Self justification

[steaver]

You hear this all the time from people who support abortion. They will declare that they "personally" do not believe a person should be killed in the womb, BUT they support women having the right to make that choice for themselves. Now if we would be speaking about a personal choice which God finds no judgment of righteousness in one way or the other, then these folks would have a pass. However, we are not speaking of a person "personally" believing a Ford is the only vehicle they would own, but they support other people's right to choose a Chevy. We are speaking about the killing of a person God is creating in the womb of woman, who by the way 99.9% of which had the "personal choice" as to whether or not to get pregnant in the first place.

This is no less the same as folks saying "I personally believe Jesus Christ is my way to heaven, but other religion's ways are ok with God also".

God speaks about these people in the scriptures...

"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God". (Luke 16:15)

Abortion is highly esteemed among the democratic party and those who love the women's right to kill their babies (cover speak "Women's Health Choice")

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:" (Isa 29:13)

 

[InTheLight]

Another saying among Democrats is "we need to make abortion safe, legal, but rare. We need to reduce the number of abortions."

That's just another roundabout way of saying they approve of abortions.

 

[annsni]

I agree. If you really think something is wrong, why would you not seek to stop that thing?

 

[Revmitchell]

Another saying among Democrats is "we need to make abortion safe, legal, but rare. We need to reduce the number of abortions."

That's just another roundabout way of saying they approve of abortions.

Typical liberal double speak

 

[Zaac]

You hear this all the time from people who support abortion. They will declare that they "personally" do not believe a person should be killed in the womb, BUT they support women having the right to make that choice for themselves. Now if we would be speaking about a personal choice which God finds no judgment of righteousness in one way or the other, then these folks would have a pass.

Right here is where I believe Christians go wrong because of personal feelings and not because of something God says.

Scripture says:

"I have the right to do anything," you say--but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Cor. 6:12 (NIV)

"Everything is permissible for me," but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me," but I will not be mastered by anything. (Berean Study)

All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. (New American Standard)

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (King James)

So if GOD has given us the right to do everything or to at least make the CHOICE to do everything, why would Christians want to try to legislate that away? He has given His law and advocating that the government make laws on top of that seems kinda counterproductive and seems to have opened the door for folks to actually believe it's okay to kill an unborn child or a born adult just because the government says it's okay.

I believe that God's word makes clear that He gives us the RIGHT to choose, but to choose to take the life is 100% wrong. Just like we may choose to divorce,but other than for the reasons God allows, it's 100% wrong.

The essence of obeying or disobeying is choice. Taking that choice away does not change the heart.

Now again, like capital punishment, the government may choose to govern and allow whatever it wants. But I don't believe that Christians should advocate to take away God-given choice anymore than I believe we should advocate for the taking of ANY life.

However, we are not speaking of a person "personally" believing a Ford is the only vehicle they would own, but they support other people's right to choose a Chevy. We are speaking about the killing of a person God is creating in the womb of woman, who by the way 99.9% of which had the "personal choice" as to whether or not to get pregnant in the first place.

This is no less the same as folks saying "I personally believe Jesus Christ is my way to heaven, but other religion's ways are ok with God also".

God speaks about these people in the scriptures...

"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God". (Luke 16:15)

Abortion is highly esteemed among the democratic party and those who love the women's right to kill their babies (cover speak "Women's Health Choice")

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:" (Isa 29:13)

I again think this is why evangelicals in the GOP are so ineffective in dealing with this issue. The approach of taking away the choice appears to be an unGodly one. Maybe this is the issue where Christians lost their way and decided that the political system was the way instead of God's way to deal with sin and what ails the country and this world.

We are to make disciples who obey everything that HE commands. If you take away the choice, it ain't gonna change the heart.

God has commissioned us to go after the hearts.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Zaac, I'm actually in class, so this will be short. Hopefully my point is not lost on brevity. But we have legislated away the right to choose to murder someone, and I don't think you're against that. Abortion is the same.

In all actuality, you can't take away the choice. You can simply make the choice have negative consequences.

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[Zaac]

I agree. If you really think something is wrong, why would you not seek to stop that thing?

I'm all for seeking to stop it. I just think the way that God intended for us, CHRISTIANS, to stop it is to make more disciples who obey everything that HE commands and not by taking away choice that He has given.

At one point, He was enough and His law was enough. And then His people decided that they wanted a king because everyone else had a king. Along with that king came laws that went against what God's word says.

His way against combating evil has always been that we make disciples who obey everything that HE commands. It's never been to make laws in addition to His that take away the freedom of choice that He has given.

I truly believe that if Christians spent the same energies on sharing the Gospel and making disciples, the abortion rate would be obliterated. But because we continue to try and legislate and tell people what they can't do, they want to do it all the more.

No one likes being told what to do. And I think that's why God basically says "do what you want to do. But it won't all benefit you".

Ours is to show them why doing it GOD's way...why making the CHOICE to choose that way will actually benefit them vs another way that leads to death and destruction.

 

[Zaac]

Zaac, I'm actually in class, so this will be short. Hopefully my point is not lost on brevity. But we have legislated away the right to choose to murder someone, and I don't think you're against that. Abortion is the same.

