Seventh Day Adventist Question

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
First you admit that John 20:17 IS after the resurrection -- then you condemn me as a liar for pointing out that it is AFTER the resurrection that Christ said "I HAVE NOT YET ascended to the Father".

How can you say those things with a straight face?

In Christ,

Bob

Bob, you can say your 'things with a straight face' because you have no idea of what you are saying yourself!

Why should I admit that John 20:17 is after the resurrection it's most obvious it is? Point is Jesus ascended away from the earth into heaven after His resurrection! Can't you see? After He had finished all the works of God and had been seated King and had been inaugurated High Priest and had done eternal atonement "once for all" -after He HAD DONE ... after He "as God had enetered into His own rest", and "after He had given them rest".
This, is before Jesus ascended to His Father "in heaven"; this is after He had ascended "to the right hand of God"; this is after Jesus' exaltation - which happened - read Ephesians 1:19f 'WHEN HE RAISED CHRIST" - not after!
This is what Hebrews says every time it speaks of Jesus or God or the High Priest "entering".
This is a completed salvation; an atonement once for all and finished unconditionally!

 

[BobRyan]

GE - your dancing combined with bending and twisting the text has not served you --- yet.

You argue that you think Christ began his ministry AFTER being resurrected and then deny the Atoning work of Christ as High Priest AS Defined in that unique Role God describes in Lev 16!!!

GE said

“After His sacrifice and ascension ...”
With these words Bob Ryan means “after” Jesus had been “taken up (into heaven)


...
“when Christ appeared … He entered … through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption” – which is all summed up in one word of act of God Tri-Une: “When God raised Christ from the dead”!

This is no event “after” Jesus had been “taken up (into heaven) and a cloud received Him out of their sight”,
...
It is, His ‘entrance’ most glorious and triumphant, into “the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption”, and thus, “having obtained eternal” High Priestly status and office – thus having executed this High Priestly duty of “atonement made” in the event of His rising from death and grave – He being “brought again from the dead”, Hb.13:20, “through the blood of the everlasting covenant.”

Having failed to make your case about THE CROSS as NOT being "The ATONING Sacrifice" that John claims in 1John 2:2 NIV -- you now admit that only AFTER His resurrection -- (Indeed AFTER John 20 "I have NOT YET ASCENDED to the Father"_

Only sometime AFTER that - could He have BEGUN His Role as High Priest -- EVEN in your own erroneous views you retain that truth.

Nice going.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here is my Sabbath's message to you, Bob Ryan, from the Congregation I attend on Sabbath Days, seeing I am not able to attend an earthly,

BR:
“... In Rev 22 we see that the Throne of God is where the Tree of Life is. IT is all in the New Jerusalem that comes down OUT OF HEAVEN. ... When Christ GOES to the FATHER - He is going to HEAVEN.”

GE:
The Tree of Life is where the Throne of God is. The New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven comes from God. Heaven is where God is – not God is where heaven is.
God is everywhere; so this earth is in heaven as much as any other place. This earth particularly is where the throne of God is, seeing this planet is the centre of all His power and rule, love and out-going grace through Jesus Christ “to us-ward”.

God descended to planet earth, on the Mount of Olives, where Joseph’s grave was, and raised Christ from the dead; and “exalted” Him “and set / seated / enthroned (crowned / anointed) Him at His own right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and power and might and dominion and every name that is named not only in this world / creation / universe / age, but also in that which is to come; and hath put all under His feet, and gave Him, the Head over all, to the Church … the fullness that filleth all in all :- when He raised Christ from the dead.”
In the language of the writer of Hebrews, it actualised when “The God of Peace brought Him again from the dead”; when “He entered in into His own rest as God”. (13:20; 4:10) “So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my Helper. … (For) ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem … to the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn … and to God the Judge of all … to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant … (to) Him from heaven … Let us go forth therefore unto Him … we have an Alter … The High Priest for sin … Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.” – Hebrews 13:20, 6; 12:22-25; 13:13, 10, 8.
Matthew declared: “I am with you always!”
So, once more: Where is ‘heaven’? It is where God is, and us, through the faith of His Christ. For God ‘came down’ and raised Christ from the grave in the garden of Golgotha. Heaven was where God is – upon the earth in that place where they crucified and buried Him, and God raised Him up again to highest Divine Glory. Here God “wrought”, and Jesus entered upon High Priestly office to bring atonement to an end.
Who is “ignoring the details and denying the obvious”? Bob Ryan!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quotin Bob Ryan,
"Having failed to make your case about THE CROSS as NOT being "The ATONING Sacrifice" that John claims in 1John 2:2 NIV -- you now admit that only AFTER His resurrection -- "

