Seeking truth about tongues (2)

[Don]

Because the previous thread was closed before we got an explanation from Awaken.

My last question was regarding ALL Christians praying in languages; to which Awaken said yes, they should. To which I asked, is Paul contradicting himself? Awaken indicated she knew which verse I was thinking of, that most people misinterpret it, and asked me to post the verse I was thinking of.

I responded with "the entirety of 1 Cor 12; and Eph 4:11." I considered including 1 Peter 4:10; but my question was about Paul contradicting himself, so we can address Paul contradicting Peter later.

I think that sums up where we left off.

 

[awaken]

Because the previous thread was closed before we got an explanation from Awaken.

My last question was regarding ALL Christians praying in languages; to which Awaken said yes, they should. To which I asked, is Paul contradicting himself? Awaken indicated she knew which verse I was thinking of, that most people misinterpret it, and asked me to post the verse I was thinking of.

I responded with "the entirety of 1 Cor 12; and Eph 4:11." I considered including 1 Peter 4:10; but my question was about Paul contradicting himself, so we can address Paul contradicting Peter later.

I think that sums up where we left off.

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." (1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts." (1 Corinthians 12:27-31)

It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up" (Ephesians 4:11-12)

First we need to look at all of the gifts listed in those scriptures.
I will start with faith...it is in 1 Cor. as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
Do you believe that only certain people will ever have faith?

Serving is also listed as a gift in Eph. 4...Do you believe that only certain people are to serve?

Teaching is listed as a spiritual gift. Do you believe that only certain people will ever teach?

Also... encouraging others, contributing to the needs of others, showing mercy to others, helping others, and so on are listed as spiritual gifts. Do you believe that only certain people will ever do these things?

Evangelism is listed as a spiritual gift. Do you believe that only certain people will ever share the Gospel?
All the above are for all believers, right?
We can also say that certain people will have a special gift or calling in these areas, right?
So would it be safe to say there are two forms of these gifts?

I see two forms of speaking in tongues! One is given at the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as I showed you earlier. Then there is tongues that is always to be interpreted...in church setting so that it edifies the church. This is the spiritual gift listed in 1 Cor. 12:7. In this setting the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation go hand in hand. In contrast, the private form of tongues is for praying to God in the Holy Spirit, and this is the form of tongues which all Christians are told to do.

What I see in 1 Cor. 14 is the correction of praying in the spirit/tongues in church without an interpretation. Not everybody has this gift!

 

[DHK]

First we need to look at all of the gifts listed in those scriptures.
I will start with faith...it is in 1 Cor. as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
Do you believe that only certain people will ever have faith?

We are not talking of "faith" per se, but the gift of faith. Not everyone has "the gift of faith." And many believe no one today has the gift of faith as it was distributed in the first century. But supposing it is for today there are very few Americans that know how to walk by faith, live by faith, etc.
Jesus said: "Go, sell all that you have, give to the poor, and come and follow me." Following that command would be living by faith. That is what many missionaries have done.
If you want a good example of that google "George Mueller." By faith he ran an orphanage in the 19th century. During his lifetime he cared for over 10,000 orphans. He also established 117 schools which offered Christian education to over 120,000 children, many of them being orphans. He lived his life by faith, having no regular income. They would gather at the table with no food often and pray. God would answer through some unbelievable means.

Serving is also listed as a gift in Eph. 4...Do you believe that only certain people are to serve?

Yes. God has called some to serve; some to be in the Lord's service full time; some to be His servants, and others to support them. The Word teaches plainly that his servants are to be counted as worthy of double honor.

Teaching is listed as a spiritual gift. Do you believe that only certain people will ever teach?

There are very few that have this gift and can exercise it properly. Only certain ones will ever teach, and will teach to their full potential. Read chapter 12 of 1Cor. Not every one has the same gift. Teaching is only one gift among several that only some of the members of the church had.

Also... encouraging others, contributing to the needs of others, showing mercy to others, helping others, and so on are listed as spiritual gifts. Do you believe that only certain people will ever do these things?

