Seeking truth about "tongues"...

[awaken]

So your point is - speaking in languages wasn't evangelizing? For showing people the power of God?

Yes! It was a sign pointing to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. But they did not preach to the people in tongues. Peter preached and 3000 souls were saved!

NO. I said using the gifts for self is bad.

To read the Bible to grow yourself...is that bad? NO! You are to grow in faith...so you can be of benefit to others!

NO. You refuse to read 1 Cor 14:4 in context. Paul is not saying "speaking in languages is edifying to self"; he's saying, "speaking in languages is edifying only to yourself." What does he say next? "Greater is he...that the church may receive edifying."

It is only edifying to self in the church without the interpretation! But he still says it edifies self! And as I pointed out in Jude...edifying yourself is not bad! But in the church seek to edify all!

PLEASE re-read the verses I posted about this subject; 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 14, Eph 4. The spiritual gifts are NOT for our own personal use; they are for the building up of the body.

And before we build up the body...we ourselves have to build up!

EXCEPT - as I asked you to prove some time back in a previous thread, and you were unable - there are NO scriptural examples of anyone speaking or praying in languages by themselves. It was ALWAYS a public event, witnessed by others. If I'm wrong, please provide the scripture that proves it.

I do not see a scripture in private! But Paul make it clear in chapter 14 that it is for speaking to God/praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit! Paul does not speak in tongues in church but he said he spoke more than all! So where do you suppose he spoke in tongues?

 

[awaken]

Good! Then treat it as different. They did not pray. They spoke! They spoke of the wonderful works of God. That is what it says, nothing more.

AND....Paul says that when we speak in tongues we are speaking to God!

I am saying what the Scriptures say! Stick to the Word of God.
The Scriptures say: They spoke the wonderful works of God. This is what they were proclaiming. God doesn't have to know what works he did. They were telling the people of the works that Christ did.

Then why in the verses I shared were they speaking to God and telling Him of his wonderful works..praising him for his wonderful works???

And this has to do with Russian tea, how? A total non sequitor.

What did Peter say in verse 33?
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--He was speaking of Christ. They, the apostles were witnesses of Christ and his resurrection. Him has God exalted. This is the conclusion of Peter's message. What is your point here?
He is speaking to the very ones that had crucified Christ.
They had both seen and heard Christ. Now they saw, not the Holy Spirit, but just some of the supernatural phenomena--a sound of a mighty rushing wind, cloven tongues of fire, and speaking in other languages. That is what they say. The speaking in languages was a sign to unbelieving Jews (all of them), that if they did not take heed to what was being said judgment would come.
Out of approximately 100,000 present only 3,000 took heed. The rest rejected what Peter said.

My point is that tongues was the sign to them that the Holy Ghost was sent by Jesus!

I can declare unto you what God has done; all of his mighty works. But that won't save you. You need to hear the gospel, and the gospel explained. That is what Peter preached--Christ and Christ crucified.

Exactly! So the disciples were declaring the wonderful works of God in praise to God...Peter did the preaching!

The Holy Spirit is spirit. One cannot see spirit. They did not witness the Spirit. These were unsaved and wicked Jews who had just put Christ to death. They were some of the most wicked people in the history of the world. Their hearts were truly depraved. Here stood the Pharisees and Sadducees, the elite members of the Sanhedrin--the very ones that had ordered the crucifixion of Christ. They didn't witness the outpouring of the Spirit. They witnessed some supernatural phenomena which could be seen. The Holy Spirit came and indwelt those that believed.

Again you are right, they can not see the Spirit! But they did see Him being manifested through the disiples in tongues! 1 cor. 12 tells us that the gifts are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! So what they SAW was tongues!

If all you have is the promise of the Holy Spirit then you are not saved.
You must have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. That is what happened on that day. Those that believed were indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not come on all flesh. That is a future event, yet to take place.

I have gone over this with you in previous threads! THe Holy Spirit was poured out for all that believe...Acts 2:38-39! I understand the indwelling Holy Spirit! That is our new birth! But the baptism is for power!

 

[awaken]

THe presense of the Lord is through the Holy Spirit now on earth, is this correct?
Times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, correct? (Acts 3:19)

What is the refreshing? (Isaiah 28) THIS is the rest, THIS is the time of refreshing? ...."With stammering lips and another tongue will I speak to this people."

 

[Don]

Yes! It was a sign pointing to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. But they did not preach to the people in tongues. Peter preached and 3000 souls were saved!

