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Scriptures Regarding the Pre Great Tribulation Rapture

He did not say, “You’re Mine, but you denied Me, so I deny you , but you’re still Mine.”

He said, “Depart from Me, you workers on iniquity. I NEVER knew you.”

That is crystal clear. They were never saved, and never would be.

Follow the scriptures.

Does 2 Timothy 2:10-13 as part of the faithful saying that a former believer that denies Him, He will deny him in vers 12 BUt even if we believe not, He is faithful for He still abides in verse 13?

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Would that not explain how those that do NOT depart from iniquity to be that vessel unto honor in His House, are still in His House but as vessels unto dishonor, the vessels of wood &earth BUT STILL in His House per verse 20?

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Since Jesus is still in that former believer even after he was denying Him verbally for why He will be denying him at the pre great tribulation rapture event, even though left behind, He still abides in that former believer for how and why he will die, his spirit be with the Lord in Heaven to wait for His resurrection after the great tribulation as that vessel unto dishonor in His House.

Any work of iniquity that denies Him, He will deny them as reprobates which means "disqualified".

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

That is not saying they are not saved but testifying that any work of iniquity that a saved believer is still engaging in by the time the Bridegroom comes, they will be denied ( disqualified ) by the Bridegroom form attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

That is where the vessels unto dishonor comes rom that are in His House.

If you disagree, then explain 2 Timothy 2:20 since those who depart from iniquity becomes vessels unto honor per 2 Timothy 2:21 and so that means those that do not depart from iniquity are at risk of being denied by Him in becoming that vessel unto dishonor but still in His House.
 
From 1 Cor 15:20 Blue Letter Bible

Inflected: ἀπαρχὴ
Root: ἀπαρχή
speaker3.svg

Strong's: G536
English: the firstfruits
Code: N-NSF
Long: Noun - Nominative Singular Feminine
Speech: Noun
Case: Nominative
Number: Singular
Gender: Feminine

You should prove all things with Jesus Chris in confirming His words rather than take to educated men as the final say.

Christ the first-fruit of the order

Not what I am reading here since it is plural and in relation to them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

For Christ to become the firstfruits of "them" that slept, then those that follow Him are to become firstfruits of the resurrection..

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You cannot have an order for men to be resurrected unless there are to be firstfruits at the rapture and then they that be Christ's at His coming.

Romans 8:23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 16:5Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:15I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

James 1:8Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Revelation 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
The last week of the earthly life and ministry of Jesus Christ on the earth mirrors the 7 thousand years of human history. It is just the manner and ways of God to unfold his plan of redemption and if one learns this truth about God it will make all things he says and does easier to understand.

Here is how those 7 days breaks down.
1) Sunday - the first day
2) Monday - the second day
3) Tuesday - the third day, the curse on the Fig Tree (symbol of national Israel) for having no fruit
4) Wednesday - The fourth day - the fig tree already dried up - death - the Olivet Discourse
5) Thursday - No prophecy - represents a thousand year day
6) Friday - No prophecy - represents a thousand year day
7) Saturday - a day of rest - represents a thousand year day

8) Sunday - the first day of a new week when all things are made new and a day without end.

Insert this following parable into the table at the end of day 4..

Lk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

This following is to illustrate the truth he had just declared about them repenting and knowing they will not.

6 ¶ He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. (fig tree = the nation, the vineyard = Judah)
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? (3 years = the ministry of Jesus to Israel)
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: (probation = 40 years see Heb 3 = 70 AD it was cut down and removed from the vineyard)
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. (the word 'then' is an adverb modifying the verb 'cut.' It will be cut down after the probationary time).

The temple of the Jews is where God met in the midst of his people and the destruction of it in AD 70 was not only symbolic of the departure of God from the nation but it was also actual and he has been gone for a long time and they were out of the land without a national identity from 70 AD to 1948 AD. The separation of God from his people is a death and it is not without significance that this people who was under covenant relationship with God which depends on a national identity has been all this time without one. And even as they now have a national identity, it is physical only because God is still in heaven and is not dwelling in their midst in their temple. They are still spiritually dead But they will be reborn when he comes in his glory to the earth and dwells with them in their midst in Mt Zion where he will place his millennial temple wherein is his that is described by Ezekiel beginning in his chapter 40, of all numbers.

