Seeking truth about "tongues"...

[The Biblicist]

You have to add words to come to that conclusion! He did not say he does it the right way more than all of them! He said he speaks in tongues but in church he would rather TEACH in his understanding.

He is correcting them and presenting himself and scripture as examples to follow - vv. 15, 19-22. So I do not have to add anything. In contrast you are assuming he practiced by their wrong example. Notice the person first person pronoun "I" - vv. 15, 19

IT shows the difference/contrast in tongues not in his understanding and words with his understanding. It is clear here that tongues in not in his understanding or he would have said in vs. 19 that he wanted to speak in their understanding.

He is not talking about another kind of tongues - there is no other kind! He is clearly demanding that UNDERSTANDING is necessary concerning anything that originates in the "spirit." Mindless spirituality is not in Paul's vocabulary but characterizes demon activity.

THe purpose of tongues is to magnify God! To do this in church we must have the interpretation for all to be edified!

To do this in your own person you must have UNDERSTANDING or else you don't know who you are glorifying, God or Satan.

Acts 2 and 10 tell us that they were magnifying God.

They understood the content or else they could not say it was "God" being glorified.


"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)
Paul also says that praising God with your spirit is tongues...but in the church we must have an interpretation so all can be edified. [/QUOTE]

You are again jerking verse 16 completely out it context. Again he is making a distinction between CONTENT and PRACTICE and you are not.

If tongues were for another reason then Paul would have used that example. But all through chapter 14 he speaks of praying in the spirit/speaketh in tongues/blessing with the spirit/ speaking to God. That is prayer/praise!

He certainly did. He told his readers to grow up (v. 20) and act spiritually and that comes with UNDERSTANDING God's design for tongues - v. 21

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes I do know what manifestation of the Holy Spirit is! He can be manifesed through love, joy, peace etc. too! But just because the love of God is in us does not mean we always let it manifest!

You just proved you have no idea what it is.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, Awaken's not the only one. I personally know of an Independent Fundamental Baptist pastor who will swear to this day that he started witnessing to a man in English; and the man will swear to this day that the pastor was speaking in Spanish. The man responded the same as in your story.

As pointed out previously (by Lugnut, I think), I believe that if this story is true, it's a true representation of what happened in Acts 2.
.

The Baptist pastor story is a case of what is called "interpretation of various kinds of tongues".

But Acts 2 is an example of actually speaking in tongues - because the Jews were complaining that they were hearing gibberish and so they supposed the speakers were drunk. They heard languages they did not understand but that the people from other nations did understand.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

IT shows the difference/contrast in tongues not in his understanding and words with his understanding. It is clear here that tongues in not in his understanding or he would have said in vs. 19 that he wanted to speak in their understanding.

THe purpose of tongues is to magnify God! To do this in church we must have the interpretation for all to be edified!

If someone stands up and speaks gibberish in church -- and then someone else says "Well that is not any language known to man - but I have been given instruction as to what was said" --- the unbeliever would walk away claiming this was the biggest circus imaginable.

But if the unbeliever were from some obscure tribe in South America and then they heard someone in a local church in Georgia suddenly start speaking their native tongue flawlessly - preaching the Gospel - it would be an undeniable "sign" to the unbeliever.

Acts 2 is exactly that - and some of nations and therefore languages are listed there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[awaken]

If someone stands up and speaks gibberish in church -- and then someone else says "Well that is not any language known to man - but I have been given instruction as to what was said" --- the unbeliever would walk away claiming this was the biggest circus imaginable.

But if the unbeliever were from some obscure tribe in South America and then they heard someone in a local church in Georgia suddenly start speaking their native tongue flawlessly - preaching the Gospel - it would be an undeniable "sign" to the unbeliever.

Acts 2 is exactly that - and some of nations and therefore languages are listed there.

in Christ,

Bob

Nowhere in scriptures does it say tongues is used for preaching...NOWHERE!!

 

[awaken]

You just proved you have no idea what it is.

Why don't you enlighten us???

 

[awaken]

He certainly did. He told his readers to grow up (v. 20) and act spiritually and that comes with UNDERSTANDING God's design for tongues - v. 21

Maybe you would like to explain to us exactly what vs. 21 means??