They spoke of the wonderful works of God; is that not preaching? You've never heard a preacher talk about the miracles of God?

To read the Bible to grow yourself...is that bad? NO! You are to grow in faith...so you can be of benefit to others!

Which spiritual gift is reading the Bible?

It is only edifying to self in the church without the interpretation! But he still says it edifies self! And as I pointed out in Jude...edifying yourself is not bad! But in the church seek to edify all!

Jude says pray in the Holy Spirit; does this mean whenever you pray, you must pray in another language?

And before we build up the body...we ourselves have to build up!

Do you do that through the gifts of the Spirit? Or do we put on the whole armor of God? Do we read the Scripture in another language, or do we read it with understanding?

I do not see a scripture in private! But Paul make it clear in chapter 14 that it is for speaking to God/praying in the spirit/ blessing with the spirit! Paul does not speak in tongues in church but he said he spoke more than all! So where do you suppose he spoke in tongues?

I suppose he spoke in other languages just like it says in Acts: In public events, where people witnessed the power of God.

In Acts 2, where were they? In church, or in front of witnesses? In Acts 8 where were they? In church, or in front of witnesses? In Acts 10, where were they? In church, or in front of witnesses? In Acts 19, where were they? In church, or in front of witnesses?

You can't find a scripture that shows any of the gifts being used privately. If we're supposed to use them for the edifying of ourselves, then why don't we find scriptural examples of this?

 

[awaken]

They spoke of the wonderful works of God; is that not preaching? You've never heard a preacher talk about the miracles of God?

Paul is plain in 1 Cor. 14 of what tongues is! IT is speaking to God!

Which spiritual gift is reading the Bible?

I did not say reading the Bible was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! I used that as an example that it is ok to build yourself up in faith! Whether it is reading or praying!

Jude says pray in the Holy Spirit; does this mean whenever you pray, you must pray in another language?

I never said that! I quoted Jude to show that it is ok to build yourself up praying in the Holy Spirit! There is nothing wrong with building yourself up in faith! By doing that you will benefit the church!

Do you do that through the gifts of the Spirit? Or do we put on the whole armor of God? Do we read the Scripture in another language, or do we read it with understanding?

I believe we build ourselves up in faith in many ways! Just believing and obeying His word will build up our faith! Living out the life he has given us..builds our faith up! My point is that it is not wrong to build yourself up...IN ANY WAY..and that includes praying in the spirit!

I suppose he spoke in other languages just like it says in Acts: In public events, where people witnessed the power of God.

On both sides it would only be an assumption, because the Word does not say! But Paul does say in 2 Cor. 14 that it is speaking to God etc. So why wouldn't he do it in private?

In Acts 2, where were they? In church, or in front of witnesses? In Acts 8 where were they? In church, or in front of witnesses? In Acts 10, where were they? In church, or in front of witnesses? In Acts 19, where were they? In church, or in front of witnesses?

There were people present at all times! But that does not prove that we can not speak to God in private by praying in the Holy Spirit as Paul says!

You can't find a scripture that shows any of the gifts being used privately. If we're supposed to use them for the edifying of ourselves, then why don't we find scriptural examples of this?

Are you saing that you never have faith by yourself? You never use discernment without someone being present? God never gives you a word of knowledge or wisdom for your personal life?
I agree that the gifts are to edify all...but all includes yourself! You first must be build up before you can edify others!

 

[Don]

Paul is plain in 1 Cor. 14 of what tongues is! IT is speaking to God!

So it is NOT declaring the wonderful works of God? Even though that's exactly what Acts 2 says they heard the apostles saying?

I did not say reading the Bible was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! I used that as an example that it is ok to build yourself up in faith! Whether it is reading or praying!

We all agree; reading and praying build you up. What we're discussing is whether the spiritual gifts are meant to build ourselves up, or others.

I never said that! I quoted Jude to show that it is ok to build yourself up praying in the Holy Spirit! There is nothing wrong with building yourself up in faith! By doing that you will benefit the church!

Again, the subject is spiritual gifts; specifically, speaking in languages. We all agree that it's okay to, and that we must, build ourselves up through reading and praying; but the question is about the use of the gifts of the Spirit.

I believe we build ourselves up in faith in many ways! Just believing and obeying His word will build up our faith! Living out the life he has given us..builds our faith up! My point is that it is not wrong to build yourself up...IN ANY WAY..and that includes praying in the spirit!

