Semi Pelagianism

[MB]

Does the Holy Spirit grant faith before, after, or similtaneous with indwelling?

Because my understanding is that there is NO REGENERATION unless a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and there is no indwelling without faith.

I believe the Bible myself and it does not say a man must be indwelt by the Spirit first before regeneration.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

After being drawn we listen to the preacher

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

We are first drawn to Him. We listen to His word which causes us to have faith.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Therefore faith is not the gift but faith is being convinced by the Holy Spirit while listening to God's word being preached. Then confession is made and we are saved.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. .

(BTW, I for my part believe that the Holy Spirit grants faith BEFORE indwelling/regeneration. See, I believe that it is the Spirit that grants faith, but do not confuse "drawing/granting faith" with "regeneration". )

So can we put aside the notion that I believe that saving faith is something that we are sufficient in ourselves to possess. Because I don't.

I never heard of such faith. Faith is received by hearing God's word. The Holy Spirit cannot indwell a man while he is lost. Indwelling comes after confession of Jesus as Lord of our lives. Regeneration comes after confession of Jesus.as Lord.
MB
MB

 

[MB]

I'd change "I can't" to "I won't" and I think you'd have it (it seems to me Scripture indicated we can't because we are unwilling, and God draws some as an expression of grace ).

Don't you believe God can Convince a natural man He is who He says He is?. You know the Holy Spirit and God are the same and. the Holy Spirit works on the hearts of everyone who comes to Christ. Not to regenerate them first but. to convince them or give them the faith they need by doing so. There is no Salvation until the man confesses Jesus as Lord over their lives. Don't let anyone fool you there is nothing God cannot do with any man when ever He so desires to
MB.

 

[JonShaff]

I'd change "I can't" to "I won't" and I think you'd have it (it seems to me Scripture indicated we can't because we are unwilling, and God draws some as an expression of grace ).

Wait...even if the person said "I won't" they still weren't given the ABILITY. that's like telling a car to turn into a helicopter, even if it didn't want to (stick with me) it didn't have the ability to be a helicopter to begin with...so the demand is unwarranted and ILLOGICAL.

 

[JonC]

Don't you believe God can Convince a natural man He is who He says He is?. You know the Holy Spirit and God are the same and. the Holy Spirit works on the hearts of everyone who comes to Christ. Not to regenerate them first but. to convince them or give them the faith they need by doing so. There is no Salvation until the man confesses Jesus as Lord over their lives. Don't let anyone fool you there is nothing God cannot do with any man when ever He so desires to
MB.

That is what God does. He convinces a natural sinner to repent. In other words, the natural sinner's will is changed by God, turned to God. Surely you are not implying this act of God to change the natural sinner's will has no effect.

 

[JonC]

Wait...even if the person said "I won't" they still weren't given the ABILITY. that's like telling a car to turn into a helicopter, even if it didn't want to (stick with me) it didn't have the ability to be a helicopter to begin with...so the demand is unwarranted and ILLOGICAL.

No, it is not illogical at all. Man's inability is his unwillingnes. Were he willing he would find himself able.

 

[JonShaff]

No, it is not illogical at all. Man's inability is his unwillingnes. Were he willing he would find himself able.

It is absolutely illogical. How did you become willing to repent?

It is particularly illogical because unwillingness IS NOT ABSOLUTE in any other regard.

 

[JonShaff]

"Unwillingness is his inability"- let's take the train to the station.

At one time I was unwilling to do this or to that. Then my mind changed and I decided that I'd rather do this or do that. Clearly my "unwillingness" is not final. However, in your logic (not logical at all) unwillingness is final (although it's not in any other regard) to back up your claim that unwillingness is equal to inability, when that is never an absolute or final reality in any usage of the term or application of its reality. So your sentiment is illogical.

 

[TCassidy]

How did you become willing to repent?

God regenerated my sin sick soul and enabled me to repent, made me willing to repent, and gave me faith to believe and obey.

 

[JonC]

It is absolutely illogical. How did you become willing to repent?

It is particularly illogical because unwillingness IS NOT ABSOLUTE in any other regard.

Sure it is. Let's take it to the train station - Jesus was unwilling to disobey the Father. This was absolute.

But more to the point is that you are playing responses off your caricature of Calvinism and not Calvinism itself, and in the process you are becoming that straw-man you are fighting against.