 

[awaken]

Paul's final word on tongues, and in fact the final word on tongues in the entire New Testament, is that speaking in tongues must not be forbidden. Christians today should be praying in tongues just as they did in the first century (following Paul's guidelines), because when it's done properly then it results in the edification of the speaker and of the church.

 

[DHK]

Paul's final word on tongues, and in fact the final word on tongues in the entire New Testament, is that speaking in tongues must not be forbidden. Christians today should be praying in tongues just as they did in the first century (following Paul's guidelines), because when it's done properly then it results in the edification of the speaker and of the church.

Paul's final word on tongues:
Forbid not to speak in tongues--in the first century as we take the verse in its context, for it is obvious the gift has ceased.
It was given as a sign to the Jew, especially the unbelieving Jew.
This was partially,and very obviously, fulfilled at Pentecost. It continued to be fulfilled during the rest of the first century, or up until the Jews rejected the message of the apostles and were finally destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D. By that time, both Biblically and historically tongues had ceased.

By that time Paul was dead; Peter was dead; James had died; Thomas was martyred in 72 A.D., and almost all the other apostles had died--all but John.
Tongues were a sign for the apostles; a sign for the unbelieving Jew.

Tongues were never to be used as a prayer language!!
This is an abuse of the gift. It is wrong and condemned in the Bible.

 

[Don]

Yeah, It's floating around Facebook to!:tongue3:

Now that's funny ... because the guy I heard it from? Our conversation took place back in 2002.

 

[Don]

Paul's final word on tongues, and in fact the final word on tongues in the entire New Testament, is that speaking in tongues must not be forbidden. Christians today should be praying in tongues just as they did in the first century (following Paul's guidelines), because when it's done properly then it results in the edification of the speaker and of the church.

Scripture, please. We should not seek using the gifts for the edification of ourselves; that's selfish and unloving...and as Paul stated, if we don't know what's being said, unprofitable.

 

[The Biblicist]

Maybe you would like to explain to us exactly what vs. 21 means??

21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

In context he has told them they need to have a mature understanding of of tongues (v. 20). The the mature understanding comes from scripture. So he gives them God's word (no New Testament written) from Isaiah 28:11-12 that provides the Biblical purpose for the gift of tongues.

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

In context this is a prediction that God will give a special sign to Israel, especially to those who rule over this people - "another tongue." It is designed to be spoken "to this people." The purpose of the sign is to reveal to them the promised "rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing." Jesus is the promised "rest" - "Come unto me all ye who are burdened and heavey laden and I will give you rest."

He also predicts they will reject what the sign signifies - "yet they would not hear" and what the consequences of rejecting it will be (Isa. 28:



15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Of course verse 16 is a direct reference to Jesus Christ as the promised "rest" and foundation stone they rejected.

In the Olivet discourse Luke cites the words "trodden down" by the gentiles which has reference to A.D. 70 destruction by Titus and the Roman Armies.


22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Verse 22 and the conclusion that tongues are for a sign to them 'that believe not" has immediate reference to the last phrase of verse 21 "ye they will not hear" and their rejection of the foundation stone in Isaiah 28:16 or the promised rest.

From this context we draw the following necessary conclusions:

1. The Purpose of tongues is for the nation of Israel - Jews
2. It is a "sign" to them of the promised Messiah has come
3. It is predicted they will reject the Messiah
4. Therefore the Biblical purpose for tongues is for these kind of unbelievers - the learned kind - not the unlearned gentile kind.
5. Hence, any other use of tongues comes under these stringent restrictions regardless of public church or personal use as neither is the Biblical purpose for tongues.
6. The Biblical purpose ceases with the destruction upon Jerusalem and thus "tongues cease of themselves" - 1 Cor. 13:8 prior to knowledge or prophesying ceasing.
7. Tongues are permitted in the church and personal use as long as it is used for EDIFICATION at all times (meaning you understand what is being said) and the additional restrictions for church use.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in another language edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the assembly.
5 Now I desire to have you all speak with other languages, but rather that you would prophesy. For he is greater who prophesies than he who speaks with other languages, unless he interprets, that the assembly may be built up. (WEB)

That is what the word means (languages), as many translations translate it that way. The phrase "speaking in tongues" has only caused confusion.

You surely got that right...and division, and strife, as well.

