Semi-Pelagianism

[Moriah]

Please don't take my words out of context or misquote me. That is not ethical, and it is sin.

You accusing me of saying something that you did not say is sin.

The first part is true. When a Christian sins he needs to repent of his sin. This is needs to be a daily practice with every sin. Every day one needs to come to the Lord and begin his devotions with prayer, starting with confession of sin. I have never said that a Christian can never give up any sin.

You said a person could go through life and never stop any sin and still be saved. Now stop making things up and twisting my words.

A Christian can give up any sin. There is no sin that a Christian cannot give up. Why shouldn't he be able to give up sin? Your accusation is ludicrous. However, if he lapses into the same sin again it doesn't mean he loses his salvation. There are some sins that we do again and again that are almost impossible to completely abstain from: lying, coveting, and as far as you are concerned "misrepresenting others on this board which is slander."

You said a Christian could not lose his salvation even if he never gives up any sin. So stop with your little sermon.

1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
--I hope you are not a deacon's wife! :laugh:

Who knows what you are talking about now?

"Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures..."
The Scripture says: Isa.64:6 "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..."
It is the self-righteousness of man that is as filthy rags in the sight of God. That is what the verse specifically says. Accept it.

That scripture is about the Jews. I would think it could also go for Christians that do not give up any sins.

That puts your own salvation into question.
Are you going to heaven because you do good? Because you love your brother, and don't murder. That is what you just said.

Poppycock!!
Some of those that are near and dear to me practiced that all of their lives; and then they died and went to hell because they trusted in their religion and not in Christ.

What in the world are you talking about now? Who said anything about Jesus saving people who do not believe in him? You are greatly confused.

You have just described a hellish religion of works, not in the biblical message of salvation in Christ by grace through faith and not of works.

You are going against the Word of God.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
John 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
John 16:27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
1 John 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

I am going to heaven because I clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. When Christ looks down upon me he does not see the sinful me, he sees his robe of righteousness that covers all my sin. That is the righteousness that is so much greater than the righteousness of the Pharisees. Unless you have that righteousness, that righteousness that only comes from Christ, you can in no wise enter into the kingdom of God. I hope you do. I sincerely hope that you have the righteousness of Jesus Christ. That is the only righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees, and the only righteousness that God accepts.
It is if it is through your own righteousness. There have been many false professions made; they have been made for various reasons, some of which because in their own heart they still thought they were good enough. Their own self-righteousness got in the way.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “the Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

 

[Moriah]

Have you repented of lying and never lied again?
Have you repented of misrepresenting others or what they have said on this board, and have never done it again?
Have you repented of not having control of your emotions and have never done it again?
Have you coveted more than one time in your life?
Have you repented of having evil thoughts, and it has never happened again?
What about having devotions? A consistent prayer life? Giving thanks always? Pray without ceasing?

As the accuser accusing, that is what you are doing.

 

[Moriah]

HP,

I love reading the truth you speak.
Professing Christians need to get in the race as if they are running a race. Some people put more effort into losing weight on a treadmill than they do with getting sin out of their life.
Do you ever see people train for physical strength, or a boxing match, or race? Christians need to tackle sin in their lives like that if they are having a hard time giving something up.
Some things were really much easier to give up than others were, but some things are more difficult for us.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

1 Corinthians 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

 

[DHK]

You accusing me of saying something that you did not say is sin.

Yes. It is sin to accuse me of saying something I didn't say. That is what you did. It is called slander.

You said a person could go through life and never stop any sin and still be saved. Now stop making things up and twisting my words.

Quote me or stop lying.

You said a Christian could not lose his salvation even if he never gives up any sin. So stop with your little sermon.

Again, quote me or stop your lying. If you don't quote me you are simply taking things out of context, putting words into my mouth that I didn't say.

Did you give up drinking on Friday?

Who knows what you are talking about now?

I quoted a verse that uses the very word "slanderer," something that you are doing right now. A condition for a deacon's wife is that she not be a slanderer. Yet you are being one.

That scripture is about the Jews. I would think it could also go for Christians that do not give up any sins.

That Scripture is applicable to all mankind. Do you know what else is found in Isaiah?
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
That is Isa.53:6. Do you deny it has any relevance for us also. It also was written for the Jews.

