Seeking truth about "tongues"...

[The Biblicist]

I will address the rest later..but you are wrong on this one. The day of Pentecost the 120 spoke in tongues with no hands laid on them. In Acts 10 no hands were laid on them when they began to speak in tongues.

1. The only ones speaking are those the Spirit gave utterance - v. 4
2. The only ones speaking were "Galileans" - v. 7
3. The only ones performing signs (tongues) and wonders and miracles are
the twelve - v. 43; Acts 3, Acts 4:33; Acts 5:12

 

[awaken]

1. The only ones speaking are those the Spirit gave utterance - v. 4

THat does not prove that only the 12 spoke in tongues! There were 120 in the upper room.

2. The only ones speaking were "Galileans" - v. 7

Your point?

3. The only ones performing signs (tongues) and wonders and miracles are the twelve - v. 43; Acts 3, Acts 4:33; Acts 5:12

You added tongues to the list! It does not include tongues in those scriptures!
It is still clear that more than JUST the apostles performed miracles through the Holy Spirit. It is also clear that more than the apostles spoke in tongues. So your theory is wrong!

 

[The Biblicist]

THat does not prove that only the 12 spoke in tongues! There were 120 in the upper room.

The statement does not demand all 120 spoke in tongues but only those that were given utterance among them.

Your point?

The twelve were Galileans, but this occurred in Judea in Jerusalem and not in Galilee. Your position would have to deny any disciples in Judea were present.

You added tongues to the list! It does not include tongues in those scriptures!

God did not invent tongues as a "sign" AFTER Pentecost but it is a "sign" gift FROM Pentecost. The apostles are the only Christians exercising "signs" not the regular church members and tongues are among the "signs."

It is still clear that more than JUST the apostles performed miracles through the Holy Spirit!

Clear from WHAT? Scripture please that shows that anyone but apostles performed miracles, signs and wonders between Acts 2 and Acts 6?

 

[awaken]

You are confusing design and function. They are designed to be a "sign" not to believers, not to gentile unbelievers (unlearned in scripture" but to "this people" or Jews. Their function is a LANGUAGE that provides UNDERSTANDABLE CONTENT.

Tongues is just one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. All the gifts were given to the church to edify the church! THe sign to the Jews were that the Holy Spirit had been poured out, just like Peter said in verse 16 and then he also said in vs. 33
"THerefore being by the the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he had shed forth this, WHICH YE NOW SEE AND HEAR" Peter is plain in what the sign was to the Jews.

You are ignoring CONTEXT! Paul is not writing the Corinthians to approve of their use of tongues but to disapprove and correct their use. It is not a gift for all Christians by personal choice but a gift selected by soverign choice to meet the NEEDS of the congregational body in its ministry (ch. 12). It is not to be used in any manner but it must be used within the confines of what defines love (ch. 12) which denies merely SELF uses; and within the confines of EDIFICATION for ALL including Self.

No, You are ignoring what Corinthians is correcting, not to deny tongues but to do it in order in the church. Edification (spiritual) of self is needed to edify others. Do you study before you teach a lesson? Do you pray before going to church? Our faith is built up when we spend time with God, that includes praying in the spirit!

What you don't understand is the contextual meaning of the rule of edification - 14:6-11. Contextually edifying is defined as MENTAL COMPREHENSION BY ALL LISTENING INCLUDING THE SPEAKER:


A. HERE IS THE RULE OF EDIFICATION SPELLED OUT

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.


The RULE OF CONTEXTUAL EDIFICATION is that the use of ANY LANGUAGE is to convey MEANINGFUL CONTENT. He sets forth the rule.

I have no problem with this! When tongues are in the assembly it needs to edify the church, period! Without the interpretation it is of no use in a church setting.

 

[awaken]

Now he applies this rule to the gift of tongues in verses 13-19

B. THE APPLICATION OF THE RULE OF EDIFICATION = MEANINGFUL CONTENT - vv. 13-19

1. The Rule in regard to PERSONAL use of Tongues - vv. 13-15

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Do you know the meaning of "wherefore" in verse 13???? Apparently not! He states the rule, spells it out in no uncertain terms and then directly applies it first to the PERSONAL use of tongues - vv. 13-15.

According to the RULE OF EDICATION the person should not speak in tongues without interpretation! Why? Because it violates the rule of edification as the mind is unfruitful and the rule of edification demands the mind must be fruitful or it is WORTHLESS. - v. 13

What you miss is that the spirit is edified! But I agree with Paul, that tongues should be interpreted in a congregation.

