Seventh Day Adventist Question

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Bob Ryan, "I also pointed out that the NT is already CLEAR - that Christ does NOT start His High Priestly ministry until AFTER His ascension AFTER His resurrection.

To try and contradict Heb 7 and 8 such that the High Priestly work of Christ starts BEFORE His resurrection "AS IF" He had ascended to the Father BEFORE His resurrection -- is to contradict BOTH the OT and NT.

John 20 states at Christ's resurrection "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father".

Up, or Down? Where is heaven? It is WHERE JESUS IS EXALTED AND SEATED KING OF THE KINGDOM, PRIEST OF THE PEOPLE, JUDGE OF ALL!
And I have never said Jesus began his office "AFTER" His resurrection, but, as right here once more, IN and with and at and through His resurrection immediately in and with and at and through His exaltation to and in with and through Office! All Eternity concentrated in and with and at and through the very moment of Jesus' being resurrected from the dead. Even creation STARTS here and ENDS: HERE! Therefore it's no surprise the Scriptures first takes it for granted and anticipates it, and second, simply in so many words say and confirm the fact of it, "IN SABBATH-DAY'S-TIME'S-FULNESS" (Mt.28:1).
And there is NO "as if" about this - you discern it as such to your own whims!
"John 20 states at Christ's resurrection "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father". Indeed! Yet it was the Trinity in its most present Being Who raised Christ from the grave and death and the realms of hell and put Him on the Throne of God at His own Right Hand - most supreme position of Divinity - so where's 'heaven' once again? Where God is - not where man's imagination stops!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Inevitably you must get false and ridiculous, saying I say "ascended to the Father BEFORE His resurrection". You are blind to simple truth - the full and all-encompassing TRUTH of Jesus' resurrection, as Paul states in Romans, "Declared the Son of God WITH POWER (with God's own-excceding great power Eph.1:19) according to the Spirit of Holiness". This is Jesus' High Priestly Office in toto. Take it or leave it for "He afterward", SHALL, not speak, "of another day" - what 1844 years "AFTER"! See how your own foolishness catch you in your foolishness!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Claudia T, "Seventh Day Adventists are taught the basics of salvation very early on... both from the Bible and in the Spirit of Prophecy..."
With "Spirit of Prophecy" you obviously mean Mrs White. Thanks, but no thanks! I wonder if "The Investigative Judgement" would ever have been, were it not for her. I shall rather throw out bath-water, baby and all! No, never not even into old age are they tought the basics of salvation. Not for as long as they hold to this and many other rogueish errors!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn: Jesus' atonement 'stopped' - i.e., was perfected - in resurrection from the dead. Ephesians 1:19f and Hebrews is ABSOLUTELY clear on this.
Notice the contradictory facts IN the text of Hebrews that would deny the statement above.

#1. Hebrews 7-8 DOES say Christ STARTED His High Priestly work ONLY AFTER going to heaven.

#2. Hebrews 8 DOES say that Christ WAS NOT functioning in High Priestly roles while on earth. (See vs 4).

#3. Hebrews 7-10 DOES point to Christ's work AFTER the Cross FOR US - JUST as the Lev 16 model given By God - predicts!!

Ignoring inconvenient details is not the way to build a doctrinal position.

Answer:

Is “going to heaven” a “fact IN the text” of “Hebrews 7-8”? 7:26, “For such an high priest (Jesus [22] He continueth ever [24]) became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens”. Literally, “IN the text”, ‘facts’ are “contradictory”, “because this Man continueth ever”, but “the heavens shall pass away”. (Mt.5:18, 2Pt.3:7); For He is “made HIGHER than the heavens”.
The ‘heavens’ are not He nor are the ‘heavens’ his equal, but, like the earth the ‘heavens’ are “made His footstool” while He “is set on the Right Hand of the Throne of the Majesty in the heavens (cf. 12:2; active: “sat down on the right hand of God” 10:12) – a Minister of the Sanctuary and of the True Tabernacle which the Lord pitched. … Now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a Better Covenant.” (8:6) “BY SO MUCH was Jesus made The Surety of a better Testament.” (7:22)