That puts your own salvation into question.
Are you going to heaven because you do good? Because you love your brother, and don't murder. That is what you just said.

No, that is what you said about righteousness. If that is what your righteousness is, then you don't have a chance of getting into heaven. Only with the righteousness of Jesus Christ can one enter into heaven; not with the self-righteousness of good works as you have mentioned.

What in the world are you talking about now? Who said anything about Jesus saving people who do not believe in him? You are greatly confused.

Keep focused. What do you think Jesus meant when he said:
"Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees you can in no wise enter into the kingdom of God."
Salvation is through Christ, not one's own righteousness as you posted. You claimed it was through loving your brother and not murdering people.

You are going against the Word of God.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
John 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
John 16:27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
1 John 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

You can quote all the Scripture you want. But salvation is through Christ and Christ alone. It is not through obedience or works. And that is what you are posting. It is through Christ and his sacrificial work, accepting that by grace through faith, and not of works; not of obedience.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “the Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Your Scripture is irrelevant to the subject. If you do not have the righteousness of Christ you can in no wise enter into the kingdom of God. It is that simple. Keeping commands will not get you there. You must have the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

[DHK]

As the accuser accusing, that is what you are doing.

Questions are not accusations. Perhaps you should answer the same questions.

 

[Moriah]

DHK is at that place again, where he falsely accuses others of being liars and slanderers. Therefore, I will be back later and discuss with others that come on.

 

[DHK]

DHK is at that place again, where he falsely accuses others of being liars and slanderers. Therefore, I will be back later and discuss with others that come on.

If you don't want to be accused of such you must quote what I say. Use the quote function. Otherwise you are simply quoting what you think I said, which all too often is wrong.

 

[Moriah]

If you don't want to be accused of such you must quote what I say. Use the quote function. Otherwise you are simply quoting what you think I said, which all too often is wrong.

This, what you say right here, is exactly what I am talking about. You resort to repeating that, and calling others liars. I have not said anything that you said that you have not.

Again, this is where I will not continue debating with DHK. I have been through this with him many times.

I am signing off here for now…

God bless all who want to obey Jesus’ commands.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah, DHK places the words of others in his own words just as do all of us. That is not slander in the least. if it was, DHK would be as great a slanderer as anyone he accuses.

Anytime ones says one can not live above sin, and that they sin everyday, they are saying, like it or not, it is a necessty for them to sin. They are saying it is impossible to quit sinning. For them to come back and say one can quit any sin any time reminds me of a smoker I saw in a cartoon. It said, "No one can tell me i cannot quit smoking! I have quit seven times already!"

God bless you Moriah! Keep obeying and serving the Lord! I have purposed in my heart to do the same!

 

[DHK]

Moriah, DHK places the words of others in his own words just as do all of us. That is not slander in the least. if it was, DHK would be as great a slanderer as anyone he accuses.

Please provide evidence of any slander.

Anytime ones says one can not live above sin, and that they sin everyday, they are saying, like it or not, it is a necessty for them to sin.

Is this an admission that you are above all sin; perfect; sinless, just as Christ is.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--Your own words condemn you.

They are saying it is impossible to quit sinning. For them to come back and say one can quit any sin any time reminds me of a smoker I saw in a cartoon. It said, "No one can tell me i cannot quit smoking! I have quit seven times already!"

And you say (or imply) that you have quit sinning altogether.
The Bible says that those who claim such are:
1. deceiving themselves.
2. the truth is not in them.
3. they make Christ a liar.
4. His Word is not in them.
--Is this your testimony??

 

[Alive in Christ]

Biblicist...you posted...

However, merely two or three saved persons do not constitute a New Testament church for many reasons

Well, apparantly Jesus does not seem to care if He is in a church or not for Him to be in ministry...

He says that if I and my next door neighbor gather in my yard for some purpose that involves Him, He shows up.

You admitted that the congregation is inseparable from observing the Great commission and in the commission there is someone doing the "teaching" and there is someone being taught to observe all things is there not?

Sure. When there is teaching, there has to be a teacher. God does not usually teach by mental telepathy. (although He DOES sometimes *speak* to a person personally.) He has done that with me many times, and brother, sometimes I am hundreds of miles from my place of gathering, (my church) when I hear from Him.

