Seventh Day Adventist Question

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I have answered this "exhaustively" in the posts FROM HEBREWS SHOWING that Were Christ ON EARTH - while CHRIST was on earth HE DID NOT act in the role of priest.

Please read and respond to that point IF you want to refute it.

ThERE IS NO WAY to take Heb 7 or 8 or 9 AS QUOTED above and have "JESUS ENTERING JESUS" claiming HE IS the temple that HE ENTERED!

GE then takes a wild leap AWAY FROM Heb 7-10 and into Rev 3

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:

Wretched and poor and miserable and blind - the 'last' Church. Who says so? You do! All the while you think you are...

Earth to GE - please note the point above and respond to it, when you get back.

still waiting...


Please read and respond to that point IF you want to refute it.

ThERE IS NO WAY to take Heb 7 or 8 or 9 AS QUOTED above

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bob Ryan on Sept 3, quoting me (“EVERYTHING at and of Christ's Second Coming is DEPENDENT upon his FINISHED work in and through resurrection "from the dead", and its IMMEDIATE and INSEPARABLE "exaltation" to the right hand of God Almighty "in heavenly places"), replying,
“This is the "common ground" that both agree on. It can not be used as support for the "differences".
BOTH views AGREE that the Atonement is FINISHED by the time of the 2nd coming because Christ's work as High Priest has ended at then AS WELL as the Atoning Sacrifice being completed at the Cross.
BOTH views accept that the Atoning Sacrifice is the core and foundation for the process of Atonement as God instructs in Lev 16.”

Ansers GE:
This is blindness! Every possible difference between truth and error is referred to in my remark, yet you are able to find “common ground" that both agree on”. ‘My’ view, first of all does not allow “the process of Atonement as” Seventh Day Adventism distorts the Moment of it in the resurrection of Christ from the dead. This remark can in no way “be used as support for the "differences"”. Your ‘kind’ remark only gives away both your cunning and flattering method as your blunt ineptness to grasp the true meaning of my observation.
I not in the least had “the 2nd coming” in mind and it is not in the least implied here. Nor do I believe any of “Christ's work as High Priest has ended at then AS WELL as the Atoning Sacrifice being completed at the Cross”. Where you find ‘ground’ for such senseless conclusions in my remark, only you will be able to know!

I won’t further react to your objection to my words, “Atonement had been DONE; and it had been OBTAINED FULLY; and what is most wonderful about this, is that atonement "IS FINISHED" "TO-US-WARD", with, “Nice "waxing eloquent" - poor exegesis, no text” – except to say that it is your best so far, seeing at least it not again is you, treating the Scriptures directly (being unable to recognise the “text” I in fact quoted), but criticising me. This comment of yours then I shall indeed accept as a compliment!

You once again confirm your inability with your next ‘argument’ against me. I note it here verbatim – it speaks for itself,
“

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn: “Note the Greek, how it differs with the NIV. I regard the NIV as a New Age 'translation'. According to the NIV here, "He is the atoning sacrifice for ... (also) the SINS of the whole world." But (your) GR, hasn't got 'sins' – it only says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our (sins) but also for the WHOLE WORLD"!”
"Again" you fail to make your point IN the text. The meaning remains IN the text "For our sins and not for OURS ONLY but also for the whole WORLD"
This is ALSO what the NASB shows.
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. NASB
Showing that the word those is inserted and NOT including the word for SINS again.
Your point is lost again without actual supporting detail IN the text.”

Thanks, Bob Ryan, I couldn’t have done better! Just shows you how Jesus giving Himself as sacrifice for the sins of His elect effectively saves all creation, from collapse and damnation – He having obtained and claimed and received Victory and Final Atonement through resurrection from the dead! The ‘Process’ and Mission, had been accomplished with distinction! Nothing can be ‘built’ upon the ‘foundation’, higher, because Christ’s atonement through sacrifice of Himself is sealed: finished and acceptable, by God, when by the “exceeding greatness of His power He raised Him from the dead”!