When tongues is used in the church instead of where it is designed (the jews - vv. 20-21) then it becomes "unknown" because it is the designated listeners who understand it (Acts 2:6-11) or "this people" (1 Cor. 14:21). They need no interpreter. However, when it is used out of this designed context for PERSONAL or CHURCH use there is need for an interpreter. Why because YOU nor the CHURCH (believers) is the designed objects for this "sign" gift. Hence, YOU and the CHURCH exercising this gift cannot understand what is being said, any more if YOU or the CHURCH all started speaking chinese. The ability to speak chinese is not derived from YOUR FLESH but THROUGH YOUR SPIRIT. So your spirit has been gifted by God to exercise this spiritual sign gift and its doing it as designed and therefore doing it well as it can be done. He is not approving of the mere excercise of speaking but condemning the mere exercise of speaking IF NNE is discerning the content. It is pure gibberish nonsense that serves no purpose at all.

Yes, it does serve a purpose! God gave the gift to the believers. It is speaking to God in vs. 2! THat is prayer! You limit tongues to evangalizing! Paul does not! He spoke in tongues more than all BUT in the church in order to teach he did not! Tongues are not for teaching, that is not the purpose! Tongues was a sign that the Holy Spirit had been poured out as I showed above!

Verse 14 simply states the FACTS without interpertation. verse 14 is not an approval.

Verse 15 states what Paul will do. He will not speak in tongues as defined in verse 14. He will not speak in tongues if his mind is unfruitful! Why? Because it violates the rule of edification - vv. 6-11.

He says BOTH! IF we are to speak in church then speak with the understanding so all could be edified.

2. The Rule of Edification in regard to use in Church - vv. 16-27

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


Verse 16 introduces OTHERS into the listening audiance whereas verses 13-15 were dealing only with SELF involvement. Not only will Paul repudiate the use of tongues as a SELF practice without understanding, but he repudiates the PUBLIC practice without fruitful understanding! Why becuase both practices violate the rules of "love" and violate "edification."

He does not say tongues was limited to the congregation. BUT when in Public we are not to speak in tongues without the interpretation. Notice too that Paul says YOU GIVE THANKS WELL! The prayer was good! It was just not edifying to the church! I agree with Paul, tongues in service should not be done without the interpretation.

Paul speaks in tongues more than all of them! Not in the sense of VOLUME as it only takes TWO persons to speak in tongues more than ONE. But in the sense of the RULES (love, edification) and the DESIGN (vv. 20-22) that governs the proper use of tongues.

Paul is clear that he speaks in tongues more than all of them. "Yet in the church" shows that he spoke in tongues outside the church.

Yes, BAD and GOOD! This is not an approval but a condemnation IN CONTEXT. When you just BABBLE with yourself it is BAD because you violate the rule of edification for langauges - vv. 6-11. Therefore Paul determines he will not follow this BAD personal practice:

15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Note the introductory question - "what is it then"? He has just previously set forth the perimeter's in verses 6-11 to answer that question! What is it then? It is a use of NON-EDIFICATION contrary to the purpose of languages in general - vv. 6-11. What is it then? It is WRONG as it violates the base purpose of any langauge - to communicate meaningful understandable content. PAUL WON'T DO IT! What Paul will not do is what YOU and the CORINTHIANS share in common with each other.

He is clear that he does both, Pray in the spirit AND pray with understanding. If he prays in the spirit then he will pray with the understanding so that the othes will be edified or be able to say "AMEN" to his prayer. He tells them plain that their giving of thanks (prayer) is good, but the other is not edified. The correction is praying in the spirit without the interpretation in church!

You are jerking this text from its context. The Context is DISAPPROVAL of this practice NOT APPROVAL as verse 15 immediately clarifies.

THe only disaproval is that praying in the spirit without the interpretation is not edifying! He made it clear that the mind does not understand what we are saying. That is why we need to pray for the interpretation.

He qualifies the designed "unbelievers" not to be the "unlearned"! Those who do not read and understand Isaiah 26:12-15 will be in the dark. He just told you what kind of unbeliever it is a "sign" for - vv. 21 why don't you believe him? It is for "THIS PEOPLE" in Jerusalem or the Jews. Jews are LEARNED in the Old Testament and would recognize it as a "sign" whereas Paul tells the Corinthians that the Gentiles regard it as "FOOLISHNESS" (1 Cor. 1:19) and think they were CRAZY!

