Senator McCain sought the endorsement of controversial pastor

[KenH]

Hagee, in 'NYT' This Sunday, Says McCain Sought His Endorsement

By Greg Mitchell

Published: March 20, 2008 5:35 PM ET

NEW YORK In an interview that will appear in this Sunday's New York Times Magazine, controversial televangelist Rev. John Hagee declares, "It's true that [John] McCain's campaign sought my endorsement."

McCain has attempted to distance himself from some of Hagee's views, much as Barack Obama is doing in relation to Rev. Jeremiah Wright. But unlike McCain, Obama has not stood on stage with Wright and accepted his accolades this year.​

- www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003728364

​

 

[Ps104_33]

What is so controversial about John Hagee? If any Baptist pastor endorsed John McCain the MSM would consider it controversial. From an Independant Baptist standpoint we shouldnt consider controversial what the secular media considers controversial.

 

[KenH]

John Hagee is a documented anti-Catholic bigot and a documented extremist even among dispensationalists.

 

[Martin]

John Hagee is a documented anti-Catholic bigot

==Excuse me? What happened to the Gospel and the Reformation? Since when did opposing the false teachings of the Catholic Church become an act of bigotry? Don't allow politics to pollute good theology.

and a documented extremist even among dispensationalists.

==He does hold to hyper-dispensational views. However I don't see how that affects his endorsement of McCain. Mainly since 99% of Americans have no idea what dispensationalist theology is.

I think your opposition to McCain is hitting new lows. Why don't you focus on the issues? Or is that hard for you to do since you are now supporting a candidate who opposes almost everything you claimed to stand for when you supported Ron Paul? Just asking.

 

[KenH]

1) Since when did opposing the false teachings of the Catholic Church become an act of bigotry?

2) Why don't you focus on the issues?

1) That's not the bigotry. It's his statements tying the Catholic Church to Hitler.

2) Why doesn't your side do so?

 

[Martin]

1) That's not the bigotry. It's his statements tying the Catholic Church to Hitler.

==In a previous post, I believe directed towards you, I have already pointed out that Hagee's position on the Holocaust and Pius XII is shared by some historians of the period. Hagee's position is not extreme because there are real questions about the actions of the Vatican and other Catholics during the Holocaust. However if you are not familiar with the historiography of the Holocaust I doubt you would know that.

2) Why doesn't your side do so?

==I love talking about the issues. What I am seeing in your threads, however, is a focus on spin rather than issues. Whether it is using McCain's age against him or trying to confuse people with this stuff about Hagee, you seem much more interested in bashing McCain than dealing with the issues. Maybe that is because you realize that moving from Paul to Obama is such a unnatural jump? I mean, talk about two totally different positions.

 

[Martin]

Well Ken, I went back and did a search and found that my remarks on the Holocaust were directed towards you. Yet, I don't believe you responded. It was in one of several threads you have posted on McCain and Hagee (ie...this is not the first).

Anyway here is what I said with the link:

"There is a thread of holocaust historiography that asserts that there was a close relationship of some sort between Rome and the Nazi government of Germany. I refer you to a controversial work called Hitler's Pope. Then there are those who are responding to Hitler's Pope with books such as The Myth of Hitler's Pope. Personally I believe the issue is more complex than any of those author's allows for. Pope PiusXII had a personal dedication to, what one scholar has called, the "diplomatic church model". As such, the failure of Pius to respond to the events of the Holocaust in a timely and effective manner was the result of this view of how the Roman Catholic Church should engage in such issues. Was there antisemitism in the Roman Church (as well as the Protestant Church)? Certainly. Did that play a role in the decisions of Pius and the Vatican? Probably not. As has been pointed out, "virtually no evidence exists of overt antisemitism at this level". However the antisemitism of some Catholics in places like Germany, Austria, and Poland did have terrible results. So my view on this matter is that both sides make it too black and white. The role of the Vatican, Pius XII, and the larger Catholic Church in the Holocaust is complex and varies from situation to situation.

My point is that Hagee's views are not totally out of the ballpark. His views are represented by a certain school within the Holocaust historiography. Sadly those who fly off the handle and condemn Hagee for his views, and through Hagee's endorsement McCain, often have a very limited understanding of the issues. We must also keep in mind that, long before the Holocaust, the Catholic Church was condemned by protestant evangelicals. Why? Because of the Catholic Church's perverting of the Gospel and persecution of Christians. I am deeply bothered by the habit of so many evangelicals today of buddying up with Rome. We must never forget the warnings of Scripture about those who pervert the Gospel with works (Gal 1:6-9)." -SOURCE

 

[KenH]

Talking about me, which so many on your side on this board seem to be obsessed with, is not dealing with the issues, Martin.