Though all should try, some have a gift of comforting others more than most. Not everyone has the same gift.

Evangelism is listed as a spiritual gift. Do you believe that only certain people will ever share the Gospel?

The best evangelists I know are missionaries.
Other evangelists are called of God to that particular vocation. It is a calling, not simply a duty. It is also a command, but some are called to do it full time.

All the above are for all believers, right?

No. They are not all gifts given to everyone.
Every one can do arithmetic, but not everyone has a gift in math and is a mathematician.

We can also say that certain people will have a special gift or calling in these areas, right?
So would it be safe to say there are two forms of these gifts?

No.
Evangelizing is an obligation for us all.
Evangelizing is a calling for some. As a calling it is normally accompanied with a gift.

I see two forms of speaking in tongues!

There is only one. It has now ceased. It was always in public, and never for prayer.

One is given at the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as I showed you earlier.

It has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as water baptism has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, though the two sometimes occurred around the same time period.

Then there is tongues that is always to be interpreted...in church setting so that it edifies the church. This is the spiritual gift listed in 1 Cor. 12:7.

That is the only gift of speaking in tongues or languages that was Biblical. And much of the time the gift was misused.

In this setting the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation go hand in hand. In contrast, the private form of tongues is for praying to God in the Holy Spirit, and this is the form of tongues which all Christians are told to do.

There is no example anywhere in the Bible of anyone ever praying in tongues. It is condemned everywhere. It is not Biblical.

What I see in 1 Cor. 14 is the correction of praying in the spirit/tongues in church without an interpretation. Not everybody has this gift!

The condemnation of praying in tongues.
The condemnation of speaking without an interpreter.
The condemnation of anything that makes no sense or has no understanding. That is not a gift.
The gift was a gift of languages--a language that the speaker did not know previously but now given to him he now knows and understands. It is therefore a gift.

 

[saturneptune]

Awaken,
I believe I had asked a question also. Let's assume the gift of tongues does still exist, although I do agree with DHK on this point. The Bible requires that the message come from the Lord, that it have an interpreter, and that the message be edifying to the church.

So, my questions were, assuming you have seen this process.

What did the message from the Lord sound like? What made everyone think it was genuine? Once the message was given, who interpreted it, and what did the process look like? After the interpreter was through, what was the message, and was it edifying to the church?

I agree with you that teaching is a spiritual gift and not a lot of people have it. I believe there is one in our church that does. I teach a small SS class, and the difference between me and this other person is glaring. I feel very inadequate at times, but it is better than having no teacher.

 

[BobRyan]

Awaken,
I believe I had asked a question also. Let's assume the gift of tongues does still exist, although I do agree with DHK on this point. The Bible requires that the message come from the Lord, that it have an interpreter, and that the message be edifying to the church.

So, my questions were, assuming you have seen this process.

What did the message from the Lord sound like? What made everyone think it was genuine? Once the message was given, who interpreted it, and what did the process look like? After the interpreter was through, what was the message, and was it edifying to the church?

In 1Cor 14 Paul does not say "you have a false gift of tongues - do not ever speak in tongues using that false gift no matter if you do it in order or not".

In 1Cor 14 it is the REAL gift of tongues - but it is being exercised in an incorrect manner.

The value of 1Cor 14 is that it tells us certain things about Tongues that give us a clue that what passed for the popular gift of tongues today is not even the gift of tongues at all -- no matter if it is done in order or not -- BECAUSE.

1. Tongues is a sign for UNBELIEVERS - according to 1Cor 14 -
2. Tongues is a sign that you are a barbarian, a pagan if all that the unbeliever hears is "jibberish".
3. Tongues is under the control of the individual both in terms of content, and purpose, and timing. It is not a case of God taking over a person personally and causing them to exhibit the gift "At the wrong time".

In 1Cor 14 there is no such thing as "If the Holy Spirit comes upon you to speak in tongues - but it is not the right time , or no one is there to interpret - tell the Holy Spirit to back off".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Don]

Awaken,
You confuse "saving faith" with the "gift of faith." All Christians have saving faith; not all Christians have the gift of faith.