I agree Sapper. I believe that is also an emotion driven issue. God has told us to not murder so there really shouldn't be any need for Christians to agree with legislating away the choice. Of course it sounds kinda out there. But what of God doesn't sound out there?

HE has given us choice. The taking away of that choice is a man-made construct that in a lot of ways encourages disobedience.

In all actuality, you can't take away the choice. You can simply make the choice have negative consequences.

I think that is in part true. In part because with the government, if it wasn't about taking away the choice, they would do as God's word says and give the command. But they don't. Man-made laws usually follow the template of IF you do something, THIS is what the consequence will be or you cannot do XYZ, but if you do , the consequence will be.

With abortion legislation and Christians, it's all about taking away the choice.

 

[steaver]

Another saying among Democrats is "we need to make abortion safe, legal, but rare. We need to reduce the number of abortions."

That's just another roundabout way of saying they approve of abortions.

If they really wanted to reduce the number of abortions without outlawing abortions it would be very simple. Just support legislation requiring women seeking abortions to be educated on what is occurring when an abortion procedure is being performed. If these people really cared about a woman's "entire" well being, which includes mental health, they would want women educated before they had this done so they would not suffer mental depression if they find out later what was done to their child. But they don't really care about reducing abortions.

 

[steaver]

So if GOD has given us the right to do everything or to at least make the CHOICE to do everything, why would Christians want to try to legislate that away?

Are you serious brother?? You actually believe God has given people the right to kill other people? Your reasoning does not work. If every person in the country was a Christian and you were the pope or head teacher of the flock, your advice to the country would be lawlessness. In other words you would instruct Christians to not seek any governing laws for the people. if you want to kill your neighbour, well that is your God given choice. Really? You do not want any laws??

 

[Revmitchell]

If they really wanted to reduce the number of abortions without outlawing abortions it would be very simple. Just support legislation requiring women seeking abortions to be educated on what is occurring when an abortion procedure is being performed. If these people really cared about a woman's "entire" well being, which includes mental health, they would want women educated before they had this done so they would not suffer mental depression if they find out later what was done to their child. But they don't really care about reducing abortions.

Umm....that is already being done in fact the drop in abortions is in direct proportion to new legislation moving in the states. In fact PP is being run out of many areas in each state.

 

[steaver]

It's never been to make laws in addition to His that take away the freedom of choice that He has given.

Your mixed up here brother. Your taking a person's individual right to sin and declaring Christians should not create laws with consequences for breaking those laws. How would you feel if there was no law to lock up a rapist and said rapist raped your wife or child? And that rapist could just freely go from house to house a rape whomever he wants? Your answer is "well, he has that God given choice, try to give him the gospel after each time he rapes another child".

 

[steaver]

Umm....that is already being done in fact the drop in abortions is in direct proportion to new legislation moving in the states. In fact PP is being run out of many areas in each state.

Some states and good for them, but not all. And the democrats fought it all the way.....

 

[Zaac]

Are you serious brother?? You actually believe God has given people the right to kill other people?

Now did you just read right by the qualifying of my statement? Yes, God has given us the choice to decide whether or not we want to take another life. Are you denying that Scripture says that all things are permissible?

Your reasoning does not work. If every person in the country was a Christian and you were the pope or head teacher of the flock, your advice to the country would be lawlessness.

That's just silly reasoning on your behalf. Lawlessness exists because folks CHOOSE to sin. It doesn't exist because folks decide they don't like man-made laws. My advice would be the same as god commands. HE has already given His law. Make disciples who obey it.

In other words you would instruct Christians to not seek any governing laws for the people.

You do understand that the Israelites sought a king and governing laws because God and His law wasn't enough for them. They wanted what everyone else had.

The only law that Christians need to be seeking for the people is that given from GOD. That however doesn't preclude lost men in the government system from making it's own laws for the folks who don't think God's law is enough.

if you want to kill your neighbour, well that is your God given choice. Really?

Yes really. You still trying to deny that God's word says that all things are permissible? You can make the choice to do whatever you want. That doesn't mean that God doesn't find whatever you want to be sinful.

You do not want any laws??

??? God has already given His law. Did it go somewhere?

 

[Zaac]

Your mixed up here brother. Your taking a person's individual right to sin and declaring Christians should not create laws with consequences for breaking those laws.

Listen if you're gonna submit to man's laws that don't have anything to do with God's as far as the consequences, go right ahead. Just don't act like you're taking away people's right to choose because of God.

How would you feel if there was no law to lock up a rapist and said rapist raped your wife or child?

How would you feel if Christians were so busy making disciples who obey everything that Christ commands that there were no rapists or any need for a law to lock up what didn't exist?

And that rapist could just freely go from house to house a rape whomever he wants? Your answer is "well, he has that God given choice, try to give him the gospel after each time he rapes another child".

Enter emotion stage left. Again, truth isn't based on your emotions. It;s based on what God says. Man's government says to make laws that give consequences as a deterrent to rape.

Jesus says to make disciples who obey everything HE commands as the deterrent.

