Seminary degrees and the call of God

[JonC]

What part of "few and far between" do you not understand? The latest ministry of any of those you mentioned was Spurgeon, who died in 1892. That's pretty far from "common" wouldn't you agree?

If seminary is a “necessary” qualification, and if your point is that Scripture sets the precedent by the “earthly ministry of Christ,” then there should be no “few and far between.” I think that the passage refers to discipleship (which includes church edification), not necessarily formal education.

I agree that seminary is important, and pastors can benefit a great deal from such an education. I would prefer that a pastor have a Masters degree – perhaps a BA – related to Christian doctrine (I’m less concerned about a MDiv, but at least a degree that examined hermeneutics, scripture, and provided a good overview of theological issues in our times). I would like to know that he worked through his faith and defended his beliefs in an environment that is provided at seminary. But too often I believe we simply look at degrees and personality as the primary qualification.

 

[A Penny Saved]

I was an Elder in a local Assemblies of God for many years, before becoming a baptist, and just wonder if your church islike that, or if into word of faith, divine health/healings/miracles etc? Do you view the likes of hagin/Copeland/Hinn as teachers of God?

The church does do alot of that "healing, signs and wonders" stuff, but not, I think, the way it should be done - the way it happens in the bible, always pointing only to Jesus (not the pastor, not "our own faith"), always with a purpose, and always permanent. I've seen some of those guys on TV (Benny Hinn) and I really don't think that's biblical. It's so showy and full of pageantry and drama. I never picture Jesus being that way when He healed people.

I hate that I could be in trouble already at my very first church, but that's part of the reason I'm here on the Baptist Board. I don't think I can last long at my church just sitting there thinking, "This is sooooo fake! Why am I even here?" But what if I'm wrong and in danger of losing my salvation because of all my doubts?

A Penny, Saved?

 

[Yeshua1]

The church does do alot of that "healing, signs and wonders" stuff, but not, I think, the way it should be done - the way it happens in the bible, always pointing only to Jesus (not the pastor, not "our own faith"), always with a purpose, and always permanent. I've seen some of those guys on TV (Benny Hinn) and I really don't think that's biblical. It's so showy and full of pageantry and drama. I never picture Jesus being that way when He healed people.

I hate that I could be in trouble already at my very first church, but that's part of the reason I'm here on the Baptist Board. I don't think I can last long at my church just sitting there thinking, "This is sooooo fake! Why am I even here?" But what if I'm wrong and in danger of losing my salvation because of all my doubts?

A Penny, Saved?

Would really advise you to try to study the bible, and read/listen to some good non Charasmatics, and to go check out another local baptsit church in your area that is teaching sounder doctrines!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

If seminary is a “necessary” qualification, and if your point is that Scripture sets the precedent by the “earthly ministry of Christ,” then there should be no “few and far between.” I think that the passage refers to discipleship (which includes church edification), not necessarily formal education.

The "few and far between" to whom I refer are those who are called and equipped directly by the Holy Spirit. They are exceptionally few in number.

 

[JonC]

The "few and far between" to whom I refer are those who are called and equipped directly by the Holy Spirit. They are exceptionally few in number.

So seminary is for people who want to be pastors but are not called and equipped directly by the Holy Spirit?

I agree about the value of seminary, and actually with much you have said (excluding the above quote). Those “exceptions” acquired an education through discipline, prayer and study. The seminary student likewise acquires an education through the same process (but if true spiritual learning takes place, it is through the Holy Spirit). Seminary is an advantage for several reasons, not the least being the structured learning it provides, the exploration of competing views, and the environment within which one can examine their beliefs (I’m not “anti-seminary”).

When I started this thread, what I had in mind was the professionalization and specialization of the ministry. If one needs a church planter, well – the preferred candidate has a Masters or PhD in ecclesiological horticulture.

 

[Yeshua1]

So seminary is for people who want to be pastors but are not called and equipped directly by the Holy Spirit?

I agree about the value of seminary, and actually with much you have said (excluding the above quote). Those “exceptions” acquired an education through discipline, prayer and study. The seminary student likewise acquires an education through the same process (but if true spiritual learning takes place, it is through the Holy Spirit). Seminary is an advantage for several reasons, not the least being the structured learning it provides, the exploration of competing views, and the environment within which one can examine their beliefs (I’m not “anti-seminary”).

When I started this thread, what I had in mind was the professionalization and specialization of the ministry. If one needs a church planter, well – the preferred candidate has a Masters or PhD in ecclesiological horticulture.

Here i thought the O{ was about why there are some groups within the church that place emphasis on a pastor education, while others group, not so much, if at all!

Why some would say unless the pastor is a PHD not qualified, and others that he just needs the ole "Holy ghost annoiting!"

 

[TCassidy]

The President of the Seminary I attended often said, "He who God calls to preach He first calls to prepare."

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So seminary is for people who want to be pastors but are not called and equipped directly by the Holy Spirit?

Ah, the old "twist-what-he-says-and-put-words-in-his-mouth" routine.

Thankfully, you redeemed yourself ...

I agree about the value of seminary, and actually with much you have said (excluding the above quote). Those “exceptions” acquired an education through discipline, prayer and study. The seminary student likewise acquires an education through the same process (but if true spiritual learning takes place, it is through the Holy Spirit). Seminary is an advantage for several reasons, not the least being the structured learning it provides, the exploration of competing views, and the environment within which one can examine their beliefs (I’m not “anti-seminary”).

When I started this thread, what I had in mind was the professionalization and specialization of the ministry. If one needs a church planter, well – the preferred candidate has a Masters or PhD in ecclesiological horticulture.