All Christians can serve; not all Christians have the gift of serving.

All Christians can teach; not all have the gift of teaching.

All Christians can evangelize; some have the gift of evangelizing.

And yes, all Christians can speak in languages; but only some have the gift of languages.

You have flat-out ignored what Paul said about "to one is given; to another; to another." You have flat-out ignored what Paul asked about those with the gifts ("are all?"). You have flat-out ignored what Paul wrote to an entirely different church on the same subject (He gave some, apostles; some, prophets; etc.).

And worse, you've proven your misunderstanding of the gifts of the spirit by not examining the entirety of 1 Cor 12. Look at the verses in between the ones you quoted (verses 12-26). This section of the chapter is yet another rebuke to the church at Corinth telling them that they were wrong for everyone believing that they should each have ALL the spiritual gifts. He explains why each of them (and us) don't have ALL the gifts; because some are the foot (evangelizing) and some are the hand (serving) and some are the head (apostles); but they are all of the same body. (Note: some may disagree with the examples I've used for each of the body parts ; that's okay, and certainly something we could discuss...in another thread, please)

Read carefully what Paul wrote in those verses. The hand has its purpose; the foot has its purpose. The hand cannot try to also be a foot and say it has no need of the foot; because then its trying to serve and walk at the same time. Think about that example that Paul used; the body would have to use the hand to serve; then it would have to stop serving so that it could stand on the hand to move forward. Then it would have to stop moving forward so that it could serve some more.
As Paul says by his example, recognize that the true beauty, the true power of God is exemplified by how He has fashioned His creation to work together, so that we can serve and move forward at the same time. But it takes different parts, different members, not all having the same gift, working together for the good of the body.

Understand this, and you will gain a greater understanding of the rest of the book of 1 Corinthians, as well as a greater understanding of the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not superior! ! - Awaken

If it is not a "superior" way to pray then why seek it at all, since we all can pray without it? In addition Paul asks "do all speak in tongues" (1 Cor. 12:29) but the Greek text actually has the word "no" (Gr. me) while the English translates it in a rhetorical question that assumes the answer is "no." Just as not all are apostles! The answer is obvioius but I have learned that you don't seem to be able to discern the obvious. However, in each phrase the Greek word for "no" is found. Paul did not leave it unanswered but said "no" each time. However, your position directly contradicts Paul's "no" as your post with Don says the very opposite, thus directly contradicting Paul.


But two ways with the spirit AND with the understanding. - Awaken

We went over this verse by verse and you had no response when we went over it but now simply return and assert what you previously could not answer! Don't you remember???? Apparently not! So again here is what you were unable to answer:

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Note the "wherefore" in verse 13. It is a grammatical connection that calls the reader back to verses 6-12 to make application of verses 6-13 to what he is about to introduce in verse 13-15.

Remember, in verse 6 he lists some various forms of expression for the uses of tongues

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Hence, tongues is for SPEAKING TO YOU or COMMNICATING INFORMATION TO MEN contrary to your denial. The various content or manner in which tongues are expressed are (1) revelation; (2) knowledge; (3) prophesying; (4) doctrine and later (v. 15)he adds "pray" and "sign." In other words, tongues/dialects can be used to express EVERYTHING you can with your own native dialect and that "TO YOU" or to men. Paul directly contradicts your denial that tongues is for communicating TO YOU - TO MEN.

While verses 6-12 refers to the public use of tongues, verses 13-15 deals with the PERSONAL use of tongues as he switches from the "church" to the use of the personal SINGULAR pronouns "he" and "I" in verses 13-15. He applies the afore said definition of edify to PERSONAL USE in verses 13-15 noted by the word "wherefore" in verse 13.


13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


His definition of "edify" is spelled out clearly in verses 7-11. There must be a clear "distinction" (v. 7) in contrast to an "uncertain sound" (v. 8). That which is spoken must be "easy to understand" (v. 9) so you understand the "meaning" of the voice (v. 11) in contrast to the sound of a "barbarian" (v. 11). If the use of any gift by any person regardless of the LOCATION where they exercise it does not meet this definition of edification then it is of NO PROFIT to them or to those listening.