BUT - is praying in the Spirit *always* praying in another language?

On both sides it would only be an assumption, because the Word does not say! But Paul does say in 2 Cor. 14 that it is speaking to God etc. So why wouldn't he do it in private?

He wouldn't do it in private because of exactly what he wrote in 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 13, 1 Cor 14, and Ephesians 4: The gifts are for the edification and building up of the body.

You MUST be careful with this kind of logic. I have never said that Paul didn't speak in languages outside of the church; what I have done is looked at scripture, specifically the book of Acts, and seen the examples of where he spoke in languages outside of the church, and it was ALWAYS in a public setting, in front of witnesses.

To assume that Paul means he speaks in languages in private is to insert a meaning, an understanding, a knowledge of the subject that isn't supported by scripture.

There were people present at all times! But that does not prove that we can not speak to God in private by praying in the Holy Spirit as Paul says!

Then we should be able to heal in private, correct?

Are you saing that you never have faith by yourself? You never use discernment without someone being present? God never gives you a word of knowledge or wisdom for your personal life?
I agree that the gifts are to edify all...but all includes yourself! You first must be build up before you can edify others!

I agree that we must build up; but how do we do that? With reading and prayer, as you've stated; what does it profit us if we don't understand what we've read or prayed? How are we built up if we don't know or understand what just happened?

 

[awaken]

So it is NOT declaring the wonderful works of God? Even though that's exactly what Acts 2 says they heard the apostles saying?

Where we see this different is that I see them speaking to God and those Jews heard them speaking to God as these scriptures show...
"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

"Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3)

We all agree; reading and praying build you up. What we're discussing is whether the spiritual gifts are meant to build ourselves up, or others.

It is to profit all! Doesn't that include yourself? God gave the manifestation Holy Spirit to believers to profit all!

Again, the subject is spiritual gifts; specifically, speaking in languages. We all agree that it's okay to, and that we must, build ourselves up through reading and praying; but the question is about the use of the gifts of the Spirit.


BUT - is praying in the Spirit *always* praying in another language?

Paul shows the difference in chapter 14. He says he prays in the spirit and with understanding. Paul calls tongues praying in the spirit. I do believe that the Spirit lays on your heart what to pray and you can pray it out in your own understanding. But We can do both! Paul make it clear in vs. 19 that tongues is not with his understanding! I do not see in chapter 14 where Paul calls praying in the spirit/tongues is with our understanding.

He wouldn't do it in private because of exactly what he wrote in 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 13, 1 Cor 14, and Ephesians 4: The gifts are for the edification and building up of the body.

You MUST be careful with this kind of logic. I have never said that Paul didn't speak in languages outside of the church; what I have done is looked at scripture, specifically the book of Acts, and seen the examples of where he spoke in languages outside of the church, and it was ALWAYS in a public setting, in front of witnesses.

To assume that Paul means he speaks in languages in private is to insert a meaning, an understanding, a knowledge of the subject that isn't supported by scripture.

First off I do not see anywhere in scriptures an example of Paul praying in the spirit/tongues. But he does say he does it...but not in church.

Then we should be able to heal in private, correct?

Do you pray for yourself when you are sick? Do you ask God to heal you?

I agree that we must build up; but how do we do that? With reading and prayer, as you've stated; what does it profit us if we don't understand what we've read or prayed? How are we built up if we don't know or understand what just happened?

THat is where most people that have never spoke in tongue get hung up! That is when we pray for the interpretation! God will reveal to us in our spirit what was prayed out by the Holy Spirit. But I do not always have to know what I am praying...I have faith that the Holy Spirit knows the perfect will of God and he will not pray anything against God!
Jude tells us to pray in the Holy Ghost! Paul calls tongues praying in the spirit. Do you see any other definition in scripture of what praying in the spirit is ?

 

[Don]

Where we see this different is that I see them speaking to God and those Jews heard them speaking to God as these scriptures show...
"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

"Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3)

Is this not an example of preaching?

It is to profit all! Doesn't that include yourself? God gave the manifestation Holy Spirit to believers to profit all!

PLEASE re-read the list of verses I've provided from 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 13, 1 Cor 14, and Eph 4. If you can, then please show where scripture shows that spiritual gifts are for the edification of the self.