“How”, “now”? “For if He were on earth, He should not be a priest, seeing …” priests “on earth”, “serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things … according to the pattern in the mount”! (8:4-5)

“The example and shadow of heavenly things” is identical “the pattern in the mount”! Jesus the Risen Christ does NOT “serve” it else He would have had to be mortal still, and would “need daily to offer up sacrifice”. He would not have been “separate from sinners”, but a sinner himself – He would have ‘served’ “after the law of a carnal commandment”! (7:16)

IN the text of Hebrews 7 and 8 it is DENIED that Christ STARTED His High Priestly work ONLY AFTER going to heaven. On the contrary, Christ’s finished High Priestly work was His visa for and passport to ascending to the throne of God – once again as Ephesians 1:21 states – “Far ABOVE all principality”.

‘Heaven’ differs not from ‘earth’ as to its creatureliness. The inconceivable above the highest of heavens still is created ‘worlds’ – they are not God; not the Creator. (Karl Barth) They are finite even if infinite. “The heavens” is not “The Sanctuary” nor contains the True Sanctuary Jesus Christ through Whom God created the infinite and finite. They are beneath Him and on Him dependent who is self-contained and who is the only Self-contained, God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Christ entered into full fellowship within the Trinity (as I before have referred to Schilder). This is the “Sanctuary” or ‘Temple’ we metaphorically refer to as is it ‘in heaven’. The “Sanctuary” of the Scriptures in dimension of time is the divine moment of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead and the grave in the tilled earth of man’s domain. This is what Hebrews teach. Read it over again without your narrow, petty, preconceived ideas! See the rich ‘text of Hebrews’ as it describes Jesus’ resurrection, “being made perfect”, “become the Author of eternal salvation”, “called of God an High Priest after the order of Melchisedec”, “returning from the slaughter of the kings”, “obtained the promise”, “obtained a more excellent ministry”, “obtained eternal redemption”, “made a Surety”, “made perfect” (cf. 11:40), “made higher than the heavens”, “set at the right hand of the Throne of the Majesty”, “the true Tabernacle pitched”, “made manifest”, “time of reformation”, “appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself … appeared the second time without sin unto salvation”, “entered into the holiest by the blood”, “consecrated the new and living way through the veil, through His flesh”, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today, and for ever”, “brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus”, “had given them rest”, “He that is entered into His rest”, “Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee!”

So yes! Hebrews 7-8 DOES say Christ STARTED His High Priestly work ONLY AFTER going to heaven, but most obviously not in the way you claim!

And definitely not, does “Hebrews 8 say that Christ WAS NOT functioning in High Priestly roles while on earth. (See vs 4).” How do you distort the Word! It says, “If He were on earth”, meaning had He not risen from the dead, “He would not have been a priest … BUT NOW …” – being raised from the dead, having “OBTAINED … He is the Mediator”! “BUT NOW” having been found “without fault / faultless … a new covenant”, had been made – 8:8 – all presupposing Jesus’ resurrection and everything being presupposed right IN and ON STRENGTH OF Jesus’ resurrection – “ACCOUNTING God was ABLE to raise Him up”! (11:19) But you jump right over it, disregarding Jesus’ resurrection as of no consequence: “Hebrews 7-10 DOES point to Christ's work AFTER the Cross FOR US - JUST as the Lev 16 model given By God – predicts!!” “Predicts” only in 1844 after Jesus’ birth does God begin to take notice of his death, what of his resurrection! Blasphemous fancy!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Quoting Bob Ryan, "I also pointed out that the NT is already CLEAR - that Christ does NOT start His High Priestly ministry until AFTER His ascension AFTER His resurrection.

To try and contradict Heb 7 and 8 such that the High Priestly work of Christ starts BEFORE His resurrection "AS IF" He had ascended to the Father BEFORE His resurrection -- is to contradict BOTH the OT and NT.