Your interpretation of verse 15 is based upon jerking the verse out of its developmental context. You are perverting its meaning as Paul uses it in this context. You are making it a positive example whereas Paul is making it a negative example of something he says HE WILL NOT DO.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Verse 13 - "wherefore" apply the rule of application to your PERSONAL USE of tongues which requires PERSONAL INTERPRETATION of your speaking in tongues.

Verse 14 Why you should apply the rule of application to your personal use of tongues. Because it violates the rule of application which requires UNDERSTANDING WITH YOUR MIND.

Verse 15 Paul's conclusion in regard to personal use of tongues without understanding is that it is worthless -"What is it then?" Whatever, it is, Paul will have NONE OF IT as he goes on to say what He will do and it is not as you say. He will not have it one way OR the other. He will not speak "in the spirit" OR "with my understanding." There is no "OR" in his concluson. He will only speak with BOTH or not at all.

Note the determinate expression "I will...I will....I will....I will"

Note that he does not says "I will OR I will" as you interpret this verse. Your interpretation is a direct contradiction to his conclusion on his own PERSONAL use of tongues.

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


He does not condone speaking "in the spirit" but condemns it. He does not suggest either/or but demands BOTH or "what it it then" - PROFITLESS if not both.

Not only does he reject your EITHER OR use of tongues but demands all personal use of tongues according to edificaiton requires BOTH "in the spirit" AND "with my understanding" but requires both to any who might be listening OUTSIDE the church. He does not say "occupieth the church" but "occupieth the room of the unlearned."

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

The "unlearned" is distinguished from "believers."

The issue is not the CONTENT of what is spoken in whatever dialect that is operating through your spirit. The CONTENT is good, well, fine but NONE including the speaker can understand (edified) it so ONLY GOD understands it in the church or anywhere else you exercise it. God does not need edification. Paul nowhere says that your "spirit" is edified either as that is oxymoronic as edification by Pauls definition means "understanding with the mind." Certainly "my spriit prayeth" as that is the source of origin through which the gift opererates but Paul rejects your "either or" use of tongues or two different tongues as verse 15 contains no "either or" but is a direct repudiation of your "either or" interpetation.

Furthermore, other believers have a "spirit" also. IF tongues without interpretation can edify the "spirit" of the speaker it could equally edify the "spirit" in other believers as they possess the same "spirit." However, Paul denies it can edify them without interpretation. Hence, if it cannot edify the "spirit" of the believer's listening, neither can it edify the spirit of the speaker. The "spirit" of the believers is exposed to the speaking of tongues as much as the spirit of the speaker is exposed to it.

 

[awaken]

We are not talking of "faith" per se, but the gift of faith. Not everyone has "the gift of faith." And many believe no one today has the gift of faith as it was distributed in the first century. But supposing it is for today there are very few Americans that know how to walk by faith, live by faith, etc.
Jesus said: "Go, sell all that you have, give to the poor, and come and follow me." Following that command would be living by faith. That is what many missionaries have done.
If you want a good example of that google "George Mueller." By faith he ran an orphanage in the 19th century. During his lifetime he cared for over 10,000 orphans. He also established 117 schools which offered Christian education to over 120,000 children, many of them being orphans. He lived his life by faith, having no regular income. They would gather at the table with no food often and pray. God would answer through some unbelievable means.

Why then do you have problems with tongues being manifested at the baptism....but the ministry of tongue is what they are speaking of in that verse where it says do ALL speak with tongues and interprete? That verse is speaking of ministry gifts...not all are called to ministry!

Yes. God has called some to serve; some to be in the Lord's service full time; some to be His servants, and others to support them. The Word teaches plainly that his servants are to be counted as worthy of double honor.

We are called to serve... John 13:1-17 and Philippians 2:3-16

There are very few that have this gift and can exercise it properly. Only certain ones will ever teach, and will teach to their full potential. Read chapter 12 of 1Cor. Not every one has the same gift. Teaching is only one gift among several that only some of the members of the church had.

