Scriptures calvinists must deal with...

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

AIC...once again, I am saying that God saves everyone He has planned to save. The scriptures do not teach that God wants to save everyone.
It is ONLY mercy that anyone gets saved.

And yet God says...

It is not my will that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

And it goes without saying that this is not an isolated passage. The principle is brought up consistantly, and forcefully, all through both the old and new testaments.

AiC

 

[Alive in Christ]

But the verse says ""But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." not "Because you do not believe, you are not of my sheep". The verse clearly says that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep.

And what came 1st, the chicken or the egg? :wavey:

 

[annsni]

And what came 1st, the chicken or the egg? :wavey:

Whatever we are told. Unless the sentence structure is completely different in the Greek, we see one is the cause of the other.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni...

Originally Posted by annsni
But the verse says ""But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." not "Because you do not believe, you are not of my sheep". The verse clearly says that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep.

Well, then you have a BIG problem on your hands. The view that you are suggesting is that God has already damned them to unbelief and perishing in hell.

While the scriptures clearly tell us that God DOES NOT want ANY to perish....

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And I would be sitting here typing for hours if tried to post every scripture that promotes that truth.

aIc

 

[Alive in Christ]

To all the Calvinists on here...

Do you share Christ with people when you have opportunity?

If so...why? For what reason?

If Almighty God has already designated the lucky ones for heaven, and has also designated the ulucky ones to eternal damnation, why evangelize?

I mean, its all already been settled. Before we were even born. The saved are saved. The condemned are condemed. Its been determined.

Do you evangelize for no other reason then to get them to go to a church somewhere?

 

[Iconoclast]

AIC,

And what came 1st, the chicken or the egg?

The scripture says the chicken came first.

Well, then you have a BIG problem on your hands. The view that you are suggesting is that God has already damned them to unbelief and perishing in hell.

While the scriptures clearly tell us that God DOES NOT want ANY to perish....



Quote:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If you understood 2pet3 correctly ,it is no problem at all.

God is most willing that many perish, multitudes......but none of the beloved

 

[Iconoclast]

To all the Calvinists on here...

Do you share Christ with people when you have opportunity?

If so...why? For what reason?

If Almighty God has already designated the lucky ones for heaven, and has also designated the ulucky ones to eternal damnation, why evangelize?

I mean, its all already been settled. Before we were even born. The saved are saved. The condemned are condemed. Its been determined.

Do you evangelize for no other reason then to get them to go to a church somewhere?

God has ordained the ways and the means.
he has elected many...he sends His word forth to all men,
The sheep hear and live....the goats mock, God , his word, and His people, and perish justly for their sins.

Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

much people....not all....not all must have a fair chance...much people.

A biblical christian obeys the gospel commision and seeks to bring the word of life to all he or she has opportunity to.

 

[annsni]

Annsni...




Well, then you have a BIG problem on your hands. The view that you are suggesting is that God has already damned them to unbelief and perishing in hell.

While the scriptures clearly tell us that God DOES NOT want ANY to perish....




And I would be sitting here typing for hours if tried to post every scripture that promotes that truth.

aIc

Yes, God does not want anyone to perish but they do, correct? So there's another part to the story here. Either God is too weak to get His way or there's something that is greater than His desire to have everyone saved. Calvinists believe that "something" is God's sovereignty and Arminians believe that it is man's will.

 

[annsni]

To all the Calvinists on here...

Do you share Christ with people when you have opportunity?

If so...why? For what reason?

If Almighty God has already designated the lucky ones for heaven, and has also designated the ulucky ones to eternal damnation, why evangelize?

I mean, its all already been settled. Before we were even born. The saved are saved. The condemned are condemed. Its been determined.

Do you evangelize for no other reason then to get them to go to a church somewhere?

Well, first of all, God doesn't "designate the unlucky ones to eternal damnation" because that is the natural end to their depravity. They happily go there. ALL are destined to the same end - it is not that God "designates" some to go there.

However, I will answer your question and it's a simple answer. We evangelize because God told us to.

Now for a more lengthy answer: I evangelize because God has chosen to sometimes use me to bring people the Gospel and I count it a privilege to work alongside Him to see a soul be saved. What a glorious thing it is to watch a new babe in Christ be born and while they would be born anyway in some form or fashion, what a joy it is to be there and be a part of it. It has refined me, grown me and encouraged me in a way that nothing else could.

 

[webdog]

Yes, God does not want anyone to perish but they do, correct? So there's another part to the story here. Either God is too weak to get His way or there's something that is greater than His desire to have everyone saved. Calvinists believe that "something" is God's sovereignty and Arminians believe that it is man's will.

You keep repeating that, but I asked a couple times already if desire = decree? Yes or no.

 

[webdog]

If you understood 2pet3 correctly ,it is no problem at all.