You limit tongues where Paul does not! It is not JUST a sign to the Jews! It says unbelievers! It is a sign to unbelievers.
1 Cor. 1 does not say it is for a sign to the Jews. It says "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish(unsaved) foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." It goes on to say the the Jews REQUIRE a sign, the Greeks seed after wisdom.

 

[awaken]

If it is true manifestation it does not need to be put in order. God can manifest Himself in perfection and man cannot mess that up.

Paul did not say it was not a true manifestation! The people were just using their gifts wrong in the assembly.

 

[awaken]

The statement does not demand all 120 spoke in tongues but only those that were given utterance among them.

It also does not say they did not! Why wouldn't they? Others than the apostles spoke in tongue!

The twelve were Galileans, but this occurred in Judea in Jerusalem and not in Galilee. Your position would have to deny any disciples in Judea were present.

Again, your point?

God did not invent tongues as a "sign" AFTER Pentecost but it is a "sign" gift FROM Pentecost. The apostles are the only Christians exercising "signs" not the regular church members and tongues are among the "signs."

Again it is just an assumption that is disproved by other scriptures showing other people than the apostles performed miracles and spoke in tongues.

Clear from WHAT? Scripture please that shows that anyone but apostles performed miracles, signs and wonders between Acts 2 and Acts 6?

What does it matter if it is between those chapters? They stil performed miracles and manifested the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Spirit!

 

[The Biblicist]

What you miss is that the spirit is edified! But I agree with Paul, that tongues should be interpreted in a congregation.

It does not say the spirit is edified. He simply states the function is from the spirit and it is performing correctly.

Edification in this context has been spelled out clearly - vv. 6-
10 and it does not refer to our "spirit" but to our "mind."

 

[The Biblicist]

It also does not say they did not! Why wouldn't they? Others than the apostles spoke in tongue!

So your argument fails.

Again, your point?

My point is that all the rest of the contextual indicators do not support your position.

Again it is just an assumption that is disproved by other scriptures showing other people than the apostles performed miracles and spoke in tongues.

Again, what scriptures indicate anyone but apostles were performing miracles signs and wonders between Acts 2 and Acts 6????? You cannot affirm that on silence!

 

[Don]

Mostly a book of correction and emphasis on life style for the local church. But the correction is not denying the manifestation, just putting them all in order.

"Mostly" a book of correction?

Here's an exercise for you: Re-read the book of 1 Corinthians, pretending to be a member of that church; knowing that, as a member, you've been participating in the things Paul talks about throughout the whole letter to your church.

Because, when you look at verses like 1 Cor 14:15 and say that it means to you that Paul prays two ways, you overlook that Paul just got through telling people that they're praying wrong. You also overlook basic grammar rules in just about ALL languages, because the conjunction "and" means to include. If the verse said "or," then you could have two different things; but when you are inclusive, you have both things, not just one. In other words, Paul isn't saying he prays two different ways; he's saying he prays with the Spirit and with the understanding.

In other words, he's saying that if you pray without the understanding, then you're praying wrong.

 

[The Biblicist]

It does not say the spirit is edified. He simply states the function is from the spirit and it is performing correctly.

Edification in this context has been spelled out clearly - vv. 6-
10 and it does not refer to our "spirit" but to our "mind."

1 Cor. 14:5,13 demand that interpretation is necessary for edification. Other's also have a "spirit" and they are not edified by hearing tongues any more than the person speaking is edified by hearing tongues.

The context demands that "edification" is equal to UNDERSTANDING THE MEANING:

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?


9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Paul has a "spirit" and yet he receives nothing from hearing tongues without an interpreter.

You are suggesting that the speaker has a unique "spirit" that can be edified by the same tongues but the "spirit" in all the rest of the listeners cannot be edified listening to the same babble.

 

[awaken]

It does not say the spirit is edified. He simply states the function is from the spirit and it is performing correctly.

Edification in this context has been spelled out clearly - vv. 6-
10 and it does not refer to our "spirit" but to our "mind."

How do you pray in the spirit and your spirit not be built up?

 

[The Biblicist]

How do you pray in the spirit and your spirit not be built up?

You are confusing the aspect of human nature from whence the spiritual gift originates with edification. He is simply stating what aspect in man is performing the gift, not whether it is edifying to that aspect or any other aspect of man. Edification has to do with only one aspect of man - his mind, understanding. The immediately clearly spelled out meaning of edification makes this clear.