2 Timothy 2:24-25 tells us that we apt to teach...but not all are called to in church! That is my point! Not all are called to speak in tongues in church...but we can all speak in tongues if we are baptized by the Holy Spirit! Those scriptures are speaking about in church...not everyone is called to teach or into the same ministry in a church..but all can teach, serve, speak in tongues etc.

Though all should try, some have a gift of comforting others more than most. Not everyone has the same gift.

But we are all called to comfort. We might not have the special touch some have toward others but we are to comfort, right? Again my point is that we can all speak in tongues as Acts showed that ALL in those examples spoke in tongues...but not all have the gift of tongues...the ministry gift in church with the interpretation. That is why Paul said do it between you and God and not in church. He did not say forbid it!

The best evangelists I know are missionaries.
Other evangelists are called of God to that particular vocation. It is a calling, not simply a duty. It is also a command, but some are called to do it full time.

But we are all called to win the lost...but some are called into the ministry, right? Matthew 28:18-20

No. They are not all gifts given to everyone.
Every one can do arithmetic, but not everyone has a gift in math and is a mathematician.

exactly! We can all speak in tongues..but not all have the gift to minister in church with the interpretation! I am not called to do this...but I have witnessed those that are!

No.
Evangelizing is an obligation for us all.
Evangelizing is a calling for some. As a calling it is normally accompanied with a gift.

Again! True! Just like tongues all can..but not all have the gift of tongues in ministry!

There is only one. It has now ceased. It was always in public, and never for prayer.

Well Paul disagrees with you because he calls it speaking to God/praying/blessing etc. And he was discouraging tongues in church without the interpretation. He himself did not speak in tongues in church...but he did it more than all!

It has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as water baptism has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, though the two sometimes occurred around the same time period.

So when the Spirit came upon them at Pentecost..what was that? When the Spirit came UPON them in Acts 10 the same as Pentecost, what was that? When Paul ask them if they had received the Holy Spirit SINCE they believed..laid hands on them..Spirit came UPON them, what was that? Those are examples of the Holy Spirit coming UPON them in Acts..Jesus called it the baptism in the Holy Spirit in Acts 1! So tongues has something to do with the baptism in the Holy Spirit/Spirit UPON!

That is the only gift of speaking in tongues or languages that was Biblical. And much of the time the gift was misused.

THat is speaking of th ministry gift of tongue...in church...just as I explained above! That was what Paul was correcting and not FORBIDDING!

There is no example anywhere in the Bible of anyone ever praying in tongues. It is condemned everywhere. It is not Biblical.

That is because you will not except Pauls definition of tongues...praying in the spirit...speaking to God..blessing with the spirit...THat is not condemned or forbidden! Just in church do it to serve others!

The condemnation of praying in tongues.
The condemnation of speaking without an interpreter.
The condemnation of anything that makes no sense or has no understanding. That is not a gift.
The gift was a gift of languages--a language that the speaker did not know previously but now given to him he now knows and understands. It is therefore a gift.

You can not not prove any of that in scriptures! Scriptures contradict what you said as I have shown over and over!

 

[Revmitchell]

Don't you guys get tired of repeating the same old things over and over again?

 

[Don]

Why then do you have problems with tongues being manifested at the baptism....but the ministry of tongue is what they are speaking of in that verse where it says do ALL speak with tongues and interprete? That verse is speaking of ministry gifts...not all are called to ministry!

They are not just "ministry gifts"; if that were true, then the body Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 12 would only consist of ministers. So how about the rest of us (you, me, and all the other Christians that are not called to ministry). Are we not part of the body of Christ?

Further, claiming they are ministry gifts only hurts your argument; because now I could easily say only the ministers are supposed to have the gift of speaking in languages, which fully negates your statement that ALL Christians should pray in languages.

You're setting up a division between the apostles and the "common" believer.

 

[The Biblicist]

The rule of Common sense! 1 Cor. 14 is a correction not a commendation of the use of tongues by believers in Corinth.