I do not deny "THE CROSS as NOT being "The ATONING Sacrifice". Dying and death - even that of Jesus Christ IN HIGH PRIESTLY execution of office - is atonement "wrought"; atonement is only peace made in victory over enemy dying and death ('the Cross'). And only when overcome and vanquished through life, even the dying and death of Jesus Christ becomes atonement : finished and perfected "once for all", then and there in the resurrection OF HIM from the dead!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Bob Ryan from another thread, 'Do SDA's keep the Sabbath?' - the subject of the 'IJ' got divided between the two threads -

Quote: "If you had taken the time to include YOUR remark with MY RESPONSE you would SEE that YOUR REMARK Makes CHRIST the Sanctuary so that WHEN the text says CHRIST ENTERED THE SANCTUARY your OWN spin of that - turns it into "CHRIST ENTERING CHRIST".

Yes, alright Bob. I accept; I agree with your conclusion. I shall abide by it. You are correctly expressing the consequence of 'my' view: It is Christ the Sanctuary of God; it is 'Christ entering Christ'.
It is not my metaphore though for the Mystery of Godliness - it is yours. We are speaking of unspeakable things here; of things believed - things of faith. And that just may be the point of difference. You see the heavenly sanctuary as some physical building; I see it as the Essence of God. As Schilder put it, as Christ who in resurrection entered into full fellowship of the Trinity. That to me is ATONEMENT FINISHED - not promised for two thousand years later, but fact of truth, "yesterday, and today and tomorrow the same - Jesus Christ" whereby we NOW, HAVE, salvation FULLY!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Erratum!
On Oct 8, 2.02, I wrote:
"Dying and death - even that of Jesus Christ IN HIGH PRIESTLY execution of office - is atonement "wrought"; atonement is only peace made in victory over enemy dying and death ('the Cross'). And only when overcome and vanquished through life, even the dying and death of Jesus Christ becomes atonement : finished and perfected "once for all", then and there in the resurrection OF HIM from the dead!"

I left out the negation: Dying and death ('the Cross')- even that of Jesus Christ IN HIGH PRIESTLY execution of office - is _NOT_ atonement "wrought"; atonement is only peace made in victory over enemy dying and death.

To bring to Bob Ryan's senses how I understand 'Final Atonement', here follows a short chronology of its events:

14 Nisan: Sacrifice made
16 Nisan: Final Atonement perfected; Christ in resurrection from the dead ascending the Throne; Christ being exalted High Priest forever to the order of Milchisedec being crowned Eternal King of Peace.
40 days after: Jesus "taken up into heaven"
10 days later: Holy Spirit poured out - God's presence in Jesus Christ with his Body on earth sealed eternally. From this moment nourishment being ministered directly from the Head to the Body by joints and bands of Omnipotent Mediatorship.

 

[BobRyan]

In Lev 16 God shows us that the ATONEMENT starts with the ATONING SACRIFICE of the Lord's goat -- Christ. It then CONTINUES with the unique role of the High Priest in that once a year service.

Heb 4 says Christ is NOW working for us as High priest.

Heb 8 declares that while Christ was on earth (and even were He to appear on earth now) He is NOT serving as "a priest AT ALL".

These facts are impossible to obfuscate, ignore or simply pontificate away.

See?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
“Is it your confession now that the FULL Day of Atonement process DID NOT END with the slaying of the "Lord's Goat" at the start of the chapter?”