God is most willing that many perish, multitudes......but none of the beloved

Oh, this looks like fun. Apparently to understand a simple text we can add as many qualifiers as we want. If Scripture say God is not willing, we can reverse that to redefine willing and for none we can add "of the beloved" to make it work. The nerve to say WE don't understand it...

 

[Iconoclast]

In 2pet3:9 there are two words for willing ...thelo, and beulemai SP?

the verse is not speaking of God wishing for something to happen....

the verse means that God has decreed ,destined ,and purposed that none of the beloved elect will be lost.

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

The whole passage is a contrast between the godly, beloved , elect, foreknown of God......and the ungodly, who scoff, and resist the sovereign grace of God.....Just read the passage...stop mis-using it like it is a verse from a poem in english class, that the teacher wants you to re interpret it.

 

[webdog]

Appaently some have read the passage. Completely illogical for God to be patient with what amounts to Himself and desiring that none of the elect perish, as if is even a possibility. The devil is the author of confusion.

 

[DHK]

Well, first of all, God doesn't "designate the unlucky ones to eternal damnation" because that is the natural end to their depravity. They happily go there.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

You have a strange understanding of Scripture.
You say: "They happily go there."??????????

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh, this looks like fun. Apparently to understand a simple text we can add as many qualifiers as we want. If Scripture say God is not willing, we can reverse that to redefine willing and for none we can add "of the beloved" to make it work. The nerve to say WE don't understand it...

The fact is you do not understand it at all.If you understood it,in context it would not be a problem WD

work through the whole passage.....your view is wrong..flat out wrong.
Your view is not right. Your view contains massive error. Your view describes a god who cannot do what he purposes to do...he must answer to man.


Let me make it clear WD.....you are wrong here...and if you understood ROMANS 5:12-21....you would not post what you do...yes, back to that error.

The one error..leads to these others that you have posted in the past few weeks.

Work through the passage and show how it does not mean what many of us have declared it means.....enlighten us. Start at 3:1 and work down to the end as time permits.

 

[Iconoclast]

Appaently some have read the passage. Completely illogical for God to be patient with what amounts to Himself and desiring that none of the elect perish, as if is even a possibility. The devil is the author of confusion.

I will deal with the long suffering of God later, I know you have an issue with this. Must drive now, later wd.

Here is a clue....

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

also written by Paul.....and what was Paul discussing in Rom9? same idea ...right wd of course you agree with me....right:laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

The whole passage is a contrast between the godly, beloved , elect, foreknown of God......and the ungodly, who scoff, and resist the sovereign grace of God.....Just read the passage...stop mis-using it like it is a verse from a poem in english class, that the teacher wants you to re interpret it.

I don't agree with you, but let me give you the benefit of the doubt on this one verse. Even if it says what you say it teaches here, you can't get off so easy in this passage:

[God] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)
--This is even more forceful and the teaching of God's will that all be saved is more clearly stated than the passage in 2Pet.3:9. It is an undeniable truth that God's will is for all to be saved. It is also an undeniable fact that God's will is not always accomplished.

Thousands upon thousands of people pray "as Jesus taught them to pray,"
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

But is it? No. Rarely is God's will ever accomplished on earth as it is in heaven. Think about it. How is God's will accomplished in heaven? When you have that answer then compare it to those that pray this oft memorized prayer. In this context God's will is rarely accomplished.

 

[annsni]

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

You have a strange understanding of Scripture.
You say: "They happily go there."??????????

Yes they do - until they face the Creator. Then they realize that they were wrong. But have you ever spoken to an unsaved person about heaven and hell? I can't begin to tell you how many people have said they'd rather go to hell than heaven. Seriously. They go happily.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes they do - until they face the Creator. Then they realize that they were wrong. But have you ever spoken to an unsaved person about heaven and hell? I can't begin to tell you how many people have said they'd rather go to hell than heaven. Seriously. They go happily.

No Regeneration. I just attended an event with a cousin who told me that he would rather go to hell & be with his friends than heaven. Imagine that....and he was serious too.

 

[webdog]

The fact is you do not understand it at all.If you understood it,in context it would not be a problem WD

work through the whole passage.....your view is wrong..flat out wrong.
Your view is not right. Your view contains massive error. Your view describes a god who cannot do what he purposes to do...he must answer to man.


Let me make it clear WD.....you are wrong here...and if you understood ROMANS 5:12-21....you would not post what you do...yes, back to that error.

The one error..leads to these others that you have posted in the past few weeks.

Work through the passage and show how it does not mean what many of us have declared it means.....enlighten us. Start at 3:1 and work down to the end as time permits.

I get it, I'm wrong just because you say I'm wrong...and not only here, but everywhere we disagree! The shock!

Of course you cannot consider your understanding of these texts to be in error.