 

[The Biblicist]

21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

In context he has told them they need to have a mature understanding of of tongues (v. 20). The the mature understanding comes from scripture. So he gives them God's word (no New Testament written) from Isaiah 28:11-12 that provides the Biblical purpose for the gift of tongues.

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

In context this is a prediction that God will give a special sign to Israel, especially to those who rule over this people - "another tongue." It is designed to be spoken "to this people." The purpose of the sign is to reveal to them the promised "rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing." Jesus is the promised "rest" - "Come unto me all ye who are burdened and heavey laden and I will give you rest."

He also predicts they will reject what the sign signifies - "yet they would not hear" and what the consequences of rejecting it will be (Isa. 28:



15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Of course verse 16 is a direct reference to Jesus Christ as the promised "rest" and foundation stone they rejected.

In the Olivet discourse Luke cites the words "trodden down" by the gentiles which has reference to A.D. 70 destruction by Titus and the Roman Armies.


22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Verse 22 and the conclusion that tongues are for a sign to them 'that believe not" has immediate reference to the last phrase of verse 21 "ye they will not hear" and their rejection of the foundation stone in Isaiah 28:16 or the promised rest.

From this context we draw the following necessary conclusions:

1. The Purpose of tongues is for the nation of Israel - Jews
2. It is a "sign" to them of the promised Messiah has come
3. It is predicted they will reject the Messiah
4. Therefore the Biblical purpose for tongues is for these kind of unbelievers - the learned kind - not the unlearned gentile kind.
5. Hence, any other use of tongues comes under these stringent restrictions regardless of public church or personal use as neither is the Biblical purpose for tongues.
6. The Biblical purpose ceases with the destruction upon Jerusalem and thus "tongues cease of themselves" - 1 Cor. 13:8 prior to knowledge or prophesying ceasing.
7. Tongues are permitted in the church and personal use as long as it is used for EDIFICATION at all times (meaning you understand what is being said) and the additional restrictions for church use.

Look at the fruits of the "spirit" behind the practice of so-called tongue speaking [ecstatic utterances] today! The Biblical tongue speaking was a "sign" to confirm the truth of the arrival of Christ to the nation of Israel, however, the current "tongue speaking" is also a "sign," a "LYING sign," as it confirms every false doctrine imaginable under the sun as truth. It's advocates are in total confusion and division with each other. It is simply choas under the guise of operating "in the Spirit." Today's practice is all about SELF. SELF-edification, SELF-prayer life and completely void of the Biblical principles of love and edification of others.

 

[awaken]

Paul's final word on tongues:
Forbid not to speak in tongues--in the first century as we take the verse in its context, for it is obvious the gift has ceased.
It was given as a sign to the Jew, especially the unbelieving Jew.
This was partially,and very obviously, fulfilled at Pentecost. It continued to be fulfilled during the rest of the first century, or up until the Jews rejected the message of the apostles and were finally destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D. By that time, both Biblically and historically tongues had ceased.

By that time Paul was dead; Peter was dead; James had died; Thomas was martyred in 72 A.D., and almost all the other apostles had died--all but John.
Tongues were a sign for the apostles; a sign for the unbelieving Jew.

Tongues were never to be used as a prayer language!!
This is an abuse of the gift. It is wrong and condemned in the Bible.

\
To believe as you do you have to ignore vs. 2-speaking to God/prayer, vs. 4 speaking in tongues edifieth himself, vs. 14- tongues is my spirit praying, vs. 16-blessing with the spirit so others can say "amen", vs. 28- if no interpretation keep it between you and God and keep silent in the church. ALL of those verse show that tongues is prayer/speaking to God. Paul did not say that tongues WAS NOT any of the above. His correction was when they prayed in the spirit in church without the interpretation.

 

[awaken]

Scripture, please. We should not seek using the gifts for the edification of ourselves; that's selfish and unloving...and as Paul stated, if we don't know what's being said, unprofitable.

You guys go on and on about it is selfish to edify self. Edification is just building yourself up in faith. There is nothing wrong in that! We read the Bible and our faith is build up...we hear a sermon and our faith is build up etc.
Jude tells us to build OURSELVES up in our most Holy faith!