GE:
What silly question! The ‘full day’ of ‘the Day of Atonement’ ended not with “the slaying of the "Lord's Goat"” – it began with it. But the Scripture says that the priest “on that day shall make atonement” (30). He had to “make an end of atonement”; he didn’t just begin some ‘process’ of atonement that had to be completed at some later stage. He completed everything, “an atonement for all the congregation of Israel”. (17) “On that day”, “once a year”, 30, 34. “He shall come not at all times into the holy within the veil before the mercy seat (the ‘Most Holy’).” (2)
Jesus, made atonement, “that day”, “ONCE FOR ALL” – perfect, finished, atonement!
The priests were only mortals, while Jesus conquered death. So therefore – as the text describes it – when and as the earthly priests “came out” of, and appeared from, the temple, they actually completed the day’s work of atonement. (17-18) The temple therefore resembles death and grave, for as Jesus was “brought again from the dead” (Hb.13:20), He so made a finishing of His work of atonement for eternity. “When he hath made an end of reconciling the Holy, and the Tabernacle of the Congregation (the Church of the Elect) and the altar (the preaching of the Word), he shall BRING THE LIVE goat”.
The two goats are both symbols of Christ. Only Christ had the power to both lay down his life and to take it up again. The animals had power for neither. So the sacrificed goat showed forth Christ as Sacrifice; and the live goat showed forth Christ in resurrection of life carrying away into oblivion “their iniquities” He made sacrifice for.
After he had made atonement in every respect, the High Priest had to enter the tabernacle to “put off his garments” of High Priestly Office, and to put on the clothes of an ordinary priest straight away – only because he was a mortal sinner. But Christ having risen ‘incorruptible’, put on royal robe, and was crowned King unconquerable and holy “for ever and ever”. (Ex.15:18)
As with mortal things “the life of the flesh is in the blood”, with the Immortal the life of life is in the life of Him who rose from the dead. “I have given it to you on the altar to make an atonement for your souls …”, says God. With God, it is the Life of God “that maketh an atonement for the soul.” God gave His Life – His only begotten Son –and thus in raising Him from the dead – in the One – made reconciliation and atonement for all our iniquities!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Bob Ryan,
"Heb 4 says Christ is NOW working for us as High priest."

No objection! Verse 14, "Seeing then that we have a High Priest (who is High Priest to the order of Milchisedec ... (who) like unto the Son of God (Who) abideth forever (High) Priest for ever, 7:3)

When the writer wrote this, he declared, "(High Priest) that is passed into the heavens". Past Perfect - for ever Jesus the same yesterday and today and for ever. 7:16: "Who was made (High Priest) not after the law of a carnal (mortal) commandment, but after (the Law) of the Power of an endless life."
Christ rose from the dead and was exalted to this position and office eternally - not for only now - because He had "worked" that High Priestly work of His acoording to Divine Perfecteion in being "MADE" High Priest forever IN RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. That is the total Christian Faith. Jesus had completed atonement for our sins IN "the bringing in of a better hope", IN "having drawn nigh unto God" - all descriptions of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.
SDA never mention this; they never think of it; the fear it; they loath it. For NO reason it proves them wrong in their doctrine of an "investigative judgement".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have had one word so far to tell you, and have told you this word a hundred times. You have not heard it or noticed it - not once!
That word is the resurrection of Jesus Christ in which and through which and with which and by which Christ "finished all the works of God", and FINISHED the Divine work of High Priest; and FINISHED the DIVINE work of King; and FINISHED the work of Prophet and FINISHED the work of God and of Saviour and of Mediator and of Intercessor - "ALL the works of GOD"!
This is He, Whom Christians believe in and worship. If you believe with your heart ... you shall be saved! "He who believes in the Son shall not enter into the judgement!" for he has already gone right through all Divine judgement through faith "IN HIM"!

 

[BobRyan]

If the argument is that AT His resurrection He Went to heaven as our High priest - then you STILL have a problem. Because the text in John 20 is AFTER His resurrection and it SHOWS that He had NOT "YET ascended to the Father".