John 20 states at Christ's resurrection "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father".

GE said -

Up, or Down? Where is heaven?

What does "the BIBLE SAY"?

In Rev 2 we find that the tree of life is in heaven.

In Rev 22 we see that the Throne of God is where the Tree of Life is. IT is all in the New Jerusalem that comes down OUT OF HEAVEN.

End of story.

When Christ GOES to the FATHER - He is going to HEAVEN. The fact that HE HAD NOT YET ascended to the FAther was a point made about NOT WORSHIPPING Christ.

You seem to be trying to "Word-game" John 20.

The point is clear He was GOING to the FAther and to do so he must ASCEND to the FATHER --

John 20
16 Jesus said to her, ""Mary!'' She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, "" Rabboni!'' (which means, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, ""Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, "I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'''

I have never said Jesus began his office "AFTER" His resurrection, but, as right here once more, IN and with and at and through His resurrection

Good philosophizing - and sidestepping - But poor exegesis of "the point"..

Let's see what THE BIBLE SAYS about WHEN Christ began His UNIQUE work as High Priest --

In the book of Hebrews we have several key facts established beyond reasonable doubt. (It is key to observe these facts since arguments against the Bible view of the sanctuary and the heavenly ministry of Christ are often based on the practice of ignoring the details and denying the obvious.)
#1. There was a sanctuary on earth that was modeled after the Sanctuary in Heaven.

Hebrews
8:4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
8:5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''

9:23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

#2. The sanctuary is seen to have two rooms – each has a ministry – each is explicitly described.
#3. There is a Holy vs Most Holy contrast between the two rooms in the sanctuary.

Hebrews
9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
9:2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
9:3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,

#4. The sanctuary is seen to have two veils – One before the holy place and One between Holy and Most Holy The book of Hebrews addresses both of them. It does not assume that there can be only “one”.
9:3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,

#4. There is “Also” a Holy vs Most Holy Contrast between the two sanctuaries. The earthly is said to be the Holy Place made with hands and the Heavenly is the most holy tabernacle or sanctuary – not made with hands but made by God Himself.

8:1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
9:23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

#5. The priestly ministry of Christ only deals with His one True sacrifice and only begins after the Cross. It marks the end of the animal sacrifices and human priests – and the start of the ministry that deals exclusively with the One blood sacrifice of Christ and the ONE mediator between God and Man – our high priest – Jesus Christ – the Son of God

Heb 8
8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
8:4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;

This shows the end of all priestly roles “ON EARTH”

The only one that continues is that of the great antitype – Christ’s High Priestly ministry in the true tabernacle.

It shows that Christ did NOT carry on that work WHILE on earth – but BEGAN His work as High Priest when He “ascended to the Father”

John 20
16 Jesus said to her, ""Mary!'' She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, "" Rabboni!'' (which means, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, ""Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, "I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'''

Christ went to heaven and there – after His sacrifices “Appeared as a High Priest”

9:8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9:9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
9:10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

After His sacrifice and ascension -- Christ is High Priest according to this text – and is officiating with “His OWN blood”.

Hebrews 7 deals with the change in priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the ONE High Priest Jesus Christ.

Heb 7
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "" THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT
CHANGE HIS MIND, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER''');
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Hebrews 8 deals with the two sanctuaries and the New Covenant as the ONE Gospel for all mankind. The only one that “works”.

Again Heb 8 focuses on the TRANSITION that takes place when Christ ascends to heaven and begins His Work as our High Priest. “But NOW He has OBTAINED” that more excellent ministry.

8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

 

[BobRyan]

GE said
Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn: Jesus' atonement 'stopped' - i.e., was perfected - in resurrection from the dead. Ephesians 1:19f

Would have been a good place to PUT A QUOTE in from Ephesians 1 saying "Atonement as ENDED"!

No such quote can be found.

Here is Eph 1 for those with a fertile imagination to being eisgeting the point INTO The text!

Eph 1
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

No mention here of the word "Atonement" much less "Atonement STOPPED".

