Semi-Pelagianism

[Moriah]

Tell us, DHK, the paralytic man, which sin was he forgiven for, one sin or all his sins?

Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

 

[DHK]

Tell us, DHK, the paralytic man, which sin was he forgiven for, one sin or all his sins?

Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Answer my question first. Stop avoiding my posts.

 

[Moriah]

Forgiveness and repentance are not the same thing.

Where in the NT does it command one to repent of all their sin? Where does it say that Moriah?

Therefore, you now want us to believe we have forgiveness of sins without being sorry for our sins. You call yourself a messenger of the Bible. I do not think so.

When Jesus says to say, “Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation. ’” ARE YOU GOING TO PRETEND YOU DID NOT SEE THAT? Maybe you cannot see.

 

[DHK]

Therefore, you now want us to believe we have forgiveness of sins without being sorry for our sins. You call yourself a messenger of the Bible. I do not think so.

When Jesus says to say, “Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation. ’” ARE YOU GOING TO PRETEND YOU DID NOT SEE THAT? Maybe you cannot see that.

You are like a J.W. that wants to jump all over the NT because you cannot answer the question asked you:

Show me in the NT, the command: Repent of all your sins.

1. Repentance and forgiveness are not the same; they are two different topics.
2. Repentance is not feeling sorry for your sins.
3. I don't believe you know what biblical repentance is.
4. You keep quoting verses that have to do with forgiveness and nothing to do with repentance. You avoid the topic or change it completely.

When are you going to answer the simple question that I have asked you repeatedly.

 

[Moriah]

You are like a J.W. that wants to jump all over the NT because you cannot answer the question asked you:

You think you are doing right for a moderator speaking to me like this?

Show me in the NT, the command: Repent of all your sins.

I have given you many scriptures that say repent of your SINS. You do not see it.

1. Repentance and forgiveness are not the same; they are two different topics.

You want all of us to believe that asking God to forgive us for all our sins is not repenting of our sins. If a person does not see the ludicrousness in that teaching, then what can they see.

2. Repentance is not feeling sorry for your sins.

Repentance is feeling sorry for our sins.

3. I don't believe you know what biblical repentance is.

You have proven you do not know what repentance is.

4. You keep quoting verses that have to do with forgiveness and nothing to do with repentance. You avoid the topic or change it completely.

Asking God to forgive us our sins is repentance.

When are you going to answer the simple question that I have asked you repeatedly.

I have answered you repeatedly, but you cannot see it.

 

[Moriah]

DHK,
If a wife tells her husband, “Please forgive me for cheating on you” do you think that means she is sorry for her sin and will stop, or that she is sorry and is going to keep having sex with other men? What is the confusing answer, and which is the logical answer to this question?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Are you trying to make us feel bad for being in a debate? No one is forcing you to be here.

What are you talking about? I started the thread, and I wanted debate.

 

[Moriah]

What are you talking about? I started the thread, and I wanted debate.

Glad to know that you approve of the "repetitive arguing," and that you were not speaking against it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tell us DHK. What does it mean to repent of ones sins?

"Unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

What I hear you 'implying/suggesting' is, Lord, please forgive me as I sin. I repent but I am still going to keep on sinning, daily as a matter of fact.

If you do not believe the verse above indicates repentance from all known sin, it would seem to me that you are implying/suggesting the following: Lord, forgive me of this particlar sin, but you surely understand I have to keep sinning on a daily basis don't you? I will not/cannot forsake and repent of all sin, or else I would be a HERETIC, and surely God you would not desire me to be a HERETIC would you?


DHK, I do trust you understand what 'implying/suggesting' means.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

HP: Of course I would disagree with the view that sanctification is the eradication of the sinful nature, but in practice, I find little to no disagreement with those of the Arminian persuasion concerning this issue that you are familiar with. Theologically I would disagree on how they get there and what it theoretically accomplishes, but 'practically' I see little to no difference in my belief with say that of the Nazarenes and many others of Arminian persuasions.

Sanctification is the great need of the church today. I know of one famous evangelist that at the end of his life in reflection said that if he had it all to do over again he would spend more time on the sanctification of the believer that on the salvation of the unbeliever. In reality to do so may well have saved some that started well from making shipwreck of the faith in the end.