Paul shows the difference in chapter 14. He says he prays in the spirit and with understanding. Paul calls tongues praying in the spirit. I do believe that the Spirit lays on your heart what to pray and you can pray it out in your own understanding. But We can do both! Paul make it clear in vs. 19 that tongues is not with his understanding! I do not see in chapter 14 where Paul calls praying in the spirit/tongues is with our understanding.

Please re-look at v.19 with the context of the entire chapter--the entire letter to the church at Corinth--in mind. Paul isn't saying that tongues is not with his understanding; in fact, just a few verses before, he says we should pray with the spirit AND with the understanding.

First off I do not see anywhere in scriptures an example of Paul praying in the spirit/tongues. But he does say he does it...but not in church.

Where does he say he doesn't speak in languages in the church?

Do you pray for yourself when you are sick? Do you ask God to heal you?

Of course. And He has. He has. Not through me, but to me. Understand the difference?

THat is where most people that have never spoke in tongue get hung up! That is when we pray for the interpretation! God will reveal to us in our spirit what was prayed out by the Holy Spirit. But I do not always have to know what I am praying...I have faith that the Holy Spirit knows the perfect will of God and he will not pray anything against God!
Jude tells us to pray in the Holy Ghost! Paul calls tongues praying in the spirit. Do you see any other definition in scripture of what praying in the spirit is ?

So when we pray the Lord's Prayer, we don't do that in the Spirit?

 

[DHK]

AND....Paul says that when we speak in tongues we are speaking to God!

Actually Paul doesn't say that, or at least doesn't condone that. You are taking Scripture out of context. Whoever speaks in tongues speaks to God, and they are speaking in mysteries, therefore don't do it. That is the gist of the verse, isn't it? It is a condemnation of the practice. Why take it out of context? He never says "that you are speaking to God," in the sense that it is a good thing to do. He might as well have said you are speaking to a demon. He is saying don't do it. It doesn't edify. That which does not edify the church cannot be done.

Then why in the verses I shared were they speaking to God and telling Him of his wonderful works..praising him for his wonderful works???

OT verses have nothing to do with this topic.

My point is that tongues was the sign to them that the Holy Ghost was sent by Jesus!

And your point is wrong. That was not the purpose of speaking in other languages on the Day of Pentecost at all. It was a sign to these Jews that prophecy had been fulfilled. Peter told them what that prophecy was, and explained the meaning of it. He told them judgment was coming. He told them of "that great and notable day of the Lord" that would be accompanied with signs and wonders from heaven.

Exactly! So the disciples were declaring the wonderful works of God in praise to God...Peter did the preaching!

You are confused and are adding to the Scriptures.
They were declaring the wonderful works of God, but not in praise to God, as you keep adding. They were telling the people of those works, not telling God. Why did God need to know? He already knew of his works. They were telling these unsaved people of God's wonderful works. That is what the text says. You keep adding to the Word of God.
If they had read the Bible, the gospels which tell of the miracles of Christ, would they be telling God or the people?
They were testifying to the people of the wonderful works of God.

Again you are right, they can not see the Spirit! But they did see Him being manifested through the disiples in tongues! 1 cor. 12 tells us that the gifts are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! So what they SAW was tongues!

Again you read into this passage that which is not there. Again, that is adding to the Word of God.
They did not see the Holy Spirit. Neither did the SEE tongues. One does not "see" speech. You can't read the events of 1Cor.12-14 into Pentecost. In 1Cor. Paul was giving instructions to believers. Here the disciples were testifying and preaching to ungodly unbelievers. It is a completely different situation. These are not the manifestations of the Spirit, per se. It is the events of Pentecost, an historical event that happened once in history, never to happen again.
These ungodly people saw some supernatural phenomena. They did not see the Holy Spirit, nor even a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The great majority of them rejected the message of Peter.
The 3,000 that were saved, were convicted of the Holy Spirit:
"Men and brethren what shall we do." That was the Holy Spirit working in their hearts. They were in the minority.
They got saved. The Holy Spirit entered and indwelt their hearts; not the rest--not the 97,000 others that were present.

I have gone over this with you in previous threads! THe Holy Spirit was poured out for all that believe...Acts 2:38-39! I understand the indwelling Holy Spirit! That is our new birth! But the baptism is for power!

No, Eph. 5:18 says to be filled with the Holy Spirit is for power.
Throughout the book of Acts we find different disciples stand up, and being filled with the Holy Spirit they spoke with power.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with power. The Scriptures don't teach that. It is a one time event connected with salvation. Since you have a wrong view of the Book of Acts you will continue to have a wrong view of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit." Show me the view you hold through the epistles only.