Point - Game - Match

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There is no better answer to error than a positive statement of faith.
So here's Calvin to say it for both of us,

Harmony on Luke 22
since Christ has died and been received into heaven, we ought to be led from the contemplation of the cross to heaven, that death and the restoration of life may be found to agree.

Mt.27:57 / Mk.16:1,
“Now as the resurrection of Christ, by its quickening vigour, penetrated every sepulcher, so as to breathe life into the dead, so it abolished those outward ceremonies.”

Commentary on Isaiah
… although that ceremony has been abolished, nevertheless the truth remains; because Christ died and rose again, so that we have a continual sabbath; that is, we are released from our works, that the Spirit of God may work mightily in us.


Harmony on Mt.27
much more will Christ, who has now vanquished death, stretch out his hand to us from his throne, to admit us to be partakers of life. For since Christ has “nailed to his cross the handwriting which was opposed to us”, (Colossians 2:14,) and has destroyed death and Satan, and in his resurrection has triumphed over the prince of the world …


For Christ is called the first-born from the dead, (Colossians 1:18,) and the first-fruits of those who rise, (1 Corinthians 15:20,) because by his death he commenced, and by his resurrection he completed, a new life …


Harmony Lk.24:47
Till his resurrection, therefore, Christ was not acknowledged to be any thing more than the Redeemer of the chosen people alone; and then, for the first time, was the wall of partition (Ephesians 2:14) thrown down, that they who had been strangers, (Ephesians 2:19,) and who had formerly been scattered, might be gathered into the fold of the Lord.


Harmony Mt.28”18

He expressly calls himself the Lord and King of heaven and earth, because, by constraining men to obey him in the preaching of the gospel, he establishes his throne on the earth; and, by regenerating his people to a new life, and inviting them to the hope of salvation, he opens heaven to admit to a blessed immortality with angels those who formerly had not only crawled on the world, but had been plunged in the abyss of death. Yet let us remember that what Christ possessed in his own right was given to him by the Father in our flesh, or--to express it more clearly--in the person of the Mediator; for he does not lay claim to the eternal power with which he was endued before the creation of the world, but to that which he has now received, by being appointed to be Judge of the world. Nay, more, it ought to be remarked, that this authority was not fully known until he rose from the dead; for then only did he come forth adorned with the emblems of supreme King. To this also relate those words of Paul:
he emptied himself, (eJauto<n ejke>nwse,) therefore God hath exalted him, and given to him a name which is above every other name, (Philippians 2:7, 9.)
And though, in other passage the sitting at the right hand of God is placed after the ascension to heaven, as later in the order of time; yet as the resurrection and the ascension to heaven are closely connected with each other, with good reason does Christ now speak of his power in such magnificent terms.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
If the argument is that AT His resurrection He Went to heaven as our High priest - then you STILL have a problem. Because the text in John 20 is AFTER His resurrection and it SHOWS that He had NOT "YET ascended to the Father".

Point - Game - Match

The argument is that AT His resurrection heaven came down to the sepulcher where God then was working by the exceeding greatness of His power raising Christ from the dead, setting Him at His right hand, crowning Him King, making Him Lord and High Priest. He Went to heaven AS our High Priest ordained and appointed and anointed in and by and through resurrection from the dead. Then I have NO problem left! "Because the text in John 20 is AFTER His resurrection and it SHOWS that He had NOT "YET ascended to the Father" - which was something yet to be done ON STRENGTH of what already had been accomplished, fully and perfectly - to provide for everything Jesus would ever do in future - like to come again!

 

[BobRyan]

#1. That makes a mockery of Christ argument in John 20 "I have NOT YET ascended TO THE FATHER" by turning it into some kind of lawyereeze "but My Father DID come to me so please continue to honor and worship me" -- missing from the text.

#2. Further your argument of "Christ the High Priest ON EARTH" is denied by Heb 8:4 "IF he were on earth HE WOULD NOT BE A PRIEST AT ALL" and by the fact that HEb 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 ALL present Him as our High Priest IN HEAVEN!

The UNIQUE role to be fulfilled in the TRUE Tabernacle IN HEAVEN that God pitched and not man.