What you are suggesting is that man is able to come to God willingly while he is still unwilling to come to God. And that makes absolutely no sense at all. What you are rejecting is the Calvinistic (and biblical truth) that man is unable to come to God because man is unwilling to come to God. A man will never be saved while he is yet unwilling to be saved….it is impossible.

Unless you are advocating that God saves man while he is yet unwilling to be saved...this is the only way an unwilling man is also able to be saved - if God saves while we are yet unwilling to be saved (something Calvinism and Scripture denies). Is that your position?

 

[JonShaff]

Sure it is. Let's take it to the train station - Jesus was unwilling to disobey the Father. This was absolute.

But more to the point is that you are playing responses off your caricature of Calvinism and not Calvinism itself, and in the process you are becoming that straw-man you are fighting against.

What you are suggesting is that man is able to come to God willingly while he is still unwilling to come to God. And that makes absolutely no sense at all. What you are rejecting is the Calvinistic (and biblical truth) that man is unable to come to God because man is unwilling to come to God. A man will never be saved while he is yet unwilling to be saved….it is impossible.

Unless you are advocating that God saves man while he is yet unwilling to be saved...this is the only way an unwilling man is also able to be saved - if God saves while we are yet unwilling to be saved (something Calvinism and Scripture denies). Is that your position?

No no, Jesus WAS NOT ABLE TO DISOBEY THE FATHER.

let's deal with that first. Then we can move on.

 

[JonShaff]

Got regenerated my sin sick soul and enabled me to repent, made me willing to repent, and gave me faith to believe and obey.

So your soul was unable to repent, got it.

 

[JonShaff]

If someone is "unwilling" it is also implied that they are able to do what they are unwilling to do.

 

[JonShaff]

Oh I believe that God gifts us with the ability to repent...

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I don't believe you have to be regenerated before you believe.

 

[TCassidy]

So your soul was unable to repent, got it.

Correct. As a natural man my heart was wicked, cold, and unbelieving. My soul was the enemy of God. Not only wouldn't I accept and receive the things of God, I couldn't do so.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[JonC]

No no, Jesus WAS NOT ABLE TO DISOBEY THE FATHER.

let's deal with that first. Then we can move on.

Sure. Was Jesus unable to disobey the Father because of his nature (because of His divine will) or because He lacked the ability (because He, unlike God, lacked omnipotence)?

I believe that Jesus is God, and that Jesus is omnipotent. His obedience did not, therefore, mark a lack of ability but rather it highlighted His absolute divine will. In fact, Scripture tells us that this obedience was a submission (a matter of the will, not a lack of ability). So Jesus being unable to disobey the Father was, as Scripture testifies, a matter of the divine will - not a lack of ability.

Can we move on to the next one? I want to know if you believe man is able to be unwillingly saved. In your understanding, does God work that way?

 

[JonShaff]

Correct. As a natural man my heart was wicked, cold, and unbelieving. My soul was the enemy of God. Not only wouldn't I accept and receive the things of God, I couldn't do so.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Let me connect the dots for you

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Notice it says, "lest the light of the Gospel", NOT the act of REGENERATION.

 

[JonShaff]

Sure. Was Jesus unable to disobey the Father because of his nature (because of His divine will) or because He lacked the ability (because He, unlike God, lacked omnipotence)?

I believe that Jesus is God, and that Jesus is omnipotent. His obedience did not, therefore, mark a lack of ability but rather it highlighted His absolute divine will. In fact, Scripture tells us that this obedience was a submission (a matter of the will, not a lack of ability). So Jesus being unable to disobey the Father was, as Scripture testifies, a matter of the divine will - not a lack of ability.

Can we move on to the next one? I want to know if you believe man is able to be unwillingly saved. In your understanding, does God work that way?

LoL, no a person isn't going to be unwillingly saved.

 

[JonC]

LoL, no a person isn't going to be unwillingly saved.

Why not? You were just arguing against the Calvinistic position men are unable to be saved because they are unwilling. Now you are saying that to be saved the dude has to be willing? Which is it?

 

[TCassidy]

Notice it says, "lest the light of the Gospel", NOT the act of REGENERATION.

Uh, you are aware that the Gospel is the good news of being "born again" or "regenerated?" Right?

 

[JonShaff]

Why not? You were just arguing against the Calvinistic position men are unable to be saved because they are unwilling. Now you are saying that to be saved the dude has to be willing? Which is it?

Unwilling but able can eventually turn into willing and able.

Unwilling and unable will never have a person's circumstance change.

I don't believe regeneration is what enables faith.

I believe faith precedes regeneration.