So, if one is reading and discerning the prophetic parables during the last week of Jesus ministry on earth, most of which are spoken to Israel in the temple in Jerusalem, he will have the prophecy from that time until Jesus returns to deliver the Jewish nation wholesale, albeit there will be few Jews left in the land to save.

Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Lk 21 are all recording the same event that took place after Jesus left the temple for his final time on this earth at the end of the forth day and they are not parables, they are prophecies about Israel, and the church is not included anywhere in these prophecies. The reason one does not see prophecies in these chapters for Israel on days 5 and 6 (the church is built on these two days while Israel is in the graves) is because there is no passing of time for dead things. Therefore Israel is reckoned nationally dead from the destruction of the temple in Jesus day and is symbolically, and actually, buried in the graveyard of the nations and will not be be recognized again by God until the man of sin offers the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet and declares that he is God. This is the beginning of the second 3 1/2 years of the seven years and the breaking of a seven year covenant with Israel where he, the man of sin, who they have accepted as their savior, has promised to protect them and it is also the beginning of the dreadful and terrible "Day of the LORD." Only a few that have been saved during the first 3.5 years will ride the wave of the turbulent sea of judgement as the 8 people in Genesis rode upon the flood to the other side where all things were new and different. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun.

Here is the biblical order of things.

In the gospels Jesus came to establish his kingdom on the earth as he meticulously fulfilled all the OT prophecies about himself, but was rejected by his countrymen.
He pronounced a curse on that generation of Jews that it would not enter into his rest, and he put them on a 40 year probation, which ended in AD 70, the same year that ended the generation of Jesus Christ.
From that time forth, he reckoned his people as gentiles and fashioned a glorious , living and vibrant bride from the sleeping body of that Messiah they had been rejected and God the Father would, when she was complete, offer her to his son to be his wife. and would present her to him without spot or wrinkle. I advise reading Col 1 here. We call this the gathering of the church together and glorifying her with a new body.

Then he would once again turn his attention to the nation because God has a moral and a legal obligation to keep his unconditional covenants he had made to this people concerning their salvation and also the salvation of the world. He will during an intense war with the adversary rid the world of all rebels and establish his kingdom over no one but saved people.

So, the next thing is the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ. This leaves the world without a single saved person on it. This is described here in this verse;

Ps 12:1 «To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.» Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

This is a prayer from a Jew because of this condition.

So God sends two witnesses from the OT, Moses and Elijah, who preach the gospel of the kingdom, and it is believed and goes all over the world during the first 3.5 years of the seven.
and multitudes believe it and are saved, most to be eventually beheaded by the man of sin during the second 3.5 years, the Day of the LORD.

At the end of the seven years when the Jews and all mankind are about to perish, Jesus returns with his bride and rescues his nation and all saved people all over the world from Satan and his armies and destroys them.

Jesus reigns for a thousand years in perfect peace until a little season at the end.
 
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canadyjd

Well-Known Member
That above is the Second Coming, to initiate the Millennial Reign.

It is not what is called the Rapture, the Translation of the Saints.
There is no 1000 year reign on earth. That is a misunderstanding of Revelation.

Matthew 25 is definitive. Jesus describes His 2nd coming in response to their questions. He “comes in the clouds”, “sound of the trumpet”, angels gather the elect and immediately He describes the great throne judgment. This is clearly post trib rapture.

All of scripture declares believers will go through the great tribulation. It is during the tribulation that believers and false professors are revealed. Believers will be steadfast. The false professors will betray their brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers to avoid persecution. It is the great apostasy (falling away) that Jesus speaks of.

The passage from Revelation says nothing of a 1000 year reign on earth. It says those that were martyred during the great tribulation will reign with Christ for 1000 years (a reward for faithfulness during persecution””)

Jesus reigns in heaven.

peace to you
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You should prove all things with Jesus Chris in confirming His words rather than take to educated men as the final say.



Not what I am reading here since it is plural and in relation to them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

For Christ to become the firstfruits of "them" that slept, then those that follow Him are to become firstfruits of the resurrection..