The verse that tells us that tongues edifies self is vs. 4! He is not condemning edifying ourselves in private, just in the church do not be selfish and share with others with the interpretation.

 

[awaken]

21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

In context he has told them they need to have a mature understanding of of tongues (v. 20). The the mature understanding comes from scripture. So he gives them God's word (no New Testament written) from Isaiah 28:11-12 that provides the Biblical purpose for the gift of tongues.

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

In context this is a prediction that God will give a special sign to Israel, especially to those who rule over this people - "another tongue." It is designed to be spoken "to this people." The purpose of the sign is to reveal to them the promised "rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing." Jesus is the promised "rest" - "Come unto me all ye who are burdened and heavey laden and I will give you rest."

He also predicts they will reject what the sign signifies - "yet they would not hear" and what the consequences of rejecting it will be (Isa. 28:

THe sign was that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2 explains that! It was to the Jew first and then the Gentiles...but it was not just for the Jews! If you will look in Acts the SIGN that they were baptized with the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues (I do not believe tongues is the only mainfestation evident at this time, but scriptures show that it is). I do not believe the spirit within and the Spirit upon is the same work. Sometimes it happens all at once but scriptures show that it also happened seperate. I will address the rest later.

 

[awaken]

Look at the fruits of the "spirit" behind the practice of so-called tongue speaking [ecstatic utterances] today! The Biblical tongue speaking was a "sign" to confirm the truth of the arrival of Christ to the nation of Israel, however, the current "tongue speaking" is also a "sign," a "LYING sign," as it confirms every false doctrine imaginable under the sun as truth. It's advocates are in total confusion and division with each other. It is simply choas under the guise of operating "in the Spirit." Today's practice is all about SELF. SELF-edification, SELF-prayer life and completely void of the Biblical principles of love and edification of others.

Christ had already arrived and resurrected. The sign was the coming of the Holy Spirit. If it was a sign of Christ coming then it would have appeared when he arrived.

As I said earier, building yourself up in faith is not a bad thing as most of you are pointing out! Jude 20 tells us to build ourselves up in faith!

So are you saying those that do not speak in tongues have better fruit?

 

[The Biblicist]

THe sign was that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2 explains that!

What you are doing here is simply a dishonest application of Scripture. Of course all miracles signs and wonders indicate Pentecost had come but that does not contradict the Biblical based specific sign of "tongues" was NOT GIVEN FOR BELIEVERS or "unlearned" unbelievers but to the Jews as a nation as a "sign" their Messiah had come and sure future destruction of Jerusalem for rejecting their Messiah.

You are not merely pitting Luke against Paul but you are completely repudiating Paul's biblical based explanation why tongues are not for BELIEVERS or for "unlearned" unbelievers but for "this people" the Jews who are LEARNED in the scriptures and would recognize this was a specific predicted "sign" that their Messiah had arrived and rejection would end in destruction of Israel - Isa. 28:12-15.

It was to the Jew first and then the Gentiles...but it was not just for the Jews!

I never said anything about any "it"! I said "Paul" went to the jews first and then to the Gentiles." Tongues are specifically said NOT FOR the "unlearned" Gentiles and you are directly contradicting Paul in saying it was.

If you will look in Acts the SIGN that they were baptized with the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues (I do not believe tongues is the only mainfestation evident at this time, but scriptures show that it is). I do not believe the spirit within and the Spirit upon is the same work. Sometimes it happens all at once but scriptures show that it also happened seperate. I will address the rest later.

This is pure imagination at work. Nowhere does the Scripture ever say that "tongues" are the "sign" of the baptism in the Spirit - NOWHERE!

This is what people who defend tongues for today are forced to do - they must pit scripture against scripture, repudiate plain explicit scriptures that deny tongues are for believers or for the "unlearned" unbeliever (gentile). They have to abuse the word of God to defend their unbiblical and ungodly experiences. No amount of evidence will change this type of mind.

1. he says it is for Gentiles when Paul explicitly says it is not
2. He says it is a sign of Pentecost and the baptism in the Spirit and Paul says it is a sign to Israel
3. He says it does not have to accompany MENTAL COMPREHENSION while Paul says it must or it is of no profit to the church AND/OR the individual -

 

[awaken]

21 ¶ 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

I find it interesting that through tongues he will SPEAK to this people.