Eph 1
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

No mention here of the word "Atonement" much less "Atonement STOPPED".

Eph 1
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

No mention here of the word "Atonement" much less "Atonement STOPPED".

Eph 1
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

No mention here of the word "Atonement" much less "Atonement STOPPED".

But in 1John 2:2 WE DO see that the "Atoning SACRIFICE" is completed at the cross (see NIV).

How much better to see the words ACTUALLY IN the text rather than having to eisegete your own doctrine into it.

Eph 1
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

No mention here of the word "Atonement" much less "Atonement STOPPED".

Christs death IS the full and complete "Atoning Sacrifice" as the WORD points out --

In 1John 2:2 WE DO see that the "Atoning SACRIFICE" is completed at the cross (see NIV).

How much better to see the words ACTUALLY IN the text rather than having to eisegete your own doctrine into it.

Pushing the point BEYOND what the word says -- is never good doctrine - just good philosophy of men.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Why must you see the word atonement when looking at atonement being made?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Have the first generation Christians received the Full Gospel or had the world and God to wait until 1844 for it?

The NIV says the "SACRIFICE", thereby not negating anything of its completion unto atonement in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. I bet my boots its translators reserved nothing for anytime in future after its moment of fulfilment in the resurrection of Jesus.
Go on! See what you will reap for the course you have chosen. And don't be surprised or disappointed if many and truth-loving souls won't join your Church, but will shun it like the plague,

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quotes Bob Ryan “Rom 3:25, (NIV) God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—”

Paul at this stage in his Letter is only beginning his lengthy argument on justification. Ro.3:25 is therefore not his full or final statement on the matter of atonement. The doctrine of justification for Paul finds its fullness in Christ being raised from the dead – not in “Him presented as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in His blood (merely)”.
The next statement that more specifically has bearing on the matter of justification, one will only find in 4:24, from 21,
“What He (God) had promised, He was able also to perform. (How? Ephesians 1:19, “through the exceeding greatness of His power” – cf. Ro.1:4, Phil.3:10) And therefore it (faith – Abraham “was strong in faith”, verse 20) was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it is written, that faith was not reckoned to Abraham only for righteousness, but to us also, to whom it is accounted more closely – to those (namely) believing in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead – to those namely believing in Jesus, who was delivered for our offences and raised again for our justification.”

Bob Ryan comments – holding up his sleeve the SDA-concept of an ‘Investigative Judgement’ not yet started at Jesus’ resurrection, but only nearly two millennia later on in 1844, “This term (atonement-hilasmos) is used repeatedly in Lev 16:2, 14,15 ... etc with the definite article (THE) to reference THE Mercy Seat of the Most Holy Place. This idea in Hebrew context instead of the context of pagan Greek mythology, becomes “atoning sacrifice””
Atonement was not finished in Jesus in resurrection from the dead, is what Bob Ryan is driving at. But we have seen that for Paul, it was!
Says Bob Ryan and all SDA’s – Eph 1:19, “And what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might” – “says nothing about the "High Priestly work” of Christ. Say they, Jesus’ "High Priestly work ... is EXPLICITLY stated as STARTING after the resurrection.” It is “EXPLICITLY stated”, say they, in Leviticus 16 and in Hebrews chapters 7 to 10.

What therefore – according to the SDA’s – was ‘Finished’ at the cross? Not ‘atonement’, say they, but, “Christ finished making a "Sacrifice for sin" at His death” – as if there could be a difference (and that a mutually exclusive difference) between Christ’s work of ‘atonement’ and His work of making ‘sacrifice for sin’!

“For this reason” explains Bob Ryan, “we see in 1John 2:2 that the "Atoning Sacrifice" (NIV) is COMPLETE at the cross.”
But,
“JUST as Lev 16 SHOWS - that atoning sacrifice IS The core and basis of the Atonement process. But this gives us NO excuse to ignore and deny the role of the High Priestly work of Christ IN ATONEMENT as DESCRIBED in Lev 16 and EXPLICITLY identified in Heb 7-10!” [It is better to ignore Bob Ryan’s capital letters!]