Why do you simply ignore the text and believe to the contrary?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I stand by these principles, for now - my time has run out.
But think about it. You have them summarised in your last post. It is all there now for you to grasp. You should only discover the actual and divine meaning of Jesus' resurrection in, and for, the whole matter. Make a mockery rather of my interpretation of John's text; or make a mockery of what HAPPENED and was FINISHED "when God raised Him from the dead!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE:
The argument is that AT His resurrection heaven came down to the sepulchre where God then was working by the exceeding greatness of His power raising Christ from the dead, setting Him at His right hand, crowning Him King, making Him Lord and High Priest. He Went to heaven AS our High Priest ordained and appointed and anointed in and by and through resurrection from the dead. Then I have NO problem left! "Because the text in John 20 is AFTER His resurrection and it SHOWS that He had NOT "YET ascended to the Father" - which was something yet to be done ON STRENGTH of what already had been accomplished, fully and perfectly - to provide for everything Jesus would ever do in future - like to come again!


BobRyan
October 11, 2005 09:31 PM

#1. That makes a mockery of Christ argument in John 20 "I have NOT YET ascended TO THE FATHER" by turning it into some kind of lawyereeze "but My Father DID come to me so please continue to honor and worship me" -- missing from the text.

GE:
In the very event of Jesus being “raised from the dead” by God “from the dead”, He was “exalted far above every name” in heaven, and “was set at (God’s) own right hand in the heavenlies”. That, was the will of God being “done on earth as it is in heaven”! Heaven is where God is (not God is where heaven is). ‘Heaven’ in that moment was where and when “the God of PEACE brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus that great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the EVERLASTING Covenant.” That was and is ever will be ‘Final’, “Atonement RECEIVED”, “once for all”! “For if when we were enemies were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, MUCH MORE, being reconciled (by His LIFE) shall we be SAVED by His LIFE, not only so, but we ALSO boast and joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ in whom we HAVE RECEIVED atonement reconciliation.” “THEREFORE – (because) we believe on Him that RAISED up Christ from the dead: who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification – being justified by faith we HAVE PEACE WITH GOD through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ro.4:24-25-5:1,11)

“NOT AS BY ONE THAT SINNED”, 5:16 explains! The very same thing Hebrews teaches, that “if He were on earth He should not be a priest”. It not so much is the PLACE, but “He finds fault with THEM” (8) – they all being sinners and mortals who are ‘on earth’ and therefore never “once for all” could make ‘final atonement’. They could not even make atonement momentarily, seeing they were sinners and mortals themselves, but Christ could, because He is “Priest according to the POWER of indestructible LIFE”! (7:17) That LIFE, obtained, manifested, attested and guaranteed in resurrection from the dead “by the exceeding greatness of His power which He WORKED when he raised Christ” and so “entered into His own Rest as God.” God “worked” everything – He finally “rested”; He is Victor having gained Peace and Rest “At-one-ment” – “on the Seventh Day God rested, therefore God blessed the Seventh Day and sanctified it”.

This most basic and loftiest of reasons for the People’s keeping holy of the Sabbath Day, Seventh Day Adventism rejects, and in its place insists on their own fancy of an ‘Investigative Judgement’ for God to finish atonement in.

Yes, in fact, you, Bob Ryan, and the SDA’s, make of the issue of “on earth” a matter of locality, merely, whereas it least means
on earth literally. For Jesus while on earth for NO moment was not High Priest, and King, and Prophet, and God! Or He should have had a beginning and an end and in between should have claimed priesthood “unto himself”. “But no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was …” even Christ as the First and the Last, “King of Peace, Priest of the Most High God … without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but Son of God abiding Priest continually … Consider how great THIS MAN was who received priesthood, without contradiction …” the GREATER who blesses the lesser with justification and atonement and everlasting and full reconciliation to “perfection” (11) and ‘unchangeable’ (12). “It is FAR MORE EVIDENT” who this High Priest was. It is Christ High Priest “while on earth”, but anointed High Priest in being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit, confirming His great claim and calling and appointment by God for ever!

