Self-righteousness in Christianity

[Earth Wind and Fire]

First of all we need to define the term "fight." I don't mean ad homenem. I mean the ability to have your views sharply scrutinized and criticized while fiercely criticizing and scrutinizing the views of others.

I'm no stranger to Puritan board.

Fights break out there all of the time.

HOWEVER, the extremes don't exist on Puritan board so fighting is going to be less severe and less frequent than what is called for here.

On Puritanboard you don't have ANYBODY who thinks that God DID NOT KNOW exactly what future would take place before he made the world.

On Puritanboard you don't have people saying nonsense like "God is so sovereign that he is not sovereign over billions of things that happen every day in this world."

On puritanboard you don't have the disdain for education that you find with so many on here.

On Puritanboard you don't have many people like Winman who will say, "I don't NEED any man to teach me. I don't care what the whole history of the Christian church has believed about a particular passage or doctrine. GOD SPEAKS TO ME!"


Do you see?

Yes I do & always have.... but you are not going to persuade anyone by what you are attempting now. Both you & I fervently believe in historical orthodoxy, salvation by grace alone (sola gratia) but you are now contending for position with those who have added divine grace plus human effort .... thats their position & they have held it for a long time. To my way of thinking & Im sure yours as well, that is a theological dislocation that will lead to the eventual abandonment of orthodoxy.

What I attempted to explain to you in an earlier message is that we have people who do sit back & observe. Do we want them to view us as the offensive & nasty side of the argument & drive these people to become Arminians.....as Paul stated "God Forbid"! :laugh: Rather we want them to understand & appreciate the meaning of the Reformed faith (& accept rather than reject our understanding)

Brother, and you only do that by scholarly & genteel debate & persuasion. Take the high road. Allow the "Paul Washers" of the world to agitate the masses. Unless of course, If you want to join Paul on the missionary field, thats your prerogative. As for me, this place is a great learning tool for how to deal with people without leaving your seat. Pray for me though, Im an itinerant with a bible in hand trying to bring people from NJ to the lord. It aint easy.

 

[12strings]

Neither does it follow that it is NOT rampant on this site.

Could it be?

Could I be right?

You could be right, that it is present in some. But I'm convinced from the posts I have read that there are at least SOME who would agree with you on many points, except they honestly believe your caustic approach to not be helpful, or biblically called for, and who simply say so because it is what they believe, not because they want to fit in with everyone else who is saying so.

It is not courageous to take a majority opinion in the midst of an entire culture that agrees with you.

This culture hates polemics in Christianity and seeks to strip that tool from our hands.

To take a stand WITH the majority opinion will not make one LESS liked or thought of LESS highly. It bolsters one's opinion of himself and the opinion which others have of him.

So, yes, it is possible, but not probable, in my opinion.

Thanks.

I'm not running for office. Baptist board is just one tiny place. If I wanted I could find thousands upon thousands of people who agree with my op and my passion for polemics. But truth is not based on a majority of people in one tiny place in one brief span of time.

Mocking the prophets of Baal and withstanding Peter to his face may not be in vogue but there are still plenty of Christians who believe in it.

Absolutely right, but as you are fond of saying, God gave us other Christians to help us learn, and it would be foolish to ignore them. And so, if I were to begin a line of threads that nearly every other Christian who reads, regardless of theological position, believes to be promoting an unhelpful spirit...I would take that advice into consideration.

I do not deny it. Not for a second. But the question is, in the midst of my motives tainted by my Adamic nature- is there TRUTH?

COULD IT BE that rebuking people sharply is called for OFTEN on this site and in this culture and people who HATE it have swallowed the lie of this culture.

Could it be that we really DO live in the age of Joel Osteen instead of the age of Jonathan Edwards and therefore the tendency is to be pusillanimous not over-aggressive? And therefore one who is appropriately aggressive is viewed as over-aggressive in this age that is so heavily influenced by hippies and liberals and political correctness?

Look, don't misunderstand me. I really do believe in gentleness. I really do DESPISE the "ministry" of Fred Phelps. I really do repudiate preaching like that of Phil Kidd. I really do.

And I do think that on the meter of appropriate harshness my needle does cross the line often.

BUT I ALSO think that the tendency of the age is to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to aggressiveness- because there are some who hammer the nail too deeply lets throw the hammer away and try to drive nails with handfuls of posies.

Do you see?

I'm not advocating not being direct. Directness is one of your good points.
I'm advocating not being rude.

Once again, I do not deny it.

And I do think that some introspection is better than none. So perhaps that statement in quotes IS representative of how I feel. I am not above being that self-aggrandizing. I know it well.