“The bottom line is that "appeasement" was not Christ's role. (Says Bob Ryan!) His role was in ATONEMENT and according to the LEv 16 model that process STARTS with the "Atoning Sacrifice" that John mentioned in 1John 2:2 as being completed at the cross.”

So they create two jobs for different locations and for different priesthood! It obviously could not be Christ’s or He didn’t do a complete job firstly in His death and again failed to complete it in resurrection and a third time unsuccessful while ‘ordinary’ priest ‘in heaven’ in ‘the Holy’ – only to at last finish the job of High Priest in the “most Holy” – but even then not for final, because it must all be re-checked in the judgement of the Second Coming; but o my, another thousand years are needed to prove God and the innocent innocent and the guilty guilty before final retribution! Seven judgements! Yet God on the Seventh Day could not finish!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Have the first generation Christians received the Full Gospel or had the world and God to wait until 1844 for it?

Is this a response to a quote from me??

The NIV says the "ATONING SACRIFICE" was made by Christ at the cross!

In LEV 16 we SEE the ATONING Sacrifice MADE as the Lamb is SLAIN.

Nothing can be MORE OBVIOUS.

And in Lev 16 we ALSO SEE the unique work of the High Priest done ONLY on the day of Atonement.

Nothing ca be more obvious.

In Heb 7-10 we SEE Christ starting HIS WORK as High Priest when He ascends to the Father and NOT while on earth for the TEXT SAYS "IF HE were on Earth HE WOULD NOT BE a PRIEST AT ALL".

These points can be posted over and over -- and you can try to deny the obvious as many ways as you can creatively imagine -- but until you actually do something to undermine Lev 16 or Heb 7-10 or 1John 2:2 you are sorta stuck on this one GE.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Quoting Bob Ryan, "I also pointed out that the NT is already CLEAR - that Christ does NOT start His High Priestly ministry until AFTER His ascension AFTER His resurrection.

To try and contradict Heb 7 and 8 such that the High Priestly work of Christ starts BEFORE His resurrection "AS IF" He had ascended to the Father BEFORE His resurrection -- is to contradict BOTH the OT and NT.

John 20 states at Christ's resurrection "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father".

GE said -

Up, or Down? Where is heaven?

What does "the BIBLE SAY"?

In Rev 2 we find that the tree of life is in heaven.

In Rev 22 we see that the Throne of God is where the Tree of Life is. IT is all in the New Jerusalem that comes down OUT OF HEAVEN.

End of story.

When Christ GOES to the FATHER - He is going to HEAVEN. The fact that HE HAD NOT YET ascended to the FAther was a point made about NOT WORSHIPPING Christ.

You seem to be trying to "Word-game" John 20.

The point is clear He was GOING to the FAther and to do so he must ASCEND to the FATHER --

John 20
16 Jesus said to her, ""Mary!'' She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, "" Rabboni!'' (which means, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, ""Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, "I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'''

I have never said Jesus began his office "AFTER" His resurrection, but, as right here once more, IN and with and at and through His resurrection

Good philosophizing - and sidestepping - But poor exegesis of "the point"..

Let's see what THE BIBLE SAYS about WHEN Christ began His UNIQUE work as High Priest --

In the book of Hebrews we have several key facts established beyond reasonable doubt. (It is key to observe these facts since arguments against the Bible view of the sanctuary and the heavenly ministry of Christ are often based on the practice of ignoring the details and denying the obvious.)
#1. There was a sanctuary on earth that was modeled after the Sanctuary in Heaven.

Hebrews
8:4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
8:5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''

9:23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

#2. The sanctuary is seen to have two rooms – each has a ministry – each is explicitly described.
#3. There is a Holy vs Most Holy contrast between the two rooms in the sanctuary.