Faith is faith believing this atonement made; faith is faith believing in this High Priest having made full atonement and reconciliation in resurrection from the dead once for all – or is unbelief. Or even worse – is blasphemy!

Chapter 8: “Of the things we have spoken THIS IS THE SUM: We have such an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the Sanctuary, and of the True Tabernacle, WHICH THE LORD PITCHED … for if He were (left) on earth (and not raised from the dead …” He would not have been able or alive to “SERVE” as this High Priest forever. “But now He HAS OBTAINED A MORE EXCELLENT MINISTRY BY HOW MUCH MORE EXCELLENT MINISTRY HE IS THE MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED UPON A BETTER PROMISE.”

Notice that the writer here makes comparison, not between that which is earthly and that which is ‘heavenly’, but between two things, both ‘established’ on the ‘obtainment’ “He has obtained”. It is comparison being made between Christ in suffering and death, and Christ in resurrection from the dead! For here we find the supreme metaphor for the resurrection of Jesus from death and grave, “the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the Sanctuary, and of the True Tabernacle, WHICH THE LORD PITCHED”. “Christ, all in all”. Here is Christ the WHOLE meaning of atonement made, peace established between God and man; forgiveness of sins earned and reckoned, justification and reconciliation made and insured unto glorification.

Read Hebrews 8 verse 1; then read Ephesians 1:20, “Which He wrought in Christ WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD AND SET HIM …” Read Hebrews 8 verse 1; then read Philippians 2:6-11, where Jesus in resurrection from the dead is said to have been “highly exalted”! “And be found in Him … having the righteousness that is through the faith of Christ … that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His suffering, and being made conformable to His death if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead … for our conversation is in heaven from whence also we look for the Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ … according to THE WORKING WHEREBY HE IS ABLE …”, which is, “THE WORKING OF HIS MIGHTY POWER WHICH HE WROUGHT IN CHRIST WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD” – returning to this key text.

Bob Ryan, you said the words, “Christ entering Christ”, but unwilling to believe it was God who in pitching the Tabernacle of His glorified body, brought back LIFE from the dead again, into that True Tabernacle thus having “wrought” Final Atonement.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But let us return to your statement, October 11, 2005 09:31 PM,
“#1. That (The argument is that AT His resurrection heaven came down to the sepulchre where God then was working by the exceeding greatness of His power raising Christ from the dead, setting Him at His right hand, crowning Him King, making Him Lord and High Priest.) makes a mockery of Christ’s argument in John 20 "I have NOT YET ascended TO THE FATHER" by turning it into some kind of lawyereeze "but My Father DID come to me so please continue to honor and worship me" -- missing from the text.”

We have seen ‘heaven is where God is; not God is where heaven is’. ‘Heaven’ was (and is) where in that moment Jesus rose from the dead. This was (and is) the ‘heaven’ to which Jesus “ascended” and was “exalted” to, and was “seated” in – that is, this was (and is) the ‘heaven’ where and when and as and in that, Christ was enthroned and anointed King and High Priest forever. This was (and is) Christ’s High Priestly Office being fulfilled and finished and perfected and glorified. This was (and is) Judgement Day. This was (and is) “on the Seventh Day God rested from all His works”. This was (and is) the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God, blessed and sanctified and “made” (Mk.2:27), “for man” – it now having received honour not before attached to it so. Judgement, Atonement and Sabbath Day – who dare sever what God appointed inseparable – all His works finished upon it? How is it possible one could believe God’s Sabbath-Rest yet not God’s atonement accomplished once for all through and in Christ through and in and with resurrection from the dead?
You, Bob Ryan, say that, “The argument that AT His resurrection, heaven came down to the sepulchre where God then was working”, “makes a mockery of Christ’s argument in John 20 "I have NOT YET ascended TO THE FATHER" by turning it into some kind of lawyereeze "but My Father DID come to me so please continue to honor and worship me" -- missing from the text.”