Verses 6-11 is spent demanding that tongues/dialects must be KNOWN and UNDERSTOOD by the speaker and audiance or or it is UNKNOWN to both and therefore USLESS and of NO PROFIT in regard to how Paul defines "edify" in verses 6-11.


6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.


What would common sense tell you concerning the verses that immediately precede verses 6-11???? Would not common sense tell you that Paul must have said something to the effect that NOBODY can understand a dialect that is foreign to them and it is incomprehensible to all but God unless you apply verses 6-11????????

1 ¶ Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Does not common sense tell you that verses 6-11 is the SOLUTION to this PROBLEM in verse 2????

However, is that how Awaken interpets verse 2????? No! Awaken does not interpret or see verse 2 as the preceding problem that verses 6-11 is the solution but Awaken sees verse 2 as the NORMAL use of a foreign dialect and indeed one proper use of foreign dialects and that is to speak to God. Therefore,according to Awaken's interpretation there is no contextual warrant or purpose for verses 6-11 to be found at this point in the context other than arbritary design. Awaken cannot see the obvious because Awaken is so committed to esctatic utterances that any common sense interpretation of scripture must be twisted any way posible to justify this ungodly and demonic experience.

 

[awaken]

Awaken,
I believe I had asked a question also. Let's assume the gift of tongues does still exist, although I do agree with DHK on this point. The Bible requires that the message come from the Lord, that it have an interpreter, and that the message be edifying to the church.

So, my questions were, assuming you have seen this process.

What did the message from the Lord sound like? What made everyone think it was genuine? Once the message was given, who interpreted it, and what did the process look like? After the interpreter was through, what was the message, and was it edifying to the church?

I agree with you that teaching is a spiritual gift and not a lot of people have it. I believe there is one in our church that does. I teach a small SS class, and the difference between me and this other person is glaring. I feel very inadequate at times, but it is better than having no teacher.

I really did not want this to get on a personal level about me or my church because on this board there are a lot of attacks! But I will answer this and ignore any attacks!

Tongues and interpretation is rare in our church. The few times that I did witness it..I can not remember the exact words but it was very encouraging and loving. Once the person that spoke in tongues interpreted and once someone else did.
My first time to witness this was powerful..because someone in the congregation came forward..repented and was delivered from a bad lifestyle. The message itself was not evangalistic so I was surprised of the move from this person. But when the Holy Spirit is in the gathering...people change! I feel like the interpretation went from interpreting to prophecy..but that is just my opinion!


Someone else might be able to answer your question that has witnessed this more often.

 

[The Biblicist]

Tongues is designed to communicate to men:

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Paul lists the various ways that foreign dialects communicates to men. In the next verses foreign dialects are designed by God to communicate as a "sign" to a special class of men who are predicted to reject what is communicated to them.

21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


Since believers do not reject God's signs or words then foreign dialects are "not for believers" but for "unbelievers." However, foreign dialects are not for just any "unbelievers" as there is one class of "unbeliever" that will not regard it as a sign from God but rather think you are crazy as they are "unlearned" in such "signs." Hence, it is designated for a certain class of unbelievers who are learned in how God communicates signs to people. I wonder who that class of unbelievers are??????? Isaiah 28:14 precisely pin points them to be ruled over from the city of Jerusalem!


Isa. 28:14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Of course it takes common sense and proper rules of interpertation to see this rather than an experience driven agenda that stops at nothing to twist scriptures to make them fit that agenda.

 

[The Biblicist]

Either/or OR both?

Tongues is designed to communicate to men:

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Paul lists the various ways that foreign dialects communicates to men. In the next verses foreign dialects are designed by God to communicate as a "sign" to a special class of men who are predicted to reject what is communicated to them.

21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


Since believers do not reject God's signs or words then foreign dialects are "not for believers" but for "unbelievers." However, foreign dialects are not for just any "unbelievers" as there is one class of "unbeliever" that will not regard it as a sign from God but rather think you are crazy as they are "unlearned" in such "signs." Hence, it is designated for a certain class of unbelievers who are learned in how God communicates signs to people. I wonder who that class of unbelievers are??????? Isaiah 28:14 precisely pin points them to be ruled over from the city of Jerusalem!