But I did not see ANY introspection on YOUR PART. Did you do any? Did you stop for one SECOND and say, "Luke, though he may be as guilty of it as ALL of us are, might have a point. My idea of what is Christian may indeed be heavily influenced by this politically correct, Joel Osteen ruled religious culture,"?

Did you do that?

I did consider your posts and arguments. I grant that the majority of your statements are correct, just that often the tone makes the message hard to see. You are, of course, correct that I want to be a people-pleaser, that I am self-righteous, and can find something in most people that makes me feel superior (although at the same time, I can also find something in every other person to envy...so with most people, I am both feeling superior to them and envying something about them at the same time). It is something I must constantly work against. I don't believe, however, that finding someone who is saying stupid, or untrue things, and being as mean as possible to them is the way to combat my own self-righteousness and people-pleasing.

 

[InTheLight]

Would somebody please point out what theology is being discussed in this thread?

Why is this.....thing allowed to go on? C'mon mods, shut it down!

 

[Luke2427]

How many others are not welcome in your church?

As church MEMBERS?

Billions are not welcome. You can't be a member of our church if you are a homosexual, have not been baptized by immersion have not made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior or are just a snotty, insulting, disrespectful troublemaker.

As attenders- anyone who can participate respectfully and attend without being insulting or stirring controversy is welcome.

I mean your approach in what you veil as 'debate' that you are called out on by those other than me.

You have to be more specific. What approach? Why is it VEILED in debate? Why does what others think matter? how much is it supposed to matter? Do what others think about YOU matter to YOU?

If you have to ask, please do not ever refer to anyone on BB as 'stupid' again.

Assume I AM stupid and tell me. I think you can't. And are you not being a hypocrit by rebuking me for implying people are stupid while you yourself imply I am stupid?

Hello?

What hypocrisy.

Doubt all you like, the people I deal with in my day to day life and especially in my church are respectful. The same cannot be said of you

Yes, it can be said of me.

I guarantee you wouldn't. Never would get past my wife

That is who I would probably have to deal with, isn't it?

From the likes of you, true. Means nothing to be honest.

I do not care if you count it meaningful or not. I could not care less.

How many millions of people hate Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reily or James Dobson or John MacArthur etc....

Who cares how many people you can accumulate to support your claims? I cannot imagine anything more meaningless.

You have to show how the claims are valid.

If everybody who challenged any thinking of the age had to do so in such a way that he had no detractors NOBODY WOULD EVER SAY ANYTHING in the market place of ideas.

I cannot imagine a more empty argument than this silly little thing you keep repeating about how many people don't like me. Who CARES? I mean- really.

Not worthy a response. You realize how many fingers point back to you?

You are so often so ambiguous and veiled that I do not know what you mean. Here is one of those times.

 

[webdog]

As church MEMBERS?

Billions are not welcome. You can't be a member of our church if you are a homosexual, have not been baptized by immersion have not made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior or are just a snotty, insulting, disrespectful troublemaker.

As attenders- anyone who can participate respectfully and attend without being insulting or stirring controversy are welcome.

The irony :laugh:

You have to be more specific. What approach? Why is it VEILED in debate? Why does what others think matter? how much is it supposed to matter? Do what others think about YOU matter to YOU?

See 12strings reply

Assume I AM stupid and tell me. I think you can't. And are you not being a hypocrit by rebuking me for implying people are stupid while you yourself imply I am stupid?

Hello?

What hypocrisy.

Asking why I wouldn't talk to someone in my church as I would my children reminds me of the quote 'better to keep ones mouth shut and thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt'.

That is who I would probably have to deal with, isn't it?

Not really, but I'm sure she would suffice. Those that bark the loudest usually tend to put their tails between their legs and whimper away.

I do not care if you count it meaningful or not. I could not care less.

How many millions of people hate Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reily or James Dobson or John MacArthur etc....

Who cares how many people you can accumulate to support your claims? I cannot imagine anything more meaningless.

You have to show how the claims are valid.

If everybody who challenged any thinking of the age had to do so in such a way that he had no detractors NOBODY WOULD EVER SAY ANYTHING in the market place of ideas.

I cannot imagine a more empty argument than this silly little thing you keep repeating about how many people don't like me. Who CARES? I mean- really.




You are so often so ambiguous and veiled that I do not know what you mean. Here is one of those times.

<insert Charlie Brown's teacher talking>

Is this the point where you send me a pm threatening a fight like a couple years ago? You might portray the scholarly, intellectual type trying to bring Gods truth to the world, but I see right through you. You are a cowardly, internet bully...the worst kind of cyber bully there is. Go back under your bridge.