 

[awaken]

Is this not an example of preaching?

This is praying, speaking to God!

PLEASE re-read the list of verses I've provided from 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 13, 1 Cor 14, and Eph 4. If you can, then please show where scripture shows that spiritual gifts are for the edification of the self.

I have read those provided! Paul said in 1 Cor. 14 that tongues edifies self! He did not say it was a bad thing to edify self...just in the church seek to edify the body. I also shared that it was to profit all and self is included in all!

Please re-look at v.19 with the context of the entire chapter--the entire letter to the church at Corinth--in mind. Paul isn't saying that tongues is not with his understanding; in fact, just a few verses before, he says we should pray with the spirit AND with the understanding.

These are two ways of praying! He contrast the two in vs. 19 as he explains that he would rather speak in words in HIS understanding. This shows you that tongues even by Paul is not understood when spoken. But Words with his understanding is!

Where does he say he doesn't speak in languages in the church?

verse 19 "Yet in church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue" He prefers speaking with his understanding in church in order to TEACH others.

Of course. And He has. He has. Not through me, but to me. Understand the difference?

Really? I thought it was through the power of the Holy Spirit that all healing took place! Healing manifested in your body, didn't it?

So when we pray the Lord's Prayer, we don't do that in the Spirit?

I do not see that is says to pray in our spirit when he was teaching the Lords prayer. IT is with our understanding!

 

[Don]

This is praying, speaking to God!

So you've never heard preaching like this?

I have read those provided! Paul said in 1 Cor. 14 that tongues edifies self! He did not say it was a bad thing to edify self...just in the church seek to edify the body. I also shared that it was to profit all and self is included in all!

Then you're ignoring what those verses say.

These are two ways of praying! He contrast the two in vs. 19 as he explains that he would rather speak in words in HIS understanding. This shows you that tongues even by Paul is not understood when spoken. But Words with his understanding is!

You're making a distinction that actually makes your argument for speaking in languages worse.

Consider: When I speak, whether it be in a known language or an unknown language, do I speak babble? Or do I speak words?

So when Paul says he'd rather use five words easy to be understood, he's talking about five words in a language. If you seek to make a distinction between languages and words, you're actually setting up a defense of speaking in babble.

verse 19 "Yet in church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue" He prefers speaking with his understanding in church in order to TEACH others.

EXACTLY. And where do you see in scripture that using any of the spiritual gifts is for anything other than teaching others?

Really? I thought it was through the power of the Holy Spirit that all healing took place! Healing manifested in your body, didn't it?

EXACTLY. God healed me; He didn't use me to heal myself. He used the apostles to heal others; I can find no scripture where He uses anyone to heal themselves.

I do not see that is says to pray in our spirit when he was teaching the Lords prayer. IT is with our understanding!

So Jesus - God Himself - only wanted us to pray with the understanding?

 

[awaken]

So you've never heard preaching like this?

I have heard God magnified/lifted up from the pulpit! Anytime we speak of God is should be lifting him up! But Paul is the only one that really explains tongues and he says it is praying in the spirit.

Then you're ignoring what those verses say.

NO, I am ignoring what you are trying to make them say! He is not condemning edifying yourself. If he is then Jude is contradicting Paul!

You're making a distinction that actually makes your argument for speaking in languages worse.

Consider: When I speak, whether it be in a known language or an unknown language, do I speak babble? Or do I speak words?

So when Paul says he'd rather use five words easy to be understood, he's talking about five words in a language. If you seek to make a distinction between languages and words, you're actually setting up a defense of speaking in babble.

If you read vs. 14-19 where he is contrasting speaking in tongues/praying in tongues/praying with the spirit with the understanding it is clear that one is not understood to the speaker (or church unless there is an interpretation) and one is understood. We are to pray with both! But in church he would rather speak in his understanding/not tongues. He does not mention babble!

EXACTLY. And where do you see in scripture that using any of the spiritual gifts is for anything other than teaching others?

You continue to argue this and ignoring the fact that Paul says it is PRAYING! Where we speak to God and not man. Last time I looked God did not need to be taught or evangelized! Yet he does desire our prayer!

EXACTLY. God healed me; He didn't use me to heal myself. He used the apostles to heal others; I can find no scripture where He uses anyone to heal themselves.

