Semi-Calvinism

[Agent47]

So mercy is shown on the innocent (but born in sin)?

Is this mercy and love extended to those who are similarly innocent in that they are born,live and die without ever hearing the glorious gospel? If not, what is the functional difference between a dead infant and an 'unreached' adult?

What about the 'called but not drawn' class who still perish? Can we say that no mercy nor love was extended towards them? The loving and merciful God will not as much as throw a lifeline to these yet ONLY He can save them

Because He is a merciful and loving God?

 

[Agent47]

Yes we are not perfect before we sin (we are born/conceived imperfect) but are we condemned before we sin? If yes, then mere 'sin inclination' is punishable by eternal damnation.

And if 'sin inclination' attracts eternal damnation, it is sin in itself...which is what Catholicism Original Sin is all about.

But Romans is clear; 'wages of sin is death'. Sin is what is punishable not 'inclination to sin'

We are not perfect beings until we commit that first sin. We sin because that is our inclination from birth.

 

[TCassidy]

Is this mercy and love extended to those who are similarly innocent in that they are born,live and die without ever hearing the glorious gospel?

Do you really care about those who have never heard the Gospel or are you just using them to make points in your argument.

If you really care for them, when are you leaving for the mission field?

And, of course, no competent person who reaches adulthood is "innocent." You are aware of "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" right?

 

[Agent47]

Do you really care about those who have never heard the Gospel or are you just using them to make points in your argument.

If you really care for them, when are you leaving for the mission field?

Yes I do, which is why all I do is evangelism and apologetics outside my day job.

My motives notwithstanding, you can't run away from the fact that many live and die unreached

And, of course, no competent person who reaches adulthood is "innocent." You are aware of "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" right?

They are not innocent because they have yet to sin but rather because they can't receive a gospel they have never heard, just as an infant.

Now, since 'all have sinned', that dead foetus is as a wretch as the adult unreached, which made me wonder whether the mercy extended to one set of wretch (infants) is availed to the other

 

[TCassidy]

They are not innocent because they have yet to sin but rather because they can't receive a gospel they have never heard, just as an infant.

They are not innocent. What part of that can't you understand? How can you claim sinlessness for any adult?

Now, since 'all have sinned', that dead foetus is as a wretch as the adult unreached, which made me wonder whether the mercy extended to one set of wretch (infants) is availed to the other

Are you really trying to say Paul was addressing unborn children when he said "all have sinned?" Are you really that desperate?

 

[TCassidy]

Yes I do, which is why all I do is evangelism and apologetics outside my day job.

Quit your job. Serve God full time. Unless money is more important to you than the souls of men and women, boys and girls?

 

[Agent47]

They are not innocent. What part of that can't you understand? How can you claim sinlessness for any adult?

Are infants sinless?

Are you really trying to say Paul was addressing unborn children when he said "all have sinned?" Are you really that desperate?

You are overly eager to misunderstand. Tell me. Are infants sinless or are they conceived/born full of sin?

 

[Agent47]

The smartest thing I've heard in decades

Quit your job. Serve God full time. Unless money is more important to you than the souls of men and women, boys and girls?

 

[JonC]

Yes we are not perfect before we sin (we are born/conceived imperfect) but are we condemned before we sin? If yes, then mere 'sin inclination' is punishable by eternal damnation.

And if 'sin inclination' attracts eternal damnation, it is sin in itself...which is what Catholicism Original Sin is all about.

But Romans is clear; 'wages of sin is death'. Sin is what is punishable not 'inclination to sin'

You are separating what is not separated in Scripture, nor in life. We sin because we have sinful natures. Whether you like it or not, Scripture teaches that all men share the curse, this 'sin inclination' as you put it. And all men will suffer the consequences of this curse, which is death. Jesus was the only man without sin, yet His death was not apart from this curse. He became fully man and experienced what it is to be fully human - to include death. The reason Jesus was considered "cursed" (the reason given in Scripture) is not that He bore our sins (although this is true) but that He was hung on a tree. He set aside that glory to become man and to take on both humanity and the curse - He became a curse for us.

I don't know if you realize this, but the idea that men are separated from their sin (love the sinner, hate the sin) is foreign to Scripture. Sin is linked directly to sinfulness and the person. Your error here is dividing the two. The Canons of Dort don't - they state that God would be just to condemn men based only on their sinfulness....their imperfect natures inclined away from Him....but then they conclude in that very article that all have sinned. You are taking apart bits and pieces to construct an argument.

 

[TCassidy]

Are infants sinless?


You are overly eager to misunderstand. Tell me. Are infants sinless or are they conceived/born full of sin?

Now pay close attention. I will say this one more time. And if you fail to get it this time I will not waste any more time on someone who is willfully ignorant.

A child is born with a sin nature that will, eventually, result in that child committing sins against God.

By way of illustration: I was born an American Citizen, with all the rights and privileges of an American Citizen. However, I never cast a vote in a government election until I was 21 (I predate the 26th amendment). Why not? I was considered too young to understand the consequences of my actions.

A baby is born with a sin nature, but is too young to understand the consequences of his actions. But one day he comes to the point he does understand and that is when, as Paul says, "sin revived and I died." Until then there was no knowledge/understanding of sin, so there was no imputation of sin to the child.

Got it now?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[MB]

And right here we see the problem illustrated. Article 1 does not say "all chose to sin Adam's sin." It says "As all men have sinned in Adam." There is a big difference between choosing to sin the sin of Adam and being born under the federal headship of Adam.

Scripture please.

 

[MB]

Do you really care about those who have never heard the Gospel or are you just using them to make points in your argument.

If you really care for them, when are you leaving for the mission field?

And, of course, no competent person who reaches adulthood is "innocent." You are aware of "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" right?

Yes their is severally retarded are innocent at adult hood and anyone who doesn't understand right from wrong. I would still like to see Adam's sin applied to man in scripture/
MB

 

[MB]

Jon C;
You Said; [QUOTE} No, they actually derived their doctrines from Scripture…i.e., the Word of God…although you disagree with their interpretations, conclusions, and/or application. You are wrong to state that Calvinists get their beliefs from men instead of God just as they would be wrong to state the same of you.[/QUOTE]
Well here you go You think I was wrong when I wrote what you are replying to. Please show me where in scripture that it says men are totally depraved. It's obvious to me not all men are totally depraved. Oh I've read where some men were evil continually but not all men. Yet this was before the flood and those men were destroyed. Yet Calvinist apply this to them selves.. Show me with scripture where there is just one Gentile in the Bible who is elect. Don't tel us Paul called them that because he was in another country.. Hewas speaking to jews who were trying to convert the world. Show me where limited atonement is in the Bible. Show me where it says that men cannot resist God, then yes last of all show me where Saints are to persevere. Salvation is free we do not have to persevere to maintain it. It's there whether we work or not.
I've read quite a bit of the institutes. I suppose Calvin didn't understand Calvinism either.

Stop trying to make your own view of what these doctrines say because I take them literally just like every thing I read. None of these things come from scripture they come from men. If they come from scripture them look at scripture as a whole instead of a few verses at a time

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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