The writer wants to show but one thing “IN the text” of “Heb 7 and 8”, and that is not “that the High Priestly work of Christ starts”, but is finished, and that not in a temporary and human manner like the atonement done by priests “on earth”, but from everlasting to everlasting in the one divine moment of the glorification of Christ through and in the receiving of His eternal reward which was Victory and Triumph in the overcoming of all and every adversary, thus creating an – no, thus creating THE eternal PRESENCE of “God-with-us” and of “God-to-us-ward”: Now He is The Mediator, The Intercessor, the High Priest of the “Better Covenant”.
Again: It is the big difference – the very truth of Jesus’ “atonement” through the sacrifice of Himself accomplished and recompensed in resurrection from the dead – which is the one and only difference between Jesus’ Priesthood and that of mortal priests “on earth”.
Now you come and deny, and say, o no! His “atonement” (which is the repair of the breach between God and man) in resurrection is but a void intermediate moment in time – He has not even yet “started”, for your ridiculous ‘reason’ “"AS IF" He had ascended to the Father” not yet – putting everything back into mortal context which is the context of sin, of temporality and of corruptibility – which “is to contradict BOTH the OT and NT”.
In Christ we have God’s condescension to the human race, to sinners, and to this earth and world, to have it redeemed from eternal perishing. And in Christ we have man's ascending to the throne of God in heavens. Christ’s WHOLE LIFE – of dying and of RISING – AVAILED THIS. He had broken the breach and came – the coming God – in Jesus Christ, so that we shall be with Him where He is, which is, “WITH US”!
Never has Christendom experienced the rape of God’s truth in Christ as by this ‘doctrine’ of Seventh Day Adventism! Cultic? Cultic is a nice one!

So what did Jesus mean when He said He had not yet ascended to the Father? Just what he said, the very fact of it confirming once more His victory and accomplishment of mission to bring a sinners-world to at-one-ment with the Divine Presence! Therefore don’t grab me like you do, Mary! I must go to the Father in order to return again at the end of time. You find yourself still within the hold of time because you’re an un-glorified mortal still and is not even believing properly yet – but if I remain on earth, I cannot be the High Priest I am and had become through being raised from the dead again, seated at the right hand of God in heaven!
Here your schemes fall in ruins, SDA’s! God had done a proper job; you tell Him he must return to like an earthly priest go finish what He in the first place had set out to do – and must have failed to do, seeing He would need another two thousand years plus to finish atonement!

 

[BobRyan]

GE said --

The writer wants to show but one thing “IN the text” of “Heb 7 and 8”, and that is not “that the High Priestly work of Christ starts”, but is finished,

As Link points out - sometimes I have to wade through a lot of non-answer in your post to get to an actual point.

In the case above - you show what you "wish" Heb 7,8,9 and 10 had said about the High Priesthood of Christ ENDING while on earth.

But instead (as already pointed out ) Heb 8:4 says that IF Christ WERE on earth He would NOT be a priest.

And the text makes the point that after ascending to heaven HE ENTERED into the heavenly temple - MADE by GOD - MADE without hands INTO heaven ITSELf.

you repeatedly twist this around to say that "CHRIST ENTERED HIMSELF" by making Him the sanctuary... what kind of nonsense is that Gerhard?

Then you "blend that error" with the idea that He ENDED his priestly work of Heb 7-10 BEFORE Hebrews says IT STARTED!

With that kind of jumpled logic - how in the world are you going to "exegete something"?

I just don't see that you have any place to go with this.

I could post the texts in Hebrews that raise all the unanswered points addressed to you so far - "again" - but I am not sure you would answer them now any more than you did before.

But still.. I will post it again - just to remind you of what you are not addressing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />GE said --

The writer wants to show but one thing “IN the text” of “Heb 7 and 8”, and that is not “that the High Priestly work of Christ starts”, but is finished,

As Link points out - sometimes I have to wade through a lot of non-answer in your post to get to an actual point.

In the case above - you show what you "wish" Heb 7,8,9 and 10 had said about the High Priesthood of Christ ENDING while on earth.

But instead (as already pointed out ) Heb 8:4 says that IF Christ WERE on earth He would NOT be a priest.

And the text makes the point that after ascending to heaven HE ENTERED into the heavenly temple - MADE by GOD - MADE without hands INTO heaven ITSELf.

you repeatedly twist this around to say that "CHRIST ENTERED HIMSELF" by making Him the sanctuary... what kind of nonsense is that Gerhard?

Then you "blend that error" with the idea that He ENDED his priestly work of Heb 7-10 BEFORE Hebrews says IT STARTED!

With that kind of jumpled logic - how in the world are you going to "exegete something"?

I just don't see that you have any place to go with this.

I could post the texts in Hebrews that raise all the unanswered points addressed to you so far - "again" - but I am not sure you would answer them now any more than you did before.

But still.. I will post it again - just to remind you of what you are not addressing.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

What is up with that?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Last post lost somehow. Must be for good, because I lost my temper!

I do not maintain, Bob Ryan, Christ finished His work as Priest "while on earth" - I maintain IN RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.