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You cannot have an order for men to be resurrected unless there are to be firstfruits at the rapture and then they that be Christ's at His coming.

Romans 8:23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 16:5Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:15I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

James 1:8Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Revelation 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Weather singular or plural, to date, how many men born of women, have been resurrected, made alive, out of the death brought forth by man? Made alive to die no more, no more to return to corruption, incorruptible in body.

Methinks that is the beginning of the order of being made alive out of the dead, therefore, is that number one or more? If one, when will that number be increased to more than one?
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
I have followed the Scriptures, and the people in Matthew 7:21-23 are lost.

The 1000 year Reign of Christ, and the church ruling with Him, is as clear in Scripture as the resurrection of Christ.

There were Saints that were resurrected when Christ was resurrected. The first resurrection started then, and it will go all the way through into the Millennial Reign.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
….
The 1000 year Reign of Christ, and the church ruling with Him, is as clear in Scripture as the resurrection of Christ…..
There is no 1000 reign of Christ on the earth.

Please read the passage from Revelation again. It says those that are martyred during the great tribulation will reign with Christ for 1000 years. It does not say on earth. Christ reign is in heaven The 1000 year reign is a reward given to faithful martyrs.

Matthew 25 is definitive. Christ returns, the trumpet sounds, the angels gather the elect and immediately there is the great throne judgment

The whole pre-trib rapture/1000 year reign on earth/separate future for national Israel with a rebuilt temple was a 19th century misunderstanding that led to the modern charismatic movement.

It doesn’t stand the test of scripture

peace to you
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There is no 1000 reign of Christ on the earth.

Please read the passage from Revelation again. It says those that are martyred during the great tribulation will reign with Christ for 1000 years. It does not say on earth. Christ reign is in heaven The 1000 year reign is a reward given to faithful martyrs.

Matthew 25 is definitive. Christ returns, the trumpet sounds, the angels gather the elect and immediately there is the great throne judgment

The whole pre-trib rapture/1000 year reign on earth/separate future for national Israel with a rebuilt temple was a 19th century misunderstanding that led to the modern charismatic movement.

It doesn’t stand the test of scripture

peace to you


Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Tell me. Who are these people that have been made kings and priests?

Dan 2:38,39,44
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
In V 44 will that kingdom be on the earth?

@ MrW stated above
.There were Saints that were resurrected when Christ was resurrected. The first resurrection started then, and it will go all the way through into the Millennial Reign.

You can answer and so can he.

Those saints that were resurrected when Christ was resurrected - Were they resurrected to die no more, in incorruptible bodies as is spoken specifically of Christ?
Did they bodily ascend with Christ?
Did they return to their graves as did Lazarus? I wonder why Paul does not include them with Christ in 1 Cor 15?

Was the transfiguration a vision of something in the future? A vision of what?

Matt 19:28,29 YLT And Jesus said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that ye who did follow me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory, shall sit -- ye also -- upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel; and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name's sake, an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during shall inherit;

Does one inherit eternal life [life age-during] at the regeneration?
Does, "in the regeneration," have the same meaning as, "all who have died shall be made alive," as in 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.-?
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth……
The “four and twenty” elders are speaking here. Most likely symbolically representing the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel) and the 12 Apostles.

If you take it literally, then 24 elders will rule on the earth for an unspecified time.

No 1000 year reign on earth for Jesus can be found in this passage.

peace to you
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The “four and twenty” elders are speaking here. Most likely symbolically representing the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel) and the 12 Apostles.

If you take it literally, then 24 elders will rule on the earth for an unspecified time.

No 1000 year reign on earth for Jesus can be found in this passage.

peace to you

Rev 1:5-7 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Or maybe these and they will rule on the earth.

Coming? Coming to sit on the throne of his glory?
Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Will those kings and priests be resurrected from the dead when he cometh with clouds?
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Rev 1:5-7 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Or maybe these and they will rule on the earth.

Coming? Coming to sit on the throne of his glory?
Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Will those kings and priests be resurrected from the dead when he cometh with clouds?
The “throne of His glory” is in heaven.