My question is can you find any epistle or APPROVED example where individuals in the New Testament were not members of a PUBLIC ASSEMBLY -the church- and did not habitually assemble as such?

That is the norm. I have always agreed on that. But the God of this universe is not limited in any sense, and PARTICULARLY not by us.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist...you posted...


Well, apparantly Jesus does not seem to care if He is in a church or not for Him to be in ministry...

He says that if I and my next door neighbor gather in my yard for some purpose that involves Him, He shows up.

If you are basing this supposition on Matthew 18:20 then you are completely ignoring the context. Matthew 18:20 is speaking about an existing church. The word "again" in verse 19 shows the contextual connection with verses 15-18.

In verses 17-18 he has just supported the use of the keys by the congregation in administration of church discipline. Size of the congregation does not matter. Even if the size is no more than what is minimum to make an assembly "two" or "three." What is important is that when the church meets they do every thing "in my name" = according to my instructions - in keeping with the authority of the keys.

So your fundemental support for you position simply does not exist if context determines the meaning and application of Matthew 18:17-20.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Biblicist....

I just checked out the Luke passage you referred to. and there is NOTHING, absolutly NOTHING, that even comes close to saying, or even implying, that when Christ said...

"where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name. I am in the midst"...

he meant "as long as you are in a church! If you are not in the church, this doesnt apply to you!

The scriptures simply do not support what you are saying.

I am a scripture guy. that is my standard.

 

[The Biblicist]

Try dealing with Paul's words - they are inspired words but yours are not.

Paul said those "in the flesh" CANNOT please God. In order to please God those coming to God must come in faith (Heb. 11:6) or else it is "impossible to please God - hence, those "in the flesh" have no ability to come to God in faith, because if they could then Paul could not say those "in the flesh CANNOT please God."

Your problem is not with me but with Romans 8:8 and Paul's absolute assertion that those "in the flesh CANNOT please God." Do you agree with Paul?

Paul classifies ALL HUMANS in one of two SPIRITUAL CONDITIONS

1. Any human is either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" and if they are not "in the spirit" it is because "HE IS NONE OF HIS."

2. Therefore, the only ones that are His are those who are "in the Spirit" and they have the Spirit dwelling in them and all others are lost.


You need to read again what I said very carefully because it is obvious you have not even grasped what I said or what Paul said.

Romans 8:8-9 when compared to Hebrews 11:6 proves that no lost person can believe as Romans 8:8 denies they have that ability (ou dunatai). John 6:44 as interpreted by Christ in John 6:64-65 proves that no man can come to Christ by faith unless it is "given" unto him by the Father. Hence, faith in the gospel is not natural born ability.

Hence, both Moriah and DHK are wrong. Both believe that the lost man has natural ability to believe. Moriah believes that unaided lost man in and of himself can believe in the gospel while DHK believes lost man can believe once enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

However, Romans 8:8-9 denies Moriah's position completely as it outrightly denies that those "in the flesh" can please God and it takes faith to please God (Heb. 11:6). Romans 8:8-9 denies DHK's position completely as there is no MIDDLE or THIRD option provided by Paul between being "in the flesh" versus "in the Spirit." Those "in the flesh" ARE NOT ABLE (Gr. ou dunatai) to please God and faith is required to please God (Heb. 11:6) and faith in Christ is something that must be "given" (Jn. 6:44 as interpreted by Christ in John 6:64-65) and thus is not a natural born ability as DHK believes.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Biblicist...

Try dealing with Paul's words - they are inspired words but yours are not.

I am not going by my words, I am going according to the scriptures. The Luke passages that we have been referring to.

They support my view, not yours.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Aquinas is held in regard. However, the Catholic Church has centuries before Augustine had certain views already established and built upon, and I think Augustine gets a bad wrap because of Calvin. Attonment for Catholics has always been reconciling Man to God. Augustine is often taken too literally as we can see he goes against this view of Penal Substitution in (In Joannem, Tract. cx, section 6). However more closely Augustine's view is that Christ paid a debt to Justice. Or the Aversion of wrath.