Now in Hebrews 5 I have underlined 6 places, in 6, 7 references, in 7, 29; in chapter 8, 9; in 9, 25; in 10, 13 places, all refrring to the one thing, and I'll quote just 10:29 to make my point, where Christ is supposed as "thought worthy", "the Son of God", and His blood, "the blood of the Covenant WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED", AN HOLY THING, and as "having done satisfaction "unto the Spirit pf Grace". This is atonement FULLY, and this, CHrist obtained fully, IN RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. What more do you expect of Christ to obtain as High Priest?
This is why Jesus could say - in fact assure the believer - that he SHALL NOT COME IN THE JUDGEMENT, because he in embodidied in Him, and represented by Him, and atoned for by Him and in Him. Completely, once for ever.
You concept of how many more judgements awaiting the saved, are not only rediculous, but exactly answers 10:29, "he, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith He (christ) was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done respite unto the Spirit of grace"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But what you find rediculous is this, 9:11 and on, that "Christ being COME and High Priest ... BY a ... perfect TABERNACLE ... by His own blood HE ENTERED IN ONCE INTO THE HOLY PLACE (we have referred to re 10:29, "the holy thing" the Son of God) HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION". This you find laughable, Christ entering Christ as it were! I maintian, this He obtained when and as he entered in - all referring to Him in resurrection from the dead.
But no, you maintian it did not evenr "START" here, but that it started "at the cross" - which is true, but not even half the truth, because you just pass the resurrection as an atonement - THE atonement - fully and perfectly OBTAINED and "MADE".

 

[BobRyan]

By His own blood - with the sacrifice of His own blood - as High priest AFTER having made that sacrifice HE ENTERED into the TRUE sanctuary in heaven "itself" --

Christ did not "enter Christ" by His blood. Those kinds of nonsensical twistings of the chapter solve nothing and create more problems then they dodge.

Christ obtained eternal redemption for us AT The Cross - but HE CONTINUES His gospel work as HE predicted in HIS chapter on Atonement in Lev 16 -- in HIS role of HIGH PRIEST FOR US -- who NOW serves As our HIGH PRiest..

Here the details are "Again".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

9:24, "For Christ is NOT entered into the holt lace of the figure of the temple made with hands, but into heaven ITSELF, NOW to appear IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD" - which nothing but Jesus Christ Himself who NOW "is entered into" His own rest as God - by and throug and in resurrection from the dead.
This is what you find strange and unacceptable, that the writer could find it unecessary to every time repeat "IN resurrection from the dead", because it is his PREsupposition - His fact upon which he builds each and every of his illustrations of How Jesus made a full atonement. He in fact does not use the word "resurrected" or "raised", once (13:20 says God "BROUGHT Him BACK from the dead") - presupposing jesus' resurrection for every and all his MANY references to the ATONEMENT He had made!
See!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No Bob Ryan, the nonsensical twistings are yours and are the cornerstones of your heavenly Most Holy only recently occupied for Jesus to finished an atonement He had not finished when He rose from the dead ON EARTH which at that moment was of all time and of space and creation the centre and focal point - "THE HIGHEST" AND "THE MOST HOLY". This is the solving of every difficulty you think it creates.

 

[BobRyan]

1. The Gospel presents us with Christ as "THE advocate between God and man"

1Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

2. "We" are also there by faith - with Christ - receiving the benefits of His intercession - salvation, forgiveness of new sins.

1John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

John shows us that continued pardon for sin even AFTER being saved depends on Christ's role before God as our advocate - our representative - our high priest.

Heb 6:
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,
20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 4
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

3. Central to the time when Christ is IN the MHP doing His High Priestly work - we find multitudes are in there as well and
court is "in session".

Daniel 7:
9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.

The "reason" court is "in session" is because the unfallen beings have a great issue to resolve based on exactly HOW God
administers the plan of Salvation

- the Gospel must be both "just" and "merciful" - rather than "arbitrary".
- A free will "systems" relies upon God "persuading by compelling evidence" rather than "compelling by arbitrary force".

Notice that "WE HAVE a High Priest" -- NOW -- it is right there - impossible to "keep dodging".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I fins all the "details" comprehended by and in the one act of God "by the exceeding greatnes of His power". SDo does He today live tyo make intercession before the throne of God "TO-US-WARD" - as "God with us". This is the Gospel, simple, magnificent, awe-inspiring, adoreable, EMBRACEBLE because reachable and understandable. He who believes in ME, shall not go into judgement" - because He bore it for us. "HE IS NOT FAR, BUT NEAR" - God "drew near" in Jesus, and united with humanity in Jesus for ever when He rose fro the dead. It is "redemption" "completed" and it differs no iota from "atonement MADE".

 

[BobRyan]

So when does the "IN MHP" part of the Day of Atonement scenario end?