In all cases it is the power of the Holy Spirit that heals not man! So where does it say that we are not to pray for our healing?

So Jesus - God Himself - only wanted us to pray with the understanding?

Evidently not! Because he gave us tongues/praying in the spirit!
Jesus never mentioned tongues until Mark 16.
Tongues and the interpretation of tongues is the only manifestation that was after the Day of Pentecost.

The promise of the Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus went to be with the Father. Acts 2 was the first record of someone speaking in tongues! When the Holy Spirit was poured out to believers!

 

[The Biblicist]

So you've never heard preaching like this?


Then you're ignoring what those verses say.


You're making a distinction that actually makes your argument for speaking in languages worse.

Consider: When I speak, whether it be in a known language or an unknown language, do I speak babble? Or do I speak words?

So when Paul says he'd rather use five words easy to be understood, he's talking about five words in a language. If you seek to make a distinction between languages and words, you're actually setting up a defense of speaking in babble.


EXACTLY. And where do you see in scripture that using any of the spiritual gifts is for anything other than teaching others?


EXACTLY. God healed me; He didn't use me to heal myself. He used the apostles to heal others; I can find no scripture where He uses anyone to heal themselves.


So Jesus - God Himself - only wanted us to pray with the understanding?

Your wasting your time! Awaken is anything but awake to spiritual things. It does not matter how often you prove awaken wrong, awaken is incapable of spiritual discernment.

 

[Yeshua1]

IMHO, one needs to be in possession of the baptism with the Holy Spirit ...
in order to spiritually understand anything about it and the 9 spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12.
Explaining these things to almost anyone is like talking to a brick wall.

Spiritual truths about such topics as these are nicely hidden in Scripture
so as not to upset those who have not been given them.

Another simple example is the Trinity ... basically only accepted by spiritual revelation.
And I'm not talking about those having blind faith from birth.
Many church-goers do not believe in the Trinity, or even that Jesus is God.
.

How can you say that we MUST have the "baptism" in the HG in order to understand spiritual things, when there is NO command to seek/get that from god, and that ALl the saved have same unction to know all things of God, thru.by the indwelling HS in all saved?

 

[Don]

I have heard God magnified/lifted up from the pulpit! Anytime we speak of God is should be lifting him up!

So we agree that what happened in Acts 2 is a form of preaching.

But Paul is the only one that really explains tongues and he says it is praying in the spirit.

He also says that if you speak other languages without love, you are as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. And who should we have that love for? Love for ourselves? Or love for others?

NO, I am ignoring what you are trying to make them say! He is not condemning edifying yourself. If he is then Jude is contradicting Paul!

Then you are not truly reading those verses, or you would see that our emphasis should ALWAYS be on others, not ourselves.

In fact, you don't even recognize how much your steadfast argument for the gift for ourselves makes you look selfish.

If you read vs. 14-19 where he is contrasting speaking in tongues/praying in tongues/praying with the spirit with the understanding it is clear that one is not understood to the speaker (or church unless there is an interpretation) and one is understood. We are to pray with both! But in church he would rather speak in his understanding/not tongues. He does not mention babble!

Actually, he does mention babble. He says that if someone doesn't understand him, he is as a barbarian; and if he doesn't understand that person, they are as a barbarian. He says that if someone sees the church speaking in unknown languages, they would think everyone was mad. Paul doesn't use the word "babble," but it's clear that "babble" is what he's talking about.

You continue to argue this and ignoring the fact that Paul says it is PRAYING! Where we speak to God and not man. Last time I looked God did not need to be taught or evangelized! Yet he does desire our prayer!


In all cases it is the power of the Holy Spirit that heals not man! So where does it say that we are not to pray for our healing?

Oh, please. Where did I say that we are not to pray for healing? What I said was that the spiritual gift of healing, which was always evidenced in scripture by the laying on of hands, is not for personal use. It's meant for the edification of the body, just as all the gifts are.

And that means OTHERS, not "self".

Evidently not! Because he gave us tongues/praying in the spirit!
Jesus never mentioned tongues until Mark 16.
Tongues and the interpretation of tongues is the only manifestation that was after the Day of Pentecost.

The promise of the Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus went to be with the Father. Acts 2 was the first record of someone speaking in tongues! When the Holy Spirit was poured out to believers!

So when we pray, we are to always pray in languages?

 

[awaken]

So we agree that what happened in Acts 2 is a form of preaching.