Isa. 28:14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Of course it takes common sense and proper rules of interpertation to see this rather than an experience driven agenda that stops at nothing to twist scriptures to make them fit that agenda.

Awaken you say that tongues are of two types (1) in the Spirit and (2) with understanding.

The only place both of these phrases occur is in 1 Cor. 14:15:

15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

You interpret this verse to each EITHER/OR but Paul uses the word "also" twice denying it is an EITHER/OR application but inclusive of both or neither. The word "also" demands inclusive of the other in addition to the one being described. He is repudiating your interpretation completely and totally.

 

[The Biblicist]

Awaken you say that tongues are of two types (1) in the Spirit and (2) with understanding.

The only place both of these phrases occur is in 1 Cor. 14:15:

15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

You interpret this verse to each EITHER/OR but Paul uses the word "also" twice denying it is an EITHER/OR application but inclusive of both or neither. The word "also" demands inclusive of the other in addition to the one being described. He is repudiating your interpretation completely and totally.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The KJV translates the Greek text in a rhetorical fashion that calls for no to each question. However, the Greek text actually contains the word "no" in every phrase and would read like this:

Not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all are workers of miracles. Not all have the gifts of healing. Not all speak with tongues. Not all interpet.

Notice that Awaken on every major point asserts exactly the opposite of what Paul repudiates!

1. He repudiates that all can or should speak in tongues - 1 Cor. 12:29-20 - Awaken asserts the opposite

2. He repudiates that there is an either/or tongue speaking in the spirit versus with the mind. - 1 Cor. 14:15 - Awaken asserts the opposite

3. He repudiates that tongues are designed to speak to God but rather are designed to speak to men. - 1 Cor. 14:6,21-22; Isa. 28:14 - Awaken asserts the opposite

What kind of "spirit" repudiates the Holy Spirit's inspired words? - 1Jn. 4:6; 1 Tim. 4:1

 

[awaken]

Awaken,
You confuse "saving faith" with the "gift of faith." All Christians have saving faith; not all Christians have the gift of faith.

Exactly! and not all people are called to speak in tongues in a church service...but all can speak in tongues as I shared with DHK. That was my point with the examples of the other gifts!

All Christians can serve; not all Christians have the gift of serving.

All Christians can teach; not all have the gift of teaching.

All Christians can evangelize; some have the gift of evangelizing.

And yes, all Christians can speak in languages; but only some have the gift of languages.

Again, correct! But when you say languages as in all christians can speak in a language, you are talking about the learned language. When the Holy Spirit gives you the tongue...it is not a learned language! When I said "correct"..it was because all can speak in tongues just like Acts showed! But not all are called into the ministry with tongues and the interpretation in church!

You have flat-out ignored what Paul said about "to one is given; to another; to another." You have flat-out ignored what Paul asked about those with the gifts ("are all?"). You have flat-out ignored what Paul wrote to an entirely different church on the same subject (He gave some, apostles; some, prophets; etc.).

No, I have not ignored them! I just do not interpet them the same as you do. 1 Cor. 12:27-30 is speaking of ministry gifts not spiritual gifts, he spoke of spiritual gifts earlier. This will take time to understand..because it takes a lot of studing! Notice that in that passage diversities of tongues is mentioned and it is not in italics! "God set some in the church" is another clue to understanding this without contradictions. So some are called to have a ministry in the church. I am sure this will be discussed in length as the thread progresses. I will address the rest later....

 

[DHK]

No, I have not ignored them! I just do not interpet them the same as you do. 1 Cor. 12:27-30 is speaking of ministry gifts not spiritual gifts, he spoke of spiritual gifts earlier. This will take time to understand..because it takes a lot of studing! Notice that in that passage diversities of tongues is mentioned and it is not in italics! "God set some in the church" is another clue to understanding this without contradictions. So some are called to have a ministry in the church. I am sure this will be discussed in length as the thread progresses. I will address the rest later....