Hebrews
9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
9:2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
9:3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,

#4. The sanctuary is seen to have two veils – One before the holy place and One between Holy and Most Holy The book of Hebrews addresses both of them. It does not assume that there can be only “one”.
9:3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,

#4. There is “Also” a Holy vs Most Holy Contrast between the two sanctuaries. The earthly is said to be the Holy Place made with hands and the Heavenly is the most holy tabernacle or sanctuary – not made with hands but made by God Himself.

8:1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
9:23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

#5. The priestly ministry of Christ only deals with His one True sacrifice and only begins after the Cross. It marks the end of the animal sacrifices and human priests – and the start of the ministry that deals exclusively with the One blood sacrifice of Christ and the ONE mediator between God and Man – our high priest – Jesus Christ – the Son of God

Heb 8
8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
8:4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;

This shows the end of all priestly roles “ON EARTH”

The only one that continues is that of the great antitype – Christ’s High Priestly ministry in the true tabernacle.

It shows that Christ did NOT carry on that work WHILE on earth – but BEGAN His work as High Priest when He “ascended to the Father”

John 20
16 Jesus said to her, ""Mary!'' She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, "" Rabboni!'' (which means, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, ""Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, "I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'''

Christ went to heaven and there – after His sacrifices “Appeared as a High Priest”

9:8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9:9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
9:10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

After His sacrifice and ascension -- Christ is High Priest according to this text – and is officiating with “His OWN blood”.

Hebrews 7 deals with the change in priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the ONE High Priest Jesus Christ.

Heb 7
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "" THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT
CHANGE HIS MIND, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER''');
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Hebrews 8 deals with the two sanctuaries and the New Covenant as the ONE Gospel for all mankind. The only one that “works”.

Again Heb 8 focuses on the TRANSITION that takes place when Christ ascends to heaven and begins His Work as our High Priest. “But NOW He has OBTAINED” that more excellent ministry.

8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Somebody, please help! I havn't got the patience for this man. He doesn't read my posts, just keep on repeating the same 'arguments' or Scriptures.
I have challenged you in one of my OLD posts, to present one instance in Hebrews where Christ's "entering" is an 'entering' not through, with, in, and at his resurrection. I challenge you again. If in your search for one such incidence you cannot find the truth, then I'll 'rest my case'.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I'll give you an example of what I request from one of YOUR posts,
"because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever."
"When He offered up Himself", can and never may be separated from the Son's being "made perfect forever". The one without the other is non-existent - a lie! Even the phrases, "the word of the oath" and "appoints a Son" are alluding to and presupposing Jesus' resurrection. It in the Scriptures is always "resurrection from the dead" - the two things are inseparable - they constitute one Divine Truth, the Living Lord Jesus the Christ of God.
The same applies to each and every reference of yours to revelation. Jesus is the "Temple" which John saw; He is the Tree of Life, etc., JUST AS He is the Rider-Warrior in White. Revelation is "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" - not of things that had been, but of what was to come - and again it is Christ John prays should come soon.
Christ is all in all especially in prophecy and in symbolism or metaphor.

 

[BobRyan]

I have answered this "exhaustively" in the posts FROM HEBREWS SHOWING that Were Christ ON EARTH - while CHRIST was on earth HE DID NOT act in the role of priest.

Please read and respond to that point IF you want to refute it.

ThERE IS NO WAY to take Heb 7 or 8 or 9 AS QUOTED above and have "JESUS ENTERING JESUS" claiming HE IS the temple that HE ENTERED!

Please read.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Re-affirming his position, Bob Ryan writes (September 14, 2005 08:38 PM),
“The actual quote (Eph 1:19, “... and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might” -
One – This says nothing about ignoring God's instruction on Atonement in Lev 16.
Two – It says nothing about the process of atonement of Lev 16 being "completed at the resurrection".
Three – It says nothing about the "High Priestly work" of Lev 16 being negated or completed PRIOR to Christ's High Priestly work EXPLICITLY identified in Heb 7-10 that is EXPLICITLY stated as STARTING after the resurrection.”), made the following irrefutable -- undeniable points,

One: Christ's High Priestly ministry is STATED in Heb 7 and 8 to have STARTED after the resurrection.
Two: The Lev 16 instruction that GOD GIVES on Atonement SHOWS the unique work of the High Priest to be KEY to the Atonement process.
Three: The "ATONING SACRIFICE" that John identified in 1John 2:2 was COMPLETED at the cross and is SPECIFIED in Lev 16 as the event that begins the atonement process which must INCLUDE the work of the HIGH Priest.
These undeniable facts being too clear to obfuscate -- the response to that post (from GE) now goes on to "ignore them" and to "re-invent them" in a kind of revisionist-history much needed to make GE's case.”