 

[Luke2427]

You could be right, that it is present in some. But I'm convinced from the posts I have read that there are at least SOME who would agree with you on many points, except they honestly believe your caustic approach to not be helpful, or biblically called for, and who simply say so because it is what they believe, not because they want to fit in with everyone else who is saying so.



Thanks.



Absolutely right, but as you are fond of saying, God gave us other Christians to help us learn, and it would be foolish to ignore them. And so, if I were to begin a line of threads that nearly every other Christian who reads, regardless of theological position, believes to be promoting an unhelpful spirit...I would take that advice into consideration.




I'm not advocating not being direct. Directness is one of your good points.
I'm advocating not being rude.



I did consider your posts and arguments. I grant that the majority of your statements are correct, just that often the tone makes the message hard to see. You are, of course, correct that I want to be a people-pleaser, that I am self-righteous, and can find something in most people that makes me feel superior (although at the same time, I can also find something in every other person to envy...so with most people, I am both feeling superior to them and envying something about them at the same time). It is something I must constantly work against. I don't believe, however, that finding someone who is saying stupid, or untrue things, and being as mean as possible to them is the way to combat my own self-righteousness and people-pleasing.

That is all I ask.

Thank you.

Only one caveat- there is a time to take people who are well nigh invincible in their arrogance and rebuke them sharply that their mouths may be stopped.

When people say things like "I don't CARE what the entire history of the Christian church thinks, GOD SPEAKS TO ME"

When people say nonsense like "God is so sovereign over all that he is not sovereign over most things that happen on a day to day basis and he is so omniscient that he he does not know the exact future that will unfold"

When people who don't know hermeneutics from Herman Munster go around taking passages TOTALLY out of context and making them say all sorts of terrible things

etc, etc, etc....

And they will not listen to reason but go on spewing this nonsense, you don't play ring around the roses with them.

You don't insult them personally, mind you, but you do say, "This idea is HORRIBLE and DANGEROUS and here is why..." You do say, "Your hermeneutic is HORRIFICALLY flawed or altogether non-existent and before you go around spreading this infection you call bible doctrine, you need to learn how to interpret Scripture."

You do say, "There is a safety in the multitude of counselors and that multitude consists not just of witnesses living but those who've gone on before (this protects against faddishness)- and if you do not care that your ideas have already been hashed out by greater Christian men than yourself, and you don't care WHAT those men have thought- then yes, STUDY HISTORY OR SHUT UP. You are too dangerously ignorant to be allowed to speak unchecked."

 

[Luke2427]

The irony :laugh:

How so?

Are you making the mistake of thinking that church and baptistboard should be handled the exact same way again?

How is it ironic? Do tell.

See 12strings reply

Then I take it you cannot support your own claim.

Asking why I wouldn't talk to someone in my church as I would my children reminds me of the quote 'better to keep ones mouth shut and thought a fool than open it and remove all doubt'.

How so?

How is it similar?

Do you think you SHOULD talk to fellow church members the exact same way you talk to your children when they are rebellious.

Do you speak firmly to other church members and say, "You will OBEY ME. You will do what I tell you to do when I tell you to do it and you will do it with a smile on your face or you will not watch television for a month."

Do you do that?

How is the saying quoted above applicable.

Specifics please. I know this will be a new thing for you. I know you'd rather drive-by post. But discussion requires specifics. Can you do it?

Not really, but I'm sure she would suffice. Those that bark the loudest usually tend to put their tails between their legs and whimper away.

I'm up for it if you are.

<insert Charlie Brown's teacher talking>

Yes, you are a BEACON of warm Christianity that lights the way for all of us. Statements like these make your capacity to rebuke people for being insulting SO MUCH MORE SENSIBLE AND CONSISTENT.

Is this the point where you send me a pm threatening a fight like a couple years ago?

I did no such thing. Try and be honest. You said this same crud you are saying here claiming I would not be so blunt to your face and I invited you to try me.

Be honest.

You might portray the scholarly, intellectual type trying to bring Gods truth to the world, but I see right through you. You are a cowardly, internet bully...the worst kind of cyber bully there is. Go back under your bridge.

Ah... more warmth from Webdog. This certainly bolsters your rebuke about me being so harsh and direct.

Thank you for lighting the way and for being so consistent and non-hypocritcal.

You have truly been a blessing.

Do you see everyone? This proves the op.

Let's not pretend that any of us have the capacity to lecture anyone else on civility in debate.

Let's just face the facts that we are ALL plagued with an Adamic nature and we ALL do this when it suits us.

 

[Arbo]

Would somebody please point out what theology is being discussed in this thread?

Why is this.....thing allowed to go on? C'mon mods, shut it down!