Certainly it is obvious that at the second coming - Christ has already ceased to function as our High Priest seeking forgiveness for newly committed sins
(Heb 9:28).

But is it possible that His ministry in that heavenly sanctuary ends even BEFORE He actually appears in the sky?

Might this be JUST like the days of Noah - where the door closes seven DAYS before the rain actually falls?
Before you see the storm in the sky - it is already too late?

Rev 15 tells us that in fact the ministry has already stopped BEFORE the 2nd coming - in fact it stopped at the start of the plagues. The actual wording in the Rev 15 text - is only found (in parallel) in two unique instances in the OT.

Notice below - that in all three of these cases the point is made "explicitly" that ministry has stopped - no one is in the sanctuary. This indicates a "change" from the clear distinctives regarding the "multitudes" - "our own presence by faith" and "The man Jesus Christ" 1Tim 2:5 as emphasized in scripture regarding "The high priestly work of Christ".

Revelation 15
1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.
...
5 After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened,
6 and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes.
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Just as in Rev 13 we see the explanation for the multi-part beast of a lion, bear and leopard explained in Daniel 7, so the explanation of Rev 15 having the smoke fill the temple is explained in the OT - as the priestly ministry "ceasing" during that time.

1Kings 8:10-11
10 It happened that when the priests came from the holy place, the cloud filled the house of the LORD,
11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD.

Exodus 40:34-35
32 When they entered the tent of meeting, and when they approached the altar, they washed, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
33 He erected the court all around the tabernacle and the altar, and hung up the veil for the gateway of the court. Thus Moses finished the work.
34 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35 Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

I am thinking that it is impossible to miss the fact that the same wording, the same sequence is in use. But in the Rev 15 case it gives even MORE detail in showing us that NOT until the PLAGUES are finished - may anyone enter.

This further shows the connection between intercession - ministry and the separation of the wrath of God from coming upon mankind while we have an intercessor.

Unlike the case in Rev 13, Rev 15 does not leave us to guess as to the meaning from the clear OT examples. Instead it tells us exactly what has stopped and for how long- no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

And of course we know that only ONE person was working/ministering in the Heavenly temple with regard to a priesthood - sins - a sacrifice - mercy - forgiveness
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

And of course - the fact that the time has come for the "wrath of God to be poured out" has every indication of intercession that has stopped. Adding that no one is ministering in the temple during this time - in Rev 15 makes the point explicitly.

Revelation 16
1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, ""Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.''

Without the benefits of the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary - it is clear that the conditions of Rev 22 have been reached -

Rev 22:
10 And he said to me, "" Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 "" Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.''

 

[BobRyan]

Notice that "WE HAVE a High Priest" -- NOW -- it is right there - impossible to "keep dodging".

1. The Gospel presents us with Christ as "THE advocate between God and man"

1Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 4
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I had a wonderfull old friend - now passed away - who new the Bible by heart, he could recite all and every of your texts and any other. He never believed your stuff. He was a believer though, and saved eternally! Nobody shall deny. He used to be SDA. He died broken hearted. He hated the 'Investigative Judgement'. Point I want to make: Repition of texts won't solve the problem. The Gospel itself must. Bottomline is the SDA's has no inkling of what the Gospel really means.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here in South Africa it is beautiful Sabbath's morning, birds singing, the garden such a pleasure, God is great and mercifull - I may enjoy all such wonderful blessings. I must be more positive, and appreciate your spiritual fellowship to sweeter ends. Bob Ryan, I deal on this 'doctrine' of an 'Investigative Judgement' ONLY insofar as it bears on God's Day of Rest and Worship for His People. For this reason I shall maintain God FINISHED ALL HIS WORKS ON THE SEVENTH DAY, HE THUS SPEAKING IN THE SON IN THESE LAST DAYS. "WE SEE JESUS". "Follow peace with all, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" a root of bitterness brings defilement, says this writer. I wouldn't want that. God forgive me!

It is difficult though.

But I would plead: See Jesus. Look at His whole work. See God Triumphant even over our pettiness! His done a great work - a finished work - a work, one work, "the works of my Father". Jesus finished it - He lived out God's love towards us men; saving us. So we may rest and have assurance as good as His obtainement no less - which is the saving of our souls. We need Jesus. We constantly for life need Him today in this capacity of King, High Priest and God for ever. The Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of 'heaven'. Jesus ESTABLISHED it - He laid the foundation. But that very establishment is the completion and perfection of it once for all. Jesus interceds for us today in capacity of Accomplisher - Author and Finisher of our faith. He at no moment in time since He "availed" and "obtained in resurrection from the dead" not acted or not existed in lesser capacity. That is what He Himself our Judgement eversince had been, in fact - whereas before had been by promise just as good as fact - because by oath of God!