His way is the correct way.

 

[steaver]

Yes really. You still trying to deny that God's word says that all things are permissible?

Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
(Exodus 20)

Just to name a few.....

You are abusing the liberty found in Christ just like the Corinthians were doing which Paul had to scold them for and further elaborate for them just what "all things" he was speaking of. Go and look up all the commentaries written on this passage over the centuries and find me one that believes it is to be applied to the Christian walk as you wish to apply it. You won't find even one.

God does not tell Paul or us that it is permissible to murder or steal, etc. Do you know what your position is stating? You are declaring that God is stating "You have My permission to murder another human being". That is exactly what YOUR application of 1Cor 6 is stating. If you have God's permission on a matter, then God is giving you the OK.

 

[Zaac]

Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
(Exodus 20)

Just to name a few.....

Not a single one of those take away your right to make the CHOICE to do them.

You are abusing the liberty found in Christ just like the Corinthians were doing which Paul had to scold them for and further elaborate for them just what "all things" he was speaking of.

Now you're sounding like Donald TRUMP with his transference.[emoji57] If God says you have the right to do all things, why would I say any different? He qualifies what He says and thus the unity with his commands. What you and others have been doing is trying to use the wrongness of the man-made system to fight what should be fought God's way.

Go and look up all the commentaries written on this passage over the centuries and find me one that believes it is to be applied to the Christian walk as you wish to apply it. You won't find even one.

I don't need to look up commentary. Scripture commentates on Scripture. And you and others continue to cosign with man's way being the answer instead of God's way and then wondering why there have been so many abortions since the 70s.

Let men make their laws that take away choice. You name disciples who give God their voice.

God does not tell Paul or us that it is permissible to murder or steal, etc. Do you know what your position is stating? You are declaring that God is stating "You have My permission to murder another human being". That is exactly what YOUR application of 1Cor 6 is stating. If you have God's permission on a matter, then God is giving you the OK.

So are you saying that God is lying when He says all things are permissible? God has given you the choice to do whatever you want. But He qualifies the statement and tells you why some choices aren't beneficial. The number one reason is that He has commanded against them.

Everything GOD commands, you are given the choice to obey or disobey. Stop trying to get folks to change by taking away the choice HE has given. A lot of times I think we just go along with stuff because it's easier than us doing what we're commissioned of God to do.

Again the reason sin is reigning is because Christians, like with Trump, continue to try to do things their way instead of God's way. And you see what that looks like.



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[steaver]

Stop trying to get folks to change by taking away the choice HE has given.

It's not about "trying to get folks to change". You are deflecting with a straw man argument. It's about protecting people WITH LAWS to lock up and deter because of the reality that children of the devil exist and few there be that find the narrow road...Jesus' facts of life revealed unto us (1 John, Matt 7). You never answered, you dodged....do you want there to be a governmental law against the raping of children? Yes or No? Do you want there to be a governmental law against murder? Yes or No?

 

[Zaac]

It's not about "trying to get folks to change". You are deflecting with a straw man argument.

You're the one deflecting with the strawman argument. Why do you keep trying to undo what God has said because you obviously like man's way better?

It's about protecting people WITH LAWS to lock up and deter because of the reality that children of the devil exist and few there be that find the narrow road...Jesus' facts of life revealed unto us (1 John, Matt 7).

Listen, you can make every noble excuse in the world for why you want to do things man's way instead of God's. It changes nothing. He says all things are permissible so YOU, follower of Christ, stop advocating against the choices HE says folks can make.

Yours is to do the things that will change hearts. Christians seem to have forgotten this and have overly indulged in man's politics. It's why the state of the country morally is where it is.

You never answered, you dodged....do you want there to be a governmental law against the raping of children? Yes or No?

The GOVERNMENT can make whatever laws they want. Christians should not be advocates for laws that go against God's word. He says choices can be made so stop trying to take away those choices.

Do you think people shouldn't have the choice to do whatever they want?

Do you want there to be a governmental law against murder? Yes or No?

The GOVERNMENT can make whatever law they wish. God has given people the freedom of choice to decide if they want to kill or not kill. SO why don't you obey HIM and focus on making disciples who obey everything that HE commands instead of trying to do things man way and take away the right to make choices?

 

[Don]

The GOVERNMENT can make whatever law they wish. God has given people the freedom of choice to decide if they want to kill or not kill. SO why don't you obey HIM and focus on making disciples who obey everything that HE commands instead of trying to do things man way and take away the right to make choices?

There are several fallacies with this argument. One is "either-or." The other is the assumption that man's laws will be unnecessary once all hearts are changed.

Scripture tells us the way is narrow, and only a few will take it. That means that a majority of hearts will NOT change.

Until His kingdom is established on earth, man's laws are necessary for protection.

We don't know which of the hearts will change, so we preach; but until His kingdom comes, and preaching is no longer required, we still have a responsibility, a duty, to protect and watch out for each other. So we must also enact and enforce man-made laws, hopefully based--but as we well know, not always--on scriptural principles and understanding.

In other words, to rectify the fallacies of Zaac's post, we must do both, not decide on one or the other.

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