First, Jesus makes no “argument in John 20” for a future, not realised yet atonement! That is an out of context assumption of yours! Yours, is an application of Jesus’ words that ‘makes a mockery’ of His ‘argument’ or intentions.
Jesus said to Mary, “Don’t cling to me, GO … TELL my brethren …!” It makes a difference, does it not, not to omit what Jesus actually said? Jesus makes a statement of witness; not of judgement. Until I have gone to the Father and the Holy Spirit will be Witness unto Me, I send you, Mary, to be witness of my resurrection from the dead! Don’t delay now!
Jesus does not say, I am not Priest – what to say High Priest – yet, because I am still on earth. No, Jesus doesn’t say that! Because he already had appeared before God having done full reconciliation in having risen from the grave. He has already finished High Priestly work and has already been inaugurated and anointed High Priest from eternity to eternity in the moment of the event of His being raised from the dead. From the moment of victory and glory; from that accumulation and confinement of Divine Energy, all Divine power and judgement are dispersed into the future as into the past; from the exceeding greatness of Divine power contained in the acme of the working of the power of God in raising Christ from the dead.
Faith in Jesus Christ is faith unto salvation eternally finished and secured by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. It is the Gospel, simply.
In being raised from the dead Jesus Christ ascends highest Divine Majesty and Glory. His word from the cross, “It is finished”, heralds his exaltation – heralds this, His resurrection from the dead!
So the Father did descend into lowest of death’s hell where and when He “brought Him again from the dead”. Judgement day for all Elect! Judged in the One for the many! Day of release “for man” – day of freedom and extolling the Name of the One Saviour Priest Almighty God – it is Sabbath, Day of Rest of the LORD your God!
Christian Faith is Resurrection Faith or has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ. So truly yes, ‘My Father did come to me to honour and exalt me.’ It is not missing from the text, but is there for the eye of faith to behold.

BR:
“#2. Further your argument of "Christ the High Priest ON EARTH" is denied by Heb 8:4 "IF he were on earth HE WOULD NOT BE A PRIEST AT ALL" and by the fact that Heb 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 ALL present Him as our High Priest IN HEAVEN!”

Consider: “... by the fact that Heb 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 ALL present Him as our High Priest IN HEAVEN!”
Hb.4:14, “Seeing then that we have an High Priest that is past into the heavens …”. Who is He? He is the Man, “Jesus the Son of God … (who) in all points … was like us, yet without sin”. “Let us therefore come boldly unto the Throne of Grace.”
The same thing as ‘Jesus entering Jesus’! What is “the Throne of Grace” other than the Person and “High Priest of our confession”, “Jesus the Son of God” – the resurrected Lord of our faith? He “is past into the heavens” THIS “High Priest”; He did not go to heaven to be made High Priest! His inauguration and anointment and exaltation to Office of High Priest Divine, happened simultaneously with execution of Office of High Priest Divine – it happened in and as and WHERE He was raised from the dead to accomplish and finish atonement for sin. Now His being taken up into the heavens is the honour bestowed upon Him for Peace Made and Victory Obtained in capacity of High Priest and King of Peace.
An earthly conqueror would be escorted to the throne to be crowned in point of time only after his victory. Not so with Christ who was enthroned and crowned in the very act of victory. In fact, His victory in and of resurrection from the dead is the Throne of Jesus and Seat of His Rule, the glory His Crown!
“Let thy Kingdom come” – Jesus’ prayer answered! His Kingdom is on earth, and He is King of His People on earth. When did He become King? In rising from hell into life! What makes Jesus’ Priesthood any different from His Kingship? Absolutely nothing! He today IS High Priest having BECOME High Priest by the anointing of the Holy Spirit with life eternal for Himself and also for the People as Hebrews elaborately describes.
Again, it is simple Christian Faith in an accomplished salvation through Christ by resurrection from the dead! Jesus’ Intercession and position of Mediator ‘in heaven’ would serve no purpose ‘on earth’ were it not for His fulfilled task – on earth! – of having made perfect atonement for sins eternally!