 

[BobRyan]

I suppose I "could" choose to tell a story saying "I knew a person once that was nOT an SDA - but later became one and was convinced that his former denomination was all wrong even though in that former church he knew a lot of Bible texts".

In fact I suppose I could say that of almost all the former pastors that later became SDAs.

But that does not actually SOLVE The problem at hand does it? (That is -- if you actually had references to the Word of God that showed me to be in error - as I have shown you in previous two posts)

It would simply a convenient story - to avoid the devastating problem caused by the texts being referenced.

It would be to cling to tradition and bias instead of the Word of God.

So why not just give up ideas that are debunked by the Word of God Gerhard?

The same God that put those texts IN the Bible also loves you and will show you that THE TRUTH is not really as bad as you have imagined it to be.

The Gospel will create a LOVE of TRUTH - instead of the need to avoid it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"So why not just give up ideas that are debunked by the Word of God Gerhard?"

Bob Ryan, just look at this last post of yours - and many like it of before, where you shout 'Scripture! Scriptures!; Text! Text!', and then there is not a word of it given!

I have cited and extracted time and again to substantiate (if not prove) my stance.
Now my "idea" in this case is: "How much more (whereby the writer means, how much more FULLY) shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience" - that is, make you free, that is, save you, that is, atone you FULLY?
Where and when does this happen in actual fact? AS Christ "offered Himself without spot to God". When and where was that in actual fact? When and where the Fath "glorified" Him, and where and when God declared: Thou art my Son, Today have I begotten Thee!" Where and when was that in actual fact? "Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was ... declared the Son of God with poer, according to the Spirit of Holiness (God the Spirit) BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD!" When and where did WE, receive this atonement, FULLY? "By Whom we have received grace (Past Tense, Perfect Presence Sense).
Thank you.
Reply?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Don't just post lengthy out of context passages. "Man shall live by EVERY word of God" carefully analised and applied - properly taken in and assimilated. So that it makes perfect sense and prtrays perfect truth of Christ enetering into fellowship of the trinity whil being raised from the dead High Priest making atonement fully in Divine Moment!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Bob Ryan, 10 Sept, "Apparently the NT shows the heavenly sanctuary to be REAL - to be a PATTERN SEEN after which the literal earthly sanctuary was modelled.

So it is REAL. Built by God without hands. AND it has functional areas just as God says.

GE:
No, “a PATTERN SEEN”, is NOT ‘real’ – it is your imagination that is unreal! “The PATTERN” was “SEEN” - God ‘modelled’ the ‘pattern’, ‘after which the literal earthly sanctuary’ was built with HANDS – with hands of humans. It – the “PATTERN SEEN” – was NOT, “Built by God without hands”, and had NO “functional areas” because a ‘pattern’ is not ‘functional’ – it only serves as ‘model’.

BR:
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, SEE, He says, THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.

GE:
Moses “WAS SHOWN THE PATTERN” – he was not shown “the heavenly things” of which the ‘pattern’ was a pattern, itself.
He saw “THE PATTERN”, “ON THE MOUNTAIN” – he was not shown any ‘pattern’, in heaven! Moses was shown a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, on the mountain. “According to the Law”, that ‘copy and shadow’, “serve(d) (as) a copy and shadow” of “the tabernacle he was warned by God to erect”.
But BR can notwithstanding declare, “Apparently the NT shows the heavenly sanctuary to be ... a PATTERN SEEN after which the literal earthly sanctuary was modelled” – which, apparently, is a great and carefully worked out lie, First, because it was not the heavenly sanctuary that was shown Moses, but a pattern or model OF IT - NOT the heavenly sanctuary itself. And it was the ‘pattern’ or ‘model’ FOR what Moses was ordered to build – not a ‘model’ or ‘pattern’ FOR the heavenly sanctuary. Second, it is a great and carefully worked out lie, because the literal earthly sanctuary was BUILT – not ‘modelled’ – after the model, and it was not BUILT after what was NOT ‘shown’ or seen, ‘in heaven’.

So, to say “... it (BOTH the “PATTERN SEEN” and “the heavenly sanctuary”) is REAL”, “(b)uilt by God without hands”, “AND … has functional areas” LIKE the earthly sanctuary, is further elaboration on the lie, the verbosity, “just as God says”, despite!

The heavenly Sanctuary since Christ’s resurrection as before it is impossible and prohibited to be made an image of, because it is Christ in full fellowship of the Trinity – God in His Majesty.