Thanks for your response. About the bolded part: I don't really agree with that, either, but it's better than penal substitution.

Do you think there is one predominant atonement theory in the RCC?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans 8:8-9 when compared to Hebrews 11:6 proves that no lost person can believe as Romans 8:8 denies they have that ability (ou dunatai). John 6:44 as interpreted by Christ in John 6:64-65 proves that no man can come to Christ by faith unless it is "given" unto him by the Father. Hence, faith in the gospel is not natural born ability.

Hence, both Moriah and DHK are wrong. Both believe that the lost man has natural ability to believe. Moriah believes that unaided lost man in and of himself can believe in the gospel while DHK believes lost man can believe once enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

However, Romans 8:8-9 denies Moriah's position completely as it outrightly denies that those "in the flesh" can please God and it takes faith to please God (Heb. 11:6). Romans 8:8-9 denies DHK's position completely as there is no MIDDLE or THIRD option provided by Paul between being "in the flesh" versus "in the Spirit." Those "in the flesh" ARE NOT ABLE (Gr. ou dunatai) to please God and faith is required to please God (Heb. 11:6) and faith in Christ is something that must be "given" (Jn. 6:44 as interpreted by Christ in John 6:64-65) and thus is not a natural born ability as DHK believes.

OH MY MY MY....... Thank you! :godisgood:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The LETTERS were read to the churches. The letters are Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians; Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, and Revelations. The books are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

So do not put down the written word and exalt the Catholic Church.

I haven't put down the written word. I spoke the truth. Show me one verse where Jesus gave his disciples a book a volume. You cannot because he did not as I said. He however used them to build up a church and the Apostolic deposit of faith came in two modes (you really should study the scriptures and read history) Here are some verses to keep in mind.

14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach - Mk 3:14

Notice Jesus sends his Apostles out to preach (orally)the faith which they did 20 years before the first Gospel was actually penned. This is how the faith was passed on in the early church. This is further substantiated by Luke 10:16

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Note Jesus doesn't say whoever reads you but hears you. Also look at how the word of God was transmitted by Judas and Sillas

27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing - Acts 15:27

It was with Apostolic authority that Judas and Sillas confirmed the written word orally. Not that the written word confirmed their oral statements. Note what Paul says to Timothy in 2 Timothy

13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus

Not what was written from me but taught orally. Also note what Paul says to Timothy in order to Keep Orthodoxy alive

2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Orthodoxy was kept by the spoken word. Note Paul doesn't refer him to the New Testament in this passage. Look how the gospels were perpetuated in Acts

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Note it doesn't say scripture reading but what the Apsotles taught by word of Mouth. Note for over a thousand years the Torah (scriptures) taught to worship on the Sabbath or Saturday the last day of the week. But look at what the Apostles themselves changed from written scriptures by their oral teachings in Acts 20

On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

which the first day of the week is Sunday as we know. Breaking bread here refers to communion. Look at what Paul says to Timothy

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus

We see that Timothy was given Oral instruction and Writen instruction and that he was to continue in both. And scriptures at this point is primarily the OT. The NT wasn't complete at this time.

So what did Jesus give us to keep us right? Well these are what the scriptures say

18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. - Matt 16

what won't hell overcome? The scriptures? No the Church that Jesus build using the Apostles. Look how correction is to be accomplished by Jesus' own words

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church;

Tell it to whom? The bible? On your own conscience because you are not fellowshiping? No! But to the Church!!!!!! Christianity as I said is not an individual cerebral faith buy a community faith in which we interact with each other.

So, I haven't done a diservice to scriptures but you who refuses to listen to them in the matter of a church the need for fellowship. And as you see Jesus never gave us a book but a church and the Apostles fullness of teachings came both in the spoken word and their written word as the scriptures clearly shows.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thanks for your response. About the bolded part: I don't really agree with that, either, but it's better than penal substitution.

Do you think there is one predominant atonement theory in the RCC?

Yes but I will have to go over it latter. On my way to church.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist...



I am not going by my words, I am going according to the scriptures. The Luke passages that we have been referring to.

They support my view, not yours.

I said nothing about Luke! I said Matthew 18:15-20! Where do you get Luke? Are we on the same page?