There is no 1000 year earthly reign of Christ found in these passages.

peace to you
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
The “throne of His glory” is in heaven.

There is no 1000 year earthly reign of Christ found in these passages.

peace to you
There is no thousand year reign in Genesis either, nor Song of Solomon.

But there is a thousand year reign prophesied six times in The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:5-7 refers to many people. Matthew 19:28 refers specifically to the apostles Christ selected during His earthly ministry.
 

Jope

Active Member
Site Supporter
There is no thousand year reign in Genesis either, nor Song of Solomon.

But there is a thousand year reign prophesied six times in The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Check this link out:

 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
There is no thousand year reign in Genesis either, nor Song of Solomon.

But there is a thousand year reign prophesied six times in The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:5-7 refers to many people. Matthew 19:28 refers specifically to the apostles Christ selected during His earthly ministry.
Again, no passage in Revelation states Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years after a great tribulation. It just isn’t there.

I am open to being corrected if you can find such a passage

Peace to you
 

Jope

Active Member
Site Supporter
Again, no passage in Revelation states Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years after a great tribulation. It just isn’t there.

I am open to being corrected if you can find such a passage

Peace to you

Allow me to interject :D

So in Rev. 20:1-6, we read that they had to have experienced the great beast of the prior chapters in Revelation, in order to reject the option of worshipping said beast and taking its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Rev 20 NIV
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I'm sure I'm going to receive a response attempting to show how this WORLDWIDE (Rev. 13:7; etc.) political beast and the miracles/plagues of the previous chapters of Revelation have already transpired, but it's never been enough to persuade me. It is akin to believing the great miracles/plagues of Judeo-Christian history (e.g. the plagues against Egypt, the Joshua-sun-stand-still miracle, the Elijah/Elisha miracles, the Apostolic miracles, etc.) were just "figures of speech."
 
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37818

Well-Known Member
Revelation 20:7-8, . . . And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. . . .
 
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canadyjd

Well-Known Member
T
Allow me to interject :D

So in Rev. 20:1-6, we read that they had to have experienced the great beast of the prior chapters in Revelation, in order to reject the option of worshipping said beast and taking its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Rev 20 NIV
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I'm sure I'm going to receive a response attempting to show how this WORLDWIDE (Rev. 13:7; etc.) political beast and the miracles/plagues of the previous chapters of Revelation have already transpired, but it's never been enough to persuade me. It is akin to believing the great miracles/plagues of Judeo-Christian history (e.g. the plagues against Egypt, the Joshua-sun-stand-still miracle, the Elijah/Elisha miracles, the Apostolic miracles, etc.) were just "figures of speech."
Revelation 20 does not say Jesus will reign ON EARTH for a 1000 years. The context is that 1000 year reign with Jesus will be the reward for those Christians that endured the great tribulation (no pre trib rapture btw) and remained steadfast in the midst of great hardship. To make it about a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth misses the context.

Jesus’s throne is in heaven and is eternal

Additionally, John does not write in chronological order in his gospel nor in Revelation. He writes with repeating themes. What happens later chapters does not necessarily occur after the earlier chapters. At times, John is simply explaining on themes he introduced earlier.

It is ok to interject any time you want to say something. Come on in, the water is fine :)

Peace to you
 

timtofly

Well-Known Member
Again, no passage in Revelation states Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years after a great tribulation. It just isn’t there.

I am open to being corrected if you can find such a passage

Peace to you
There is no verse in Revelation that mentions the Church being caught up into the air, so was Paul wrong about that, since it is not in Revelation?

By your literal interpretation method there is no second coming, period. The first coming was Jesus on the earth. Since the second coming would be the same on the earth, then there is no second coming as Jesus is never on the earth a second time.

According to your interpretation of Scripture, there was a first coming to the earth, and in the future there will be another first type of appearance that is not to the earth. So no second coming like the first time. But a totally different appearance that is not a return nor a coming, but something different and a first time experience. Do you have Scripture to back up this interpretation that goes against the teachings of the church, proving the church has been wrong for millennia?

There is also no passage in Revelation that says Jesus will reign in heaven for a thousand years either. So where is Jesus reigning for those thousand years if neither in heaven nor on the earth?
 
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