So far for Hebrews the fourth chapter.
Your other references to be considered later.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
The argument is that AT His resurrection heaven came down to the sepulchre where God then was working by the exceeding greatness of His power raising Christ from the dead,

Christ said that HE had "life IN HIMSELF" as the Father also does. He said HE has power to lay down His life AND HE had power to take it up again.

Christ in fact - raises Himself from the dead!

Christ says AFTER His resurrection that "He has NOT YET ASCENDED to the Father". John 20.

When He leaves He tells them "I GO to My Father and to your Father - to My God and to your God".

And Paul makes it clear in Heb 8 "IF He were ON EARTH He would not BE A PRIEST AT ALL" Heb 8:4.

Your point simply does not stand the test of scripture.

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
He Went to heaven AS our High Priest ordained and appointed and anointed in and by and through resurrection from the dead.

Exactly the point that fails given the text pointed out above.

In Hebrews the point is made that NOW He appears IN HEAVEN for us - as our High Priest.

It NEVER argues that PRIOR to ascending to Heaven He was IN HEAVEN as our High Priest.

You simply have to "make that up"

Why do it?

You argue that BEFORE He ascended TO HIS FATHER He was "was set at own right hand in the heavenlies".

There is no such indication in all of scripture.

The point made in Eph 1 is clearly a reference to events AFTER the resurrection - in fact AFTER He ascends to "My Father and your Father - to My God and your God".

Christ GOES to the Father at His ascension.

"IN My Fathers House are many mansions... I GO to prepare a place for you and IF I GO I WILL COME AGAIN and receive you unto Myself" John 14

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Paul argues his third case for “perseverance” holding fast our confession “firm until the end” by pointing the reader to Christ’s salvific role as our High Priest in heaven today. He argues that Christ is our example and high priest – who was tempted in ALL things as WE are – yet is without sin. This is not to say that he was tempted to steal to worship idols – but it is to say that in the basic areas of human temptation, appetite, selfishness, pride etc (though manifest in ways that would not apply to us – such as seen in Matt 4) he was tempted as we are and overcame in this sinful realm as we must.

He is held up as one who understand our struggle and as High Priest desires to give us “Mercy and grace to help in time of need”!

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 7 - CONTRASTING the TWO priesthood systems –

Heb 7
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "" THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT
CHANGE HIS MIND, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER''');
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

The contrast here is based in the qualifications for the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ.
A - humans die - but Christ does not.
B - Humans do not continue to serve the people as priests after their death so there must be MANY-- existed in greater numbers because they were
prevented by death from continuing,
C. Chosen NOT on the basis of Biblical law - but on the basis of "an indestructible Life" Vs 16
D. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God,
he remains a priest perpetually.
E. Christ is prepared to TAKE that Melchizedek priesthood only AFTER death - AFTER making his sacrifice.

Heb 7
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law

The immortal requirement for the Melchizedek priesthood is met by Christ - alone, so the humans were "greater in number" in their priesthood system.

Heb 7:

25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Here we see the FUNCTION of this new priesthood - so unique to Christ.
HE SAVES those who DRAW NEAR to God THROUGH HIM. (vs 25)
He ALWAYS LIVES to make INTERCESSION for them (vs 25)
He is the GUARANTEE of A BETTER COVENANT. (vs 22)

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Again - His qualifications as CONTRASTED to the human qualifications under a human - earthly Aaronic system.

- Holy, Innocent, Undefiled, separated from SINNERs, EXALTED above the heavens.


27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

The CONTRAST again is between the LAW that ordained HUMAN priests - the sons of Aaron -
Humans were "weak, sinnders" who must offer sacrifices FOR THEIR OWN SINS as WELL as that of the people.

To prove that Christ was not establishing a parallel OR a rival priesthood system ON EARTH - after the cross, the writer of Hebrews makes this astounding statement

Heb 8:
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;

This is all so clear and IN THE TEXT - so that if we come to the chapter without and "agenda" we see the issue of priesthood and sacrifices and laws governing who can be a priest and what type of sacrifice is offered are CLEARLY the explicit and obvious topic of the chapter.

But if we "snippet text" and cut a few sentences out of the context of the chapter - we can possibly support any pre-bias.