Your interpretation is wrong.
Paul rebuked the average Corinthian for YOUR interpretation.
Biblicist gave you the correct interpretation. Here it is; pay attention:

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The KJV translates the Greek text in a rhetorical fashion that calls for no to each question. However, the Greek text actually contains the word "no" in every phrase and would read like this:

Not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all are workers of miracles. Not all have the gifts of healing. Not all speak with tongues. Not all interpet.

Notice that Awaken on every major point asserts exactly the opposite of what Paul repudiates!

1. He repudiates that all can or should speak in tongues - 1 Cor. 12:29-20 - Awaken asserts the opposite

 

[evangelist-7]

It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists,
and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service,
so that the body of Christ may be built up" (Ephesians 4:11-12)

We consider these to be the 5 major ministerial offices, not gifts (my apologies to Paul).
E.G. the apostles and prophets founded the churches and set them up.

In the NT churches, everyone who had a part to play in the 5-fold ministries above
were especially chosen and called by the Lord.
They all had the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and one or more of the 9 spiritual power gifts in 1 Cor 12.

This was for the silly reason that they would be equipped to do the job in a spiritual fashion.
I.E. they would be less in the flesh, and more in the Spirit.
Crazy idea, but there it is, er was.

Later generations of "Christians" got it right though ...
anyone who felt like it (for any reason) just up and took a ministerial office!

We can blame this, and multitudes of other mistakes, on Satan and willing "Christians" to follow him.

Gee, I wonder if this is why ... 2000 years later, we still haven't gone into every country with the gospel.

Jesus commanded, "Be my disciples and go into all the world." ... and 2000 years later, we're still goin'.

Hint: Bein' a real disciple meant using SWMs.
.

 

[Don]

Exactly! and not all people are called to speak in tongues in a church service...but all can speak in tongues as I shared with DHK. That was my point with the examples of the other gifts!

Again, correct! But when you say languages as in all christians can speak in a language, you are talking about the learned language. When the Holy Spirit gives you the tongue...it is not a learned language! When I said "correct"..it was because all can speak in tongues just like Acts showed! But not all are called into the ministry with tongues and the interpretation in church!

No, I have not ignored them! I just do not interpet them the same as you do. 1 Cor. 12:27-30 is speaking of ministry gifts not spiritual gifts, he spoke of spiritual gifts earlier. This will take time to understand..because it takes a lot of studing! Notice that in that passage diversities of tongues is mentioned and it is not in italics! "God set some in the church" is another clue to understanding this without contradictions. So some are called to have a ministry in the church. I am sure this will be discussed in length as the thread progresses. I will address the rest later....

Once again you're trying to make distinctions that aren't there.

You would have us believe that the first part of 1 Cor 12 talks about spiritual gifts; while the last part of 1 Cor 12 talks about ministry gifts. EXCEPT that both sections talk about the same abilities; for example, the working of miracles and divers tongues in v10; as opposed to the worker of miracles and diversities of tongues in v28-30.

So if you were correct, we'd have leadership in the body who have the gift of languages; but we'd also have lay people who have the gift of tongues...but that would be confusing, because who determines which one is the lay person and which one is the leader if they both have the same gift?

Instead, you need to seriously study what "church" is.

 

[saturneptune]

I really did not want this to get on a personal level about me or my church because on this board there are a lot of attacks! But I will answer this and ignore any attacks!

Tongues and interpretation is rare in our church. The few times that I did witness it..I can not remember the exact words but it was very encouraging and loving. Once the person that spoke in tongues interpreted and once someone else did.
My first time to witness this was powerful..because someone in the congregation came forward..repented and was delivered from a bad lifestyle. The message itself was not evangalistic so I was surprised of the move from this person. But when the Holy Spirit is in the gathering...people change! I feel like the interpretation went from interpreting to prophecy..but that is just my opinion!


Someone else might be able to answer your question that has witnessed this more often.

Thank you for your honest answer, and have no intention to attack you. I can agree or disagree without that. I am trying very hard to learn to express my opinions, debate, and give civil responses without the name calling.