Seriously (removing my tongue from my cheek), I guess someone could have read my post and thought I was saying, "If the Holy Spirit doesn't equip you, go to seminary!" Obviously, that isn't what I meant. To even apply to a seminary must presuppose one is called, yes. If not called, the candidate is applying to the wrong kind of school.

 

[JonC]

Ah, the old "twist-what-he-says-and-put-words-in-his-mouth" routine.

Sorry – couldn’t help it (it was a tongue-in-cheek reply).

Thankfully, you redeemed yourself ...

But I’m a little more “Calvinistic” to believe in self-redemption.


I do believe that those God calls, he prepares. Certainly one called to preach is prepared through education (whether it is through Seminary or – as in the case of those “exceptions” – through alternate education).



But there also seems to be an atmosphere that assigns the work of the ministry to the spiritual elites who hold credentials to prove it. If I have a PhD with several years experience as a pastor, surely I would be equipped to train others to assume leadership roles within the church.



What I do not see is discipleship within the church to equip members to assume leadership roles. More often than not, pastors and key leaders are imported rather than produced. In many ways, churches have relinquished this task to the seminary.

 

[Yeshua1]

The President of the Seminary I attended often said, "He who God calls to preach He first calls to prepare."

Truer words have never been spoken.

And much of that preparation comes everything but classroom studying!

Its called the "school of life!"

 

[evangelist6589]

My church is Baptist and Charismatic. Our pastor calls seminary "cemetary" and well, pokes alot of fun at seminary training. So I can vouch for the statement above that seminary training is not highly regarded in Charismatic churches. I'm only 13 years old and my parents are unbelievers, and I think I'm going to be in trouble at my church because I can't go along with alot of what I see, and what happens at church doesn't look like what happens in the bible. Like unbelievers interpreting tongues (bible) vs other believers tearfully wailing some generic one-size-fits-all "prophecy" (our church).

The youth minister even scolded me for being "too concerned about doctrine." He says "just let go and love the Lord." Except I don't know what that even means.

I bet it wouldn't be this way if they had gone to seminary instead of relying completely on "the anointing" to know what to do!

Perplexed Penny

Get out of that church and start listening to Grace to You on your computer at home.

 

[gb93433]

There are too many today just as there was in the days of Jesus who have many degrees but little or no temperature. God wants people who are on fire. You cannot build a fire with no temperature, but study may help to fuel an existing fire.

There are churches who want someone with degrees because they want to portray an image in the community. If a man has not been through the fire of affliction then he knows little of God. All he comes with is his head knowledge theology and not the theology of the God who is. Good churches want good pastors, and godly churches want godly pastors.

The prophets knew God. They did not wait for a committee, church, or seminary to give them passion and fire. I have personally seen a few who threw in the towel on God because God did not deliver what they wanted or expected. They denied God.

Ministry is not about me, but about God. It is not about what I expect from him but what He expects from me. It is not about my success but about Him.

Serious study and education with a fire burning bright will give you tools to keep from being content with laziness and give you a humility that penetrates deep. The man who plumbs the depths of scripture is not content with just something. He is not content until he has studied to give the people his very best from what God gives. He does not just gives sermons but gives the people a passion for God.

I once pastored a congregation that was dying and a young man who was just out of college told me about how I was doing most everything wrong. He was a pastor's son. About two years later he wrote on his blog about how God does not exist. He was proud of being a leader in his dad's church when he was younger and thought I should give him a leadership position.I told him that leaders prove themselves in the disciples they make. He was argumentative and never reached anyone.

 

[TCassidy]

And much of that preparation comes everything but classroom studying!

Its called the "school of life!"

Yes, I know a lot of people who learned paleo-Hebrew and Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek by working at their local McDonalds. <roll eyes>

 

[webdog]

Yes, I know a lot of people who learned paleo-Hebrew and Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek by working at their local McDonalds. <roll eyes>

Percent of pastors who know that are probably under 3%. I missed those requirements in 1 Timothy 3, btw.

 

[JonC]

I learned some Spanish as a kid working at McDonalds – does that count?

Percent of pastors in the early church who knew Hebrew is probably not as high as many seem to assume.

 

[gb93433]

I learned some Spanish as a kid working at McDonalds – does that count?

I did too. They were cuss words without knowing what they meant until someone told me.

 

[JonC]

I did too. They were cuss words without knowing what they meant until someone told me.

Bet you had some interesting (although perhaps one sided) conversations :smilewinkgrin:

 

[gb93433]

Bet you had some interesting (although perhaps one sided) conversations :smilewinkgrin:

Not really. They were conversations about how the church was started and they were reaching people who were different. Rather basic discussions. That was about three years ago. I do not remember seeing anything on their website like what I see now.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, I know a lot of people who learned paleo-Hebrew and Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek by working at their local McDonalds. <roll eyes>

some of the most lessons God has to train His people were NOT ina classroom, nut out in real life...

that is where you deal with not just know theology, but practicing it!

think most recent graduates shocked that many members not so much into discussing Greek Grammar as their teachers were, but much more into how to pray, how to apply scriptures, help for the sick in midst etc!

 

[gb93433]

I would hate to have an undertaker operate on me if I needed heart surgery. Most likely he has seen more hearts than a heart surgeon but he knows little of the details of how a heart works. That is how it is with ignorance.

The ignorant know some basics and can have a repeat after me theology which repeats what others say but will not become knowledgeable as those who understand the details of the historical context of scripture (which includes much more than translating Greek and Hebrew words). I have followed two pastors who did understand that and I had to deal with issues in the church he led. The people saw the difference but did not know who to believe at first.