I do not see in scriptures where the purpose of tongues is for preaching! Just because they were declaring the wonderful works of God does not mean they were preaching!

He also says that if you speak other languages without love, you are as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. And who should we have that love for? Love for ourselves? Or love for others?

I agree with Paul and IN CHURCH we should not speak in tongues without the interpretation. That we should consider others and their edification!

Then you are not truly reading those verses, or you would see that our emphasis should ALWAYS be on others, not ourselves.

In fact, you don't even recognize how much your steadfast argument for the gift for ourselves makes you look selfish.

Then you ignore Jude 20! Is it selfish for a football player to workout and practice throwing and catching the ball without the team/ by himself? Isn't it thinking of the team if you want to become a better football player? Why is that not considered selfish? Speaking in tongues/praying in the spirit builds your faith up! When your faith is stronger then you are in better shape to help the body! How many times do I have to explain that! It is not selfish!

Actually, he does mention babble. He says that if someone doesn't understand him, he is as a barbarian; and if he doesn't understand that person, they are as a barbarian. He says that if someone sees the church speaking in unknown languages, they would think everyone was mad. Paul doesn't use the word "babble," but it's clear that "babble" is what he's talking about.

If I walked in and someone was speaking a foreign language that I did not know...it would sound like babble! It would not benefit me at all! Unless someone interpreted what was being said! What the guy would be saying would be a pure language...but it would not benefit me or anyone that did not know that language. Paul is plain in that when they prayed in the spirit/bless with the spirit that they themselves are praying "well" vs. 17...but it is not edifying to the others.

Oh, please. Where did I say that we are not to pray for healing? What I said was that the spiritual gift of healing, which was always evidenced in scripture by the laying on of hands, is not for personal use. It's meant for the edification of the body, just as all the gifts are.

And that means OTHERS, not "self".

Look! I have said over and over that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given to every man to profit all! But you are telling me that I am not included in that all! IF you have the gifts of healing and you are sick...are you saying you would not lay hands on yourself and pray?

So when we pray, we are to always pray in languages?

How else would you pray? Even praying in the spirit is a language...just one that the speaker himself does not know or understand!

 

[Don]

I do not see in scriptures where the purpose of tongues is for preaching! Just because they were declaring the wonderful works of God does not mean they were preaching!

....

I agree with Paul and IN CHURCH we should not speak in tongues without the interpretation. That we should consider others and their edification!

Do you also agree with Paul that the gifts are for the edification of the body?

Then you ignore Jude 20! Is it selfish for a football player to workout and practice throwing and catching the ball without the team/ by himself? Isn't it thinking of the team if you want to become a better football player? Why is that not considered selfish? Speaking in tongues/praying in the spirit builds your faith up! When your faith is stronger then you are in better shape to help the body! How many times do I have to explain that! It is not selfish!

Then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you're saying whenever we pray, it must be in other languages.

If I walked in and someone was speaking a foreign language that I did not know...it would sound like babble! It would not benefit me at all! Unless someone interpreted what was being said! What the guy would be saying would be a pure language...but it would not benefit me or anyone that did not know that language. Paul is plain in that when they prayed in the spirit/bless with the spirit that they themselves are praying "well" vs. 17...but it is not edifying to the others.

Exactly. Babble. Thank you for acknowledging that.

Look! I have said over and over that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given to every man to profit all! But you are telling me that I am not included in that all! IF you have the gifts of healing and you are sick...are you saying you would not lay hands on yourself and pray?

I am saying that you have NO scriptural basis for using the gifts for yourself. You have NO scriptural examples of the apostles using the gifts for their own personal benefit. There is NO scripture that supports edifying yourself by the use of the gifts.

How else would you pray? Even praying in the spirit is a language...just one that the speaker himself does not know or understand!

And that avoids the question, and is dishonest. You know full well we're discussing the gift of speaking in unknown languages.

But you basically answered the question above. You've pretty much said that whenever we pray, we are to do it in an unknown languag

 

[awaken]

....


Do you also agree with Paul that the gifts are for the edification of the body?

Yes! It is to profit ALL!

Then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that you're saying whenever we pray, it must be in other languages.

Why do you come to that conclusion when Paul says for us to pray in both "I will pray with the spirit AND i will pray with the understanding.."

Exactly. Babble. Thank you for acknowledging that.