So what’s new? Bob just goes on to ignore my objections and to re-invent his own and self-same ‘undeniable facts’ in a kind of revisionist-history (whatever that may mean) much needed to make his case. The error REMAINS, atonement / salvation not finished in the resurrection of Jesus but STARTING after the resurrection!

Goes he on, Bob Ryan, talking the same nonsense and ‘obfuscating’ ‘my’ position, saying,
“I also pointed out that the NT is already CLEAR - that Christ does NOT start His High Priestly ministry until AFTER His ascension AFTER His resurrection. To try and contradict Heb 7 and 8 such that the High Priestly work of Christ starts BEFORE His resurrection "AS IF" He had ascended to the Father BEFORE His resurrection -- is to contradict BOTH the OT and NT.
John 20 states at Christ's resurrection "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father"
Case closed. ... Bob Ryan”

A few ‘obviously’ intentional incriminating blunders of Bob’s hallucinating:
One: “"AS IF" He had ascended to the Father BEFORE His resurrection”.
I may be slow, but not idiotic.
Two: “... that the High Priestly work of Christ starts BEFORE His resurrection ...” is as true as that it continued after His resurrection. Christ’s priestly office at any point in his earthly or heavenly history has been that of High Priest. Were He an ‘ordinary’ priest, He would have had to be an ordinary man like ordinary priests are. “We have an High Priest” in Christ, says Hebrews. That is point number one. Point number two: The ‘heavenly Sanctuary’ is composed of a ‘Most Holy’ only. Never had a priest served in the ‘heavenly Sanctuary’ in a lesser ‘Holy’ than the Most Holy. For speaking of the ‘heavenly Sanctuary’ – again – we speak of non other or lesser than Christ the God-Man Jesus.
Three: Being High Priest not only is an office and appointment to Christ – not only a task that in point in time had begun and in point in time had been finished and then before and after He no longer was High Priest. Being High Priest for Christ is as being God. It is attributive of Christ – an eternal divine characteristic and essence of His. Therefore at no ‘stadium’ of His eternal existence was Christ not High Priest, or was He ‘only’ Priest, or not Priest anyway.
The SDA’s are the only Christian organisation I know of that ‘understand’ a two-compartment heavenly sanctuary.
Four: I’ll repeat this one, seeing you haven’t taken notice of my answer to your supposition of what my supposition is – “John 20 states at Christ's resurrection "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father"” …
The Father descended, the Holy Spirit descended, and with them and the Throne of God, all the heavenly inhabitants descended to inaugurate Jesus Chosen Acre (Jesus of Nazareth) Triumphant Victor King “WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD”. It was God’s SABBATH-DEED OF THE SABBATH DAY ON THE SABBATH DAY, when “there suddenly was a great earthquake and an angel from heaven descended and rolled away the stone from the grave, and sat upon it” in act of creaturely counterpoint-rest to the God-act of the exceeding greatness of His Power-Rest. “And God the Seventh Day rested”, “God thus concerning the Seventh Day having spoken”. “It is finished” it echoes from the cross on Calvary’s hill. When Jahweh Elohim comes down and touches the Olive-mount, it splits in two. It is fulfilled! All Prophecy; all Promise; all Law; all Psalm. He has entered – entered into His own Rest as God. Sela, the Psalm is taken up again, the Prophecy sounds through sphere and stratosphere, and through every earthly court and heavenly court: He is risen! The Promise lives on: “God-to-us-ward”; the Law confirms: To His Greatness Glory!
Atonement complete in Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead, dear brother in Jesus Christ! Celebrate! Feast! Eat and drink through faith partaking of His body and blood and grace, let not anyone against you judge, for these things festive are the spectre only of the things a-coming, even the Body of Christ’s Own, holding to the Head from Whom all the Body through joints and bands being supplied with nourishment spiritual, grows with the abundance of God. (Or do you hate it, brother Bob, that I should at this point again refer to this text?)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I have answered this "exhaustively" in the posts FROM HEBREWS SHOWING that Were Christ ON EARTH - while CHRIST was on earth HE DID NOT act in the role of priest.

