is also find in Luke 21:36- "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Often pretribs use Luke 21:36 as 'proof' of pretrib rapture, because of word, 'escape' is the picture of rapture. That is their misintepreting of Luke 21:36.

Two things that Christ commands us of warning of conditional, that we must WATCH and PRAY, that we might be escape from all these things. OR, if we do not watch and pray, we shall suffer all of these things. What of 'all these things' speak of? Wrath and judgments. Not just only of these things, also, we all shall stand before Christ sit on throne - judgment day. If we do not watch and pray, then we shall face suffering punishment judged by Jesus Christ in the judgment day.

Pretibs teaching that both are same, as wrath is so called, "seven year of tribulation period".

But, the Bible never saying it.

Both are different meaning. Wrath is come direct come from God, for judging on people, who disobey Him, or not believing on him according John 3:36. Wrath is for to punish people, send them go into everlasting fire - lake of fire.

1 Thess. 3:3-4 telling us, that we are appointed for tribulations, because Christ suffered for us at calvary, so therefore, we ought follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21.

Jesus tells us that we shall suffer tribulations, but be cheer, because Christ overcometh them - John 16:33.

There is no promise in the Bible that we shall escape from the tribulaitons and persecutions. Look, Church history telling us, so many Christians already suffering from tribulations and persecutions. Cannot you see the facts of Church history telling us?

Also, Paul tells us, that we MUST go through MUCH tribulations enter the kingdom of God. - Acts 14:22.

Tribulations are for Christians, because Christ suffered on the cross, that why we ought follow Christ's example.

Ed,

Again, and again, I told you so many times, that you still break the Hermeneutic rule - Interpreting in CONTEXTUALLY. Because you separate Matt. 24:31 from Matt. 24:29-30. Obivously, you seem dislike what Christ actual saying of Matt. 24:29 - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation...". Why cannot you accept Christ's cleat teaching of Matt. 24:29-31 telling us, that Christ shall come again after tribulaiton, to gathering us together?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I wrote this post an hour ago, trying again:
Now i'll try removing the greek letters
still doesn't work???

The two parts will each post.
The two together will NOT post and i get
no error. Funny buggz

[ March 16, 2005, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

hour:
G5610
ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.

year:
G2094
ἔτος
etos
et'-os
Apparently a primary word; a year: - year.

 

Please use words in small dictionaries
like we have on our desk and on-line. Thank you.

Ah, here it is at dictionary.com :

eisegesis

n : personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas

Your statement sounds like a DOUBLE STANDARD. It is always
you who cannot use eisegesis and others who use eisegesis. Think about; pray/talk
to God about it. Recommend
you not embarass yourself again by bringing
this accusation against your brothers any more.

OldRegular: "However, thare is one passage of Scripture that teaches a General Resurrection and Judgment, John 5:28, 29."

If that were the only scripture on the matter,
you might be right. But there are many verses
on the matter (some noted in my posts above).

COnsider Rev 20:57 (KJV1611 edition):
But the rest of the dead liued not againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed & holy is he that hath part in ye first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be Priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reigne with him a thousand yeeres.
7 And when the thousand yeeres are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

This passage clearly teaches a 1,000 year time
period between the resurrection of the just
(first resurrection) and the implied last
resurrection. There is nothing in John 5:28-29 which
conflicts with this clear teaching in
Revelation 20.

John 5:28-29 (KJV1611 edition):

Marueile not at this: for the houre is comming, in the which all that are in the graues shall heare his voice,
29 And shall come foorth, they that haue done good, vnto the resurrection of life, and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection of damnation.

The only thing that could possibly be confusing
is the "hour" and the "1,000 years"

And 'year' in English means:
(from dictionary.com):

years - An indefinitely long period of time: it's been years since we saw her.

BTW, dictionary.com doesn't have my favorite
definition "the appropriate time"

So without going to Greek we can see
hour = the appropriate time
years = the appropriate time.

BTW, the HONEST counter argument to what i've
said is to pose other meanings of 'hour'
and '1,000 years'. A dishonest counter argument
is the 'eisegesis' mantra.

 

It's simply amazing that people can't respond to what is stated and presented from the scriptures, but respond ONLY from what they have READ in another book somewhere, which the POSTEE is not even teaching! They PRIVATELY interpret the verses OUTSIDE of the passage themselves.

These "expositers" SIMPLY can't read the words in the text or the post.

Quote:

You mentioned of Matthew chapter 3 and 4 warn about flee from the wrath.

I find in Matt. 3:7. John, the Baptist warned to the Pharisees, that they must repent of their sins flee from the wrath. Matt. 3:7 say nothing about seven year of tribulation period. It speaks of warning them, if they do not repent of their sins, will suffer the wrath from God, to send them into everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

Unquote.

No, I STATED the WRATH TO COME as the text, not wrath. Can you READ that verse?

I didn't SAY anything about a 7 year tribulation. You did quoting preweek rapturism advocates. Can you READ what I said?

The text doesn't state a thing about the WRATH OF GOD, to send them into everlasting punishment, or the LAKE OF FIRE.

That is not IN THE TEXT, but interjected by yourself, for it is FALSEHOOD. You didn't READ it there. It's a PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.

The text CONCERNS the wrath to come. John asked the Phariee's who had WARNED them about FLEEING from it. That WARNING concerns the TIME OF GREAT TRIBULATION when people are to FLEE from Jerusalem due to the Abomination of desolation, not everlasting punishment or the lake of fire.

NOBODY FLEES FROM HELLFIRE in any bible in any language. It's NOT what the verse is talking about.

Good grief at the illiteracy.

 

Carl,

You discussed this of Matt. 3:7. John the Baptist was not discuss about the time of great tribulation when he was talking to the Pharisees, he never say the term of 'great tribulation' to the Pharisees of Matt. 3:7. John, the Baptist warned them, they must repent of their sins, or they shall suffer the wrath of God- judgement go to everlasting fire according John 3:36.

Matt. 24:15-21 do nothing with the wrath. Christ does not discuss about the 'wrath' of Matt. 24:15-21. Christ warned them who dwell in Jerusalem, they must flee from their homes, because the terrible persecutions will hit them, if they return back to their houses, soldiers will catch them, and persecute against them or killed them. That why, Christ warned them do not go back to their homes, because of persecutions.

Abosuletly, Yes. It find in Hebrews 2:3 says,"How shall we escape if we neglect SO GREAT SALVATION; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him."

It warns us, how can we escape if we reject the gospel, that means, no way that we can escape the wrath of God & everlasting punishment while reject the gospel.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Carlaimpinge: "It's simply amazing that people can't respond to what is stated and presented from the scriptures, but respond ONLY from what they have READ in another book somewhere, which the POSTEE is not even teaching! They PRIVATELY interpret the verses OUTSIDE of the passage themselves."

I can't wait until i retire and can spend all the
hours (60-minute hours) of every day (48-hour day) on-line.
Then i'll be happy

I have this reoccuring dream.
I'm ready to left click on the SEND button,
i've written the perfect post. My eisegesis is 0,
my exegesis is 100%. The post is definative in it's
subject area. It is a perfect post.
I'm troubled because, i'd like to read a bit for use
when I wake up, but my dreaming part of
my mind can't read