That is not what I said, but if you want to continue to call one of the manifestations of the spirit "babble"...go ahead! You missed the point where Paul said he gave thanks "WELL".. It is just not edifying to the body without the interpretation.

I am saying that you have NO scriptural basis for using the gifts for yourself. You have NO scriptural examples of the apostles using the gifts for their own personal benefit. There is NO scripture that supports edifying yourself by the use of the gifts.

So if Paul says it is praying...you are saying I can not pray in private?????

And that avoids the question, and is dishonest. You know full well we're discussing the gift of speaking in unknown languages.

But you basically answered the question above. You've pretty much said that whenever we pray, we are to do it in an unknown languag

Nowhere in scriptures does it say to pray all prayers in tongues! You have to ignore Paul saying do both! In the spirit AND with the understanding!
But I wil leave this scripture with you and you can use it as the Lord leads...
"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." (Ephesians 6:18)

 

[Don]

Yes! It is to profit ALL!

To edify the body.

Why do you come to that conclusion when Paul says for us to pray in both "I will pray with the spirit AND i will pray with the understanding.."

Because you keep refusing to understand basic grammar that says these are NOT separate. We are not to speak in other languages without understanding.

That is not what I said, but if you want to continue to call one of the manifestations of the spirit "babble"...go ahead! You missed the point where Paul said he gave thanks "WELL".. It is just not edifying to the body without the interpretation.

And you keep missing the point that Paul said if it is without understanding, then it is as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal, or as a barbarian...in other words, as you've admitted, it's just babble.

So if Paul says it is praying...you are saying I can not pray in private?????

NO. I said you can't be selfish and use the spiritual gifts for your own personal benefit.

Nowhere in scriptures does it say to pray all prayers in tongues! You have to ignore Paul saying do both! In the spirit AND with the understanding!
But I wil leave this scripture with you and you can use it as the Lord leads...
"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." (Ephesians 6:18)

So answer the question: Is praying in the Spirit ALWAYS praying in an unknown language?

 

[evangelist-7]

Just arrived today, Wed June 26 ...
re: tongues, sanctification unto holiness, etc. ...
Why not be the very first one on your block to get involved?

The LAST OUTPOURING by David Wilkerson

I know some will not receive what I am about to say, yet many will.
I do not believe we have yet seen the glory and fullness of the
outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel. What we have
seen are just a few sprinkles! Yes, we have had a worldwide
charismatic renewal and love has brought many together. It has
been an experience shared worldwide, yet it is just a foretaste.

God will permit nothing to hinder what he plans to do. The enemy
is in for a surprise. Just as it appears the church will be inundated
by a satanic flood, the Spirit will raise up a standard. Understand
what that standard is, and you will understand what God is about
to do. The standard is a holy people, pure, undefiled, delivered
from the corruption that is in the world. That standard is a new
breed of sanctified Christians, who will shine forth as lights in the
midst of a wicked and perverse generation. It will not be just a
renewal of love and praise, but a restoration of holiness unto the Lord!

There will still be shouting and praise, but it will be the shout of
victory over sin and compromise, fulfilling the purpose of the last
outpouring: "That all who call on his name shall be delivered..."
(Joel 2:32). Delivered from what? From sin! From the spirit of the world!

We will not have had the fullness of the Spirit´s outpouring until
baptized people separate themselves completely from the world.
We must emphasize separation and purity of heart. The purpose
of the Spirit´s coming is to sanctify and prepare a people for the
Lord´s return, a people without spot or wrinkle.

When the fullness of the Spirit´s outpouring comes upon all flesh,
conviction for sin will be everywhere. "He will convict the world of
sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:8).
That is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit!

Tragically, too many speak with tongues, but then live like the devil.
Sin was never uprooted and all they received was an experience of
ecstasy. God blessed them just enough to call them into a deeper
life of holiness and submission, but they stopped and went about
saying, "I´ve got the Holy Ghost."

Oh, there is so much more! I thank God for the privilege of praying
in an unknown tongue; it is my way of releasing all the pent-up
praises to God in a communication beyond my understanding.
But you can speak with the tongues of men and even angels, and
without charity, you have received nothing. But I say it goes even
deeper. You are not truly baptized with the Holy Spirit until every
hidden part of your soul has been exposed-and every sin
confessed and forsaken.

-PLEASE COMMENT on this topic at the following website-
http://www.revivalschool.com/

(c) 2010, World Challenge, Inc. - www.worldchallenge.org
.