Would you agree with these statements: "Perfection is the process of sanctification which is both an instantaneous and a progressive work of grace. It may also be called entire sanctification, in which the heart of the believer is cleansed from inbred sin by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Christian perfection, according to Wesley, is “purity of intention, dedicating all the life to God” and “the mind which was in Christ, enabling us to walk as Christ walked.” It is "loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves".[2] It is “a restoration not only to the favor, but likewise to the image of God,” our “being filled with the fullness of God."

From the Nazarene manual: "X. Entire Sanctification

13. We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.

Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as "Christian perfection," "perfect love," "heart purity," "the baptism with the Holy Spirit," "the fullness of the blessing," and "Christian holiness."

Please also, if you will, react here to this article: http://cbounds.blogspot.com/2006/05/what-is-entire-sanctification.html

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Glad to know that you approve of the "repetitive arguing," and that you were not speaking against it.

I've done quite a bit of it myself!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Michael: Would you agree with these statements: "Perfection is the process ...

Michael: From the Nazarene manual: "X. Entire Sanctification

13. We believe that entire .......

HP: Again, I would disagree on original sin as stated, but practically speaking I would say that is an excellent 'practical' description of sanctification of the believer overall.

How could one say they love God and desire any less?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Michael: Would you agree with these statements: "Perfection is the process ...



Michael: From the Nazarene manual: "X. Entire Sanctification

13. We believe that entire .......

HP: Again, I would disagree on original sin as stated, but practically speaking I would say that is an excellent 'practical' description of sanctification of the believer overall.

Concerning the article you mentioned, let is suffice to say that while I hold basically to the practical issues as described in the COTN manual, I would not agree with those individuals that would claim it is freedom from temptation. I do believe that for the most part, the lure of the flesh, sin and the word is so greatly diminished for those in a state of sanctification, that it might be rightfully said, IN A SENSE, temptation to break the bond between such a one and Christ would appear to be a thing of the past. Again that does NOT preclude temptation under extreme circumstances of being a real test to overcome. or that even one might, under such unusual and extreme temptation, even yield to sin.

These are my personal views, not that of any other. I speak for myself only as I have understanding of the issue.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Michael,
I don't know what you've read about AQUNIAS view of Attonment, however I will explain the Catholic view which is more based on Anselm which also might be misunderstood. Anselm suggest that the three prevailing views of the Church Fathers were more complimentary rather than Contradictory despite several theologians views. Therefore Attonment for the Catholic Begins with God's love rather than God's wrath. And the Attonment is tied in with Christ Incarnation. How this works is in recapulation. Ireaneus derives from St. Paul views Jesus as the representative of the entire human race. Just as in some what all men were present in Adam and in some respect involved (I can't think of a better word for know) in Adam's sin with all its consiquences. We can be participate in Jesus Death and resurrection and victory over sin and death. Thus Jesus acts on man's behalf and in his stead thus claiming victory for those who belong to him. Thus Jesus Claims Solidarity with us.

That is the generality of the Catholic view.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

HP: Again, I would disagree on original sin as stated, but practically speaking I would say that is an excellent 'practical' description of sanctification of the believer overall.

Concerning the article you mentioned, let is suffice to say that while I hold basically to the practical issues as described in the COTN manual, I would not agree with those individuals that would claim it is freedom from temptation. I do believe that for the most part, the lure of the flesh, sin and the word is so greatly diminished for those in a state of sanctification, that it might be rightfully said, IN A SENSE, temptation to break the bond between such a one and Christ would appear to be a thing of the past. Again that does NOT preclude temptation under extreme circumstances of being a real test to overcome. or that even one might, under such unusual and extreme temptation, even yield to sin.

These are my personal views, not that of any other. I speak for myself only as I have understanding of the issue.

Thank you for your responses; I appreciate it.

In the article, I think the only valid point is his first point -- point A. But I believe this happens when we first come to faith; I don't believe it is a second work of grace sometime after regeneration.

I think this one thing alone would keep me out of the Holiness churches.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael,
I don't know what you've read about AQUNIAS view of Attonment, however I will explain the Catholic view which is more based on Anselm which also might be misunderstood. Anselm suggest that the three prevailing views of the Church Fathers were more complimentary rather than Contradictory despite several theologians views. Therefore Attonment for the Catholic Begins with God's love rather than God's wrath. And the Attonment is tied in with Christ Incarnation. How this works is in recapulation. Ireaneus derives from St. Paul views Jesus as the representative of the entire human race. Just as in some what all men were present in Adam and in some respect involved (I can't think of a better word for know) in Adam's sin with all its consiquences. We can be participate in Jesus Death and resurrection and victory over sin and death. Thus Jesus acts on man's behalf and in his stead thus claiming victory for those who belong to him. Thus Jesus Claims Solidarity with us.