 

[KenH]

Martin,

Your post even admits that the idea of "Hitler's Pope" is controversial. Therefore, why should a Christian minister who is supposed to be trying to win all kinds of people to Christ Jesus even approach such a controversial subject?

Likewise, why would a serious presidential candidate seek the endorsement of such a Christian minister?

I think it calls into serious question the judgment of Senator McCain and whether this nation should trust him with having his finger on the nuclear button.

 

[Martin]

see below..........

 

[Martin]

Your post even admits that the idea of "Hitler's Pope" is controversial.

==Contraversial does not mean "out of the park". I would think that both positions are contraversial among those historians who debate this issue.

Therefore, why should a Christian minister who is supposed to be trying to win all kinds of people to Christ Jesus even approach such a controversial subject?

==I am not a supporter of Hagee, but since when are Christian ministers suppose to stay clear of contraversial topics? The Gospel is contraversial, as is the truth about the Catholic Church's perversion of the Gospel.

I do, however, think Hagee should educate himself more on this issue before he speaks about it. As I pointed out, I think his position on the Holocaust and the Vatican is too black and white.

why would a serious presidential candidate seek the endorsement of such a Christian minister?

==I don't know, I would never seek Hagee's endorsement. I imagine, however, that McCain did it trying to appeal to evangelicals. Following Falwell's death I don't think he knew who to go to. A poor choice? Yes, but I doubt McCain is really familiar with Hagee's positions.

I think it calls into serious question the judgment of Senator McCain and whether this nation should trust him with having his finger on the nuclear button.

==I don't. McCain has the experience and maturity to lead this nation in a time of international conflict. After all, McCain was one of Rumsfeld's first critics. McCain understood the mistakes the Bush administration was making and he spoke out only to get targeted by Bush supporters who refused to see the facts. McCain has a record of leadership. Does Hillary? No. Does Obama? No. All we have with those folks is pretend experience and a speech on foreign policy.

 

[KenH]

1) since when are Christian ministers suppose to stay clear of contraversial topics?

2) I don't.

1) How does tying the Catholic Church to Hitler advance the gospel?

2) Thus, we have a horse race come November 4.

 

[Martin]

1) How does tying the Catholic Church to Hitler advance the gospel?

==Have you already pushed aside what I have pointed out at least twice already? The Catholic Church is tied to the Holocaust, period. Whatever its role was or was not. To answer your question I think you have to look at the context in which Hagee raises his point about the Holocaust (ie...prophecy).

 

[KenH]

Sorry, Martin, but you can make all of the excuses you want for Senator McCain by attacking the Catholic Church; however, unless he repudiates the endorsement of John Hagee(which he sought) this will continue to be an issue all the way to November 4 and could very well sink his chances at winning as it will very, very difficult for a Catholic(including Hispanics) to vote for him.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Sorry, Martin, but you can make all of the excuses you want for Senator McCain; however, unless he repudiates the endorsement of John Hagee(which he sought) this will continue to be an issue all the way to November 4 and could very well sink his chances at winning.

:laugh: Ken Ken Ken, this is by far one of the most ridiculous statements you have ever made on this board (and there have been MANY).

Obama has a pastor for 20 years that is is "mentor" and on his campaign for a period of time and has been proven to be a racist and hate America and that is OK, but this is going to cost McCain the Presidency.... give it up man

 

[larryjf]

Since Hagee denies Christ as the Messiah, i wouldn't consider him a Christian. These are quotes from his book, "In Defense of Israel"...


[FONT=&quot]"Jesus refused to produce a sign because it was not the Father’s will, nor his, to be Messiah." (p. 138)

"The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah." (p. 140)

"They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused." (p. 141)

"Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed." (p. 145)[/FONT]

 

[Rubato 1]

John Hagee is a documented anti-Catholic bigot and a documented extremist even among dispensationalists.

So is God, many times!:laugh:

An 'anti-catholic' bigot...
An 'anti-bigot' bigot...
Seems fair enough to me.

 

[Ps104_33]

Oh nooooooooo!!!!!! I cant support McCain because Hagee is a hyper-dipensationalist!!!!!!.

Cmon Ken, Get real. You are seriously losing it.

 

[KenH]

I think it is you posters who keep discussing me who are losing it.

Why the obsession with me? I just a lovable little fuzz ball and I am not running for public office.

 

[Ps104_33]

I could dig up old Billy Graham sermons where he comdemned Catholicism. What changed? Graham or Catholicism?