 

[awaken]

So your argument fails.

No! Yours fails because others spoke in tongues other than the apostles. So there is no reason why they would not have spoken in tongues on the Day of Pentecost.

My point is that all the rest of the contextual indicators do not support your position.

Scriptures again prove your assumption wrong! All through scriptures it shows that more than the apostles spoke in tongues, so why do you say the 120 did not? THey were ALL in the upper room when the Holy Spirit came and they were ALL filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. So we will just have to disagree on this one!

Again, what scriptures indicate anyone but apostles were performing miracles signs and wonders between Acts 2 and Acts 6????? You cannot affirm that on silence!

It does not matter if it was done in Acts 2- Acts 6 or not! THey still did! Why do you limit it to just those chapters? What does that prove?

 

[awaken]

"Mostly" a book of correction?

Here's an exercise for you: Re-read the book of 1 Corinthians, pretending to be a member of that church; knowing that, as a member, you've been participating in the things Paul talks about throughout the whole letter to your church.

Because, when you look at verses like 1 Cor 14:15 and say that it means to you that Paul prays two ways, you overlook that Paul just got through telling people that they're praying wrong. You also overlook basic grammar rules in just about ALL languages, because the conjunction "and" means to include. If the verse said "or," then you could have two different things; but when you are inclusive, you have both things, not just one. In other words, Paul isn't saying he prays two different ways; he's saying he prays with the Spirit and with the understanding.

In other words, he's saying that if you pray without the understanding, then you're praying wrong.

It is wrong in the church because no one is edified! THe correction was tongues without the interpretation throughout chapter 14. He does not forbid it! He does not deny that he spoke in tongues other than church. HE also makes it plain that speaking in tongues is speaking to God/ praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit/giving thanks.

 

[awaken]

1 Cor. 14:5,13 demand that interpretation is necessary for edification. Other's also have a "spirit" and they are not edified by hearing tongues any more than the person speaking is edified by hearing tongues.

Praying in the Holy Ghost is edifying! IN the church is the correction!

The context demands that "edification" is equal to UNDERSTANDING THE MEANING:

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?


9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Paul has a "spirit" and yet he receives nothing from hearing tongues without an interpreter.

I agree with Paul, When I hear someone speak in tongues and do not know the meaning..it is not edifying! Speaking in tongues edifies self vs. 4. It is speaking to God!

You are suggesting that the speaker has a unique "spirit" that can be edified by the same tongues but the "spirit" in all the rest of the listeners cannot be edified listening to the same babble.

Well if it is babble no one can benefit from it...but we are speaking of tongues, a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
How do you edify your self praying in the Holy Ghost? Because the Bible says you can!

 

[Revmitchell]

Paul did not say it was not a true manifestation! The people were just using their gifts wrong in the assembly.

True manifestations of God cannot be used "wrongly". When God is in direct control it will go as He pleases. It cannot be user wrong it cannot be abused we cannot over power God.

 

[awaken]

You are confusing the aspect of human nature from whence the spiritual gift originates with edification. He is simply stating what aspect in man is performing the gift, not whether it is edifying to that aspect or any other aspect of man. Edification has to do with only one aspect of man - his mind, understanding. The immediately clearly spelled out meaning of edification makes this clear.

Paul says in vs. that tongues edifies self! In church it edifies all when the interpretation is given (vs. 5).
So you are never build up in your spirit?

 

[awaken]

True manifestations of God cannot be used "wrongly". When God is in direct control it will go as He pleases. It cannot be user wrong it cannot be abused we cannot over power God.

Paul did not say what they were saying (the utterance from the Holy Spirit) was wrong! As a matter of fact he tells them that they givest thanks well. It is just not edifying to the church!

 

[Revmitchell]

Paul did not say what they were saying (the utterance from the Holy Spirit) was wrong! As a matter of fact he tells them that they givest thanks well. It is just not edifying to the church!

So what you are telling me is that you believe this was a manifestation of Spirit, that God showed up in a miraculous way, endued them with the momentary ability to speak in tongues that they could not otherwise speak but that God got it wrong and was not able to edify the church.

So God showed up and failed to do what He came to do.

See you cannot have it both ways. You cannot have God how up and manifest His Spirit and then those He works through gets it wrong and needs to be corrected. You cannot have both of those at the same time. Placing the blame on the people does not make it alright because in the end you are still saying God failed.