That is the generality of the Catholic view.

I was reading the following article; it begins with Anselm's view and then talks about Aquinas's view. I was much more familiar with Anselm's view, and I much prefer it over that of Aquinas, but I still disagree with the Satisfaction Theory overall.

I like and agree with what you presented, though.

 

[DHK]

DHK,
If a wife tells her husband, “Please forgive me for cheating on you” do you think that means she is sorry for her sin and will stop, or that she is sorry and is going to keep having sex with other men? What is the confusing answer, and which is the logical answer to this question?

Your post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge concerning repentance. In fact it doesn't even mention repentance.
1. Repentance is not sorrow for sin. Judas Iscariot was sorry for his sin, went out and hung himself. But he wasn't saved. Being sorry for your sin won't save you (or any person).
2. "Please forgive me," is talking about forgiveness not repentance.
3. "means she is sorry for her sin" is speaking of sorrow, not repentance.

What is the logical answer?
The logical answer is: You don't have a clue about repentance and never said one word about it.

 

[Moriah]

Your post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge concerning repentance. In fact it doesn't even mention repentance.

Asking for forgiveness is repentance. I not only gave you scripture about asking for forgiveness, I gave you scripture about repenting of SINS. That is plural, repenting of SINS. DHK, can you control yourself from the personal attack? It is not needed for debate.

1. Repentance is not sorrow for sin. Judas Iscariot was sorry for his sin, went out and hung himself. But he wasn't saved. Being sorry for your sin won't save you (or any person).

Repentance is being sorry for your sins. Try Googling the definition of repent. You using Judas as an example to tell others that being sorry for your sins mean nothing is bizarre in the least. It is damaging for the person seeking God. Maybe Judas did not believe God could forgive him. We must believe that we are forgiven.

2. "Please forgive me," is talking about forgiveness not repentance.

Again, you not knowing "please forgive me" is repentance is great error.

3. "means she is sorry for her sin" is speaking of sorrow, not repentance.
What is the logical answer?
The logical answer is: You don't have a clue about repentance and never said one word about it.

The only answer is that you give an excellent example of someone whose righteous act is as a filthy rag. A person who sinned and said, “Forgive me,” but who has no intent to stop the sin is not sorry. Their righteous act of asking for forgiveness is as a filthy rag. For you to teach that asking for forgiveness is not repenting is to teach falseness and to teach how to be a filthy rag.

 

[DHK]

You think you are doing right for a moderator speaking to me like this?

Why not? I made a comparison. J.W.'s hop all over the place. They don't like to stick to one question. Neither do you. Apparently you don't like comparisons either.

I have given you many scriptures that say repent of your SINS. You do not see it.

No, you have not given me one, especially one that says one must "repent of all your sins." A clue: There isn't one.

You want all of us to believe that asking God to forgive us for all our sins is not repenting of our sins. If a person does not see the ludicrousness in that teaching, then what can they see.

I have a grandson that is less than three years old that can see the difference between objects and concepts. What is wrong here?

When I ask about repentance you give me forgiveness.
When I ask for green you give me blue.
When I ask for pork you give beef.
When I ask for grass you give concrete.

IOW, the subject is repentance. Do you know how to stay there?

Repentance is feeling sorry for our sins.

Judas was sorry for his sins and went to hell.

Asking God to forgive us our sins is repentance.

I was a Catholic for 20 years and asked God to forgive my sins many times. That had nothing to do with repentance; neither did it save me.

I have answered you repeatedly, but you cannot see it.

You have never given one verse concerning repentance, especially one that says: "repent of all your sins."

 

[Moriah]

You have never given one verse concerning repentance, especially one that says: "repent of all your sins."

What you say is almost laughable, if it were not so full of error.

I have given you many scriptures that say repent of your SINS. For you to throw in that the Bible does not say ALL of your sins is a creepy debate tactic of confusion. Since you do not except the scriptures that I gave that say repent of your sins, and you claim that does not mean ALL your sins, then how many sins do you claim is YOUR SINS if not all of them.