Please read and respond to that point IF you want to refute it.

ThERE IS NO WAY to take Heb 7 or 8 or 9 AS QUOTED above and have "JESUS ENTERING JESUS" claiming HE IS the temple that HE ENTERED!

Please read.

In Christ,

Bob

Wretched and poor and miserable and blind - the 'last' Church. Who says so? You do! All the while you think you are rich and increased with goods - especially spiritual goods!
Like here precisely in your conceptions of the Sanctuary and High-Priest-hood of Christ. What do you forfeit! My heart goes out to you! Look, Christ is knocking at the door! You hear Him? It is He! It is He! Our Sanctuary, our Most Holy High Priest in Himself. He wants to sanctuary with you to tabernacle with you. I am the Door, He said; I am the Way; I am the Bread: I am the Water; I am the Judgement ... He left out nothing for, "I AM!" No! You're not the Sanctuary - you send him away from entering in and communing with Him in the Sanctuary of His Own Self - of His Own Rest as God's!
What can I say to persuade you away from your gravel-dry interpretation of the Law of God? I can but present to you the Living Law of God: Jesus Christ who now is in heaven Mediator between us and God in glorious body of our flesh. So keep we Lord's Supper, believeing this Man Jesus, God in Heaven, Everlasting Father, the Prince of PEACE! Comforter, Satifaction of our direst need - the enmity removed between God and us. Ephesians 1:19, "GOD-TO-US-WARD" - that is the Desire of the Ages; that is Jesus' Priesthood Perfect! It ALL happened "when He raised Christ from the dead".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Example of you gravel-dry interpretation of the Law of God: "have "JESUS ENTERING JESUS" claiming HE IS the temple that HE ENTERED!"
Exactly! "I am the door"? The 'Door' entering the door? Is metaphor such an obstacle to you? If not, then why not grasp the Sanctuary for metaphor of Jesus personally?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Example of your inability to distinguish: " Were Christ ON EARTH - while CHRIST was on earth HE DID NOT act in the role of priest."
Gross contradiction! WERE Christ on earth, He COULD not act in the role of Priest because it is impossible He still could be ON EARTH. But, WHILE CHRIST was on earth, HE DID act in the role of priest - and in the role of High Priest in Fact, and nowhere more so than in resurrection from the dead - in which act precisely He "offered", i.e., presented, mediated, interceded, His whole role of priestdom as an atoenment for sin and for making peace. This is the sum of the matter - get it and no more blindness; take hold of it, and no more death, but life and gladness and enjoyment!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I'll be a good student and carefully will go through your arguments, one by one and overall - if God will - that's most important. Life is - we don't know- but short! And time is another factor.
so we'll hear again from each other. I'll try daily, and will look for yours, every day. I take this as a holy task. So I must do it in prayer - og bringing honour to the Name of God. Or else it's worthless, and should the sooner the better, stop!

 

[Claudia_T]

If anybody would like to see for themselves what Seventh Day Adventists teach about the Sanctuary, the Judgment, the Atonement...

Go here: http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc.html
and you will see an online book called "The Great Controversy.

Start here at: Chapter 18: An American Reformer

and read all the chapters through to:
Chapter 28: Facing Life's Record


..you can learn about the meaning of 1844, etc

Unfortunately there are many distortions people put out about what we believe and teach that are not true, and so it is better to read it for yourselves.