:thumbsup: This series of threads are nothing more than attempts to pick fights.

 

[Luke2427]

:thumbsup: This series of threads are nothing more than attempts to pick fights.

de·bate
[dih-beyt] Show IPA noun, verb, de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing.
noun
1.
a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
2.
a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
3.
deliberation; consideration.
4.
Archaic. strife; contention.
verb (used without object)
5.
to engage in argument or discussion, as in a legislative or public assembly: When we left, the men were still debating.
6.
to participate in a formal debate.
7.
to deliberate; consider: I debated with myself whether to tell them the truth or not.
8.
Obsolete . to fight; quarrel.

Can you explain how these threads violate the definition above?

 

[webdog]

Me - Is this the point where you send me a pm threatening a fight like a couple years ago?

Luke - I did no such thing. Try and be honest. You said this same crud you are saying here claiming I would not be so blunt to your face and I invited you to try me.

Be honest.

Yeah, I think we see EXACTLY who is honest. You make one horrible liar.

 

[Luke2427]

Me - Is this the point where you send me a pm threatening a fight like a couple years ago?

Luke - I did no such thing. Try and be honest. You said this same crud you are saying here claiming I would not be so blunt to your face and I invited you to try me.

Be honest.

Yeah, I think we see EXACTLY who is honest. You make one horrible liar.

So let me get this straight. You entered this thread to point out that I am wrong for the way I talk to people on here while calling me a liar, a coward, stupid and a fake?

HILARIOUS!!!!:laugh:

Absolutely HILARIOUS!

Every post you put up further proves my point.

Thank you. I have enjoyed this exchange with you more than any we've ever had.

 

[webdog]

So let me get this straight. You entered this thread to point out that I am wrong for the way I talk to people on here while calling me a liar, a coward, stupid and a fake?

HILARIOUS!!!!:laugh:

Absolutely HILARIOUS!

Every post you put up further proves my point.

Thank you. I have enjoyed this exchange with you more than any we've ever had.

I entered this thread to point out along with everyone else your methods are ridiculous, but you are the only one who doesn't get it. At any rate, the way I interact with you should be commended by you, isn't this the very point you are trying to make thread after thread...that its perfectly 'logical' and biblical to engage each other in this manner? The fact is you are neither here to engage in debate or educate, you are here to merely spew chunks.

 

[sag38]

If he acted this arrogantly with his congregation like he does here he'd be out on his can and rightfully so. I certainly hope he doesn't treat his wife or child this way. God help them if he does.

 

[Luke2427]

I entered this thread to point out along with everyone else your methods are ridiculous,

By employing the same methods.

You prove my point.

but you are the only one who doesn't get it. At any rate, the way I interact with you should be commended by you, isn't this the very point you are trying to make thread after thread...

Yes, but I am the one saying that it is ok. Are you not saying that it is wrong?

Does that not make you a hypocrite?

that its perfectly 'logical' and biblical to engage each other in this manner? The fact is you are neither here to engage in debate or educate, you are here to merely spew chunks.

Claim without warrant.

Par for the course with Webdog.

 

[Luke2427]

If he acted this arrogantly with his congregation like he does here he'd be out on his can and rightfully so. I certainly hope he doesn't treat his wife or child this way. God help them if he does.

What hypocrisy.

Webdog has called me a liar, a fake, a coward and everything else and you rebuke ME???

Are you not being a hypocrite for doing so?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You guys gotta stop meeting like this...your wives are gonna get jealous! :tongue3:

 

[Amy.G]

What is the purpose of this thread other than to argue?

 

[Arbo]

Can you explain how these threads violate the definition above?

A better question, I think, would be to ask yourself what your motivation for starting this type of thread is: discussion of doctrine and theology with (presumably) your brethren or fighting with them.

The evidence shown by numerous posts that you have made suggests that you have a greater interest in fighting with than fellowshipping with your brothers in Christ.

Each of us has a reputation, and for the most part we are responsible for our own. What do you think yours is on the BB?

I say these things as kindly as I can.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What hypocrisy.

Webdog has called me a liar, a fake, a coward and everything else and you rebuke ME???

Are you not being a hypocrite for doing so?

What did I tell you about hypocracy. And remember we all wallow in it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A better question, I think, would be to ask yourself what your motivation for starting this type of thread is: discussion of doctrine and theology with (presumably) your brethren or fighting with them.

The evidence shown by numerous posts that you have made suggests that you have a greater interest in fighting with than fellowshipping with your brothers in Christ.

Each of us has a reputation, and for the most part we are responsible for our own. What do you think yours is on the BB?

I say these things as kindly as I can.

Before you go down that road, I hope you remember your dealings with a brother.