Seventh Day Adventist Question

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To confirm what has been said so far:
There is only one difference between being “priest on earth” and being ‘High Priest in heaven’, and it is not a difference in or of locality, but of sinlessness and immortality – a difference of priests.
It is the one difference between …
the offering sacrifice of many innocent but helpless victims’ suffering and blood, by many guilty and themselves mortal priests, which only confirms guilt and sin and death …
and …
the of death-and-sin-and-guilt-overcoming-and-vanquishing-Blood-and-Life-Offering of the Mighty Helper and High Priest Immortal, who in dying and rising presents Himself the ‘Acceptable Sacrifice before God’. The death of death in the death of Christ! It says, the life of life in the life of Christ!
A matter of life and death; a matter of finality once for all and for eternity. That was Christ, and is Christ, in offering and presenting Himself on the Right Hand of God, His Majesty, our High Priest ‘in heaven’, in resurrection from the dead.
“The pillar and ground of the truth and without controversy great, is the mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, received up into glory.”
Bob Ryan, there is no other atonement than this! The Atonement that saves utterly! Jesus Christ … in resurrection … from the dead! First He bound God and Himself to and with men and the earth through Death; then He bound men and the earth with Himself and God irrevocably through Life. “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity … for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace” – ‘atonement’! “That He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby. … EVEN WHEN we were dead in sins, hath (God) quickened us TOGETHER WITH Christ … and hath RAISED US UP TOGETHER (with Him) and made us sit together in heaven in Christ Jesus … NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ, FOR HE IS OUR PEACE, who hath made both (ye who were far off together with our Peace), ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition …” – every word is presupposing the death and resurrection of Him from the dead; every word is presupposing the High Priestly work of Christ ON EARTH through the offering or presentation of His LIFE before God – His LIFE both the sacrifice and the ‘reward of His labours’.

Angels were His witness – no mortals – “when He raised Christ from the dead”. We men only received the grace and the privilege to “preach” this Mystery and Manifestation of God in His omnipotence and exceeding greatness of Power. We could not cope with greater duty. Jesus told Mary to go and tell … not that He had to be made High Priest as soon as He had left for heaven.


So what has Hebrews 7 (your second reference) got in store for us? Will it tell us Jesus would not be High Priest if He were on earth, or that Jesus had not been High Priest when He was on earth?
We have already seen that the last verses of chapter 6 belongs with chapter 7, that “we have this hope set before us (of “strong consolation” and “refuge” (6:18)), which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the Forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an High Priest for ever after the order of (an endless life (7:16)).” He “is for us entered”; that is, from “when God raised Him from the dead”. (Eph.1:20) So He ‘went to heaven’, High Priest already. And He had officiated High Priest, already, and before, and as, He, “this same Jesus, (was) taken up into heaven”, and after, and forever, “Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today, and forever, the same” (13:8), High Priest, King and Saviour Lord through resurrection from the dead.
These last verses of chapter 6 belong with chapter 7.
Chapter 7,
“For this … King of Peace, (High) Priest of the most high God … King of Righteousness (having made full atonement for sins) … having neither beginning of days nor end of life (having risen from the dead) … the Son of God, ABIDETH (High) Priest CONTINUALLY.”
“Now consider how great this Man –Jesus– is: … It is far more evident that … there ariseth another Priest (15) WHO IS MADE PRIEST AFTER THE POWER OF AN ENDLESS LIFE. (16) For He testifieth (when He raised Him from the dead), (Be) Thou Priest for ever! (17) … For THE BRINGING IN of a better hope made (all the Law) PERFECT, by the which (Law, or, bringing in through resurrection from the dead of this Man Jesus) WE DRAW NIGH UNTO GOD.”
That is, by this Law and bringing in of the Better Hope, even Jesus Christ from the dead, our sins are atoned for fully, finally and perfectly. “The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art Priest for ever after the order of (an endless life). (21) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a Better Testament. (22)
Indeed, despite their numbers the priests (of the Old Testament) by reason of death continued not (23) BUT THIS MAN BECAUSE HE LIVES FOR EVER, has an unchangeable priesthood.”
There is no transition from ordinary priest to high priest; no service without the sanctuary before service within the sanctuary; no daily and yearly, but only the once-for-all-and-eternity service or priesthood – the High Priestly work of Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead; in ‘the bringing in’ of him from the outer darkness into the light of life without end. “Wherefore also He is ABLE to save them to the UTTERMOST that (in faith) come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them. (25) For such an High Priest became us, holy, vindicated, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens, who needeth not offer up sacrifice (more than once), for that He did, once, when he offered up Himself … the Son, consecrated for evermore.” (28)
“Consecrated for evermore … made higher than the heavens … He ever lives” – wherein the resurrection of Him is foremost in mind of the writer!

We have seen from chapter 7, Jesus’ High Priestly work done on earth, as condition of His intercession before the throne of God, and in fact on, the throne of God. I for one, could not see anything that however vaguely imply a Judgement started in heaven in the year of our earth of 1844, wherein only, the Lord Jesus began His work of High Priest.

 

[BobRyan]

GE said
So what has Hebrews 7 (your second reference) got in store for us? Will it tell us Jesus would not be High Priest if He were on earth,

Heb 8:4 already makes that case - do you think that each chapter of Hebrews should be dedicated to reminding us not to make the same mistake you have made - or will Heb 8:4 "alone" do?

GE
or that Jesus had not been High Priest when He was on earth?

Heb 7 DOES make the point (as does chapter 8) that Christ NOW serves as our High Priest IN heaven!

You keep "imagining" a text that says "Christ served as our High Priest ON EARTH at one time".

And you keep coming up short.

You Claim that in Heb 7 you saw the text say "Christ served as High Priest ON EARTH"

GE said We have seen from chapter 7, Jesus’ High Priestly work done on earth,

But then you failed to find a text actually saying that -- in all of scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Hebrews 7 - CONTRASTING the TWO priesthood systems –
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Heb 7
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "" THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT
CHANGE HIS MIND, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER''');
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

The contrast here is based in the qualifications for the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ.
A - humans die - but Christ does not.
B - Humans do not continue to serve the people as priests after their death so there must be MANY-- existed in greater numbers because they were
prevented by death from continuing,
C. Chosen NOT on the basis of Biblical law - but on the basis of "an indestructible Life" Vs 16
D. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God,
he remains a priest perpetually.
E. Christ is prepared to TAKE that Melchizedek priesthood only AFTER death - AFTER making his sacrifice.
</font>[/QUOTE]You argue that "ABOVE THE HEAVEN" as written above IN Heb 7 should be taken as "WHILE ON EARTH and NOT in Heaven".

But that is clearly -- your imagination saying "ON EARTH" instead of "IN HEAVEN".

So what now?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Heb 4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

</font>[/QUOTE]Paul consistently shows thw work of Christ FOR US - IN HEAVEN as our High Priest in the TRUE tabernacle that God pitched not man.

You keep trying to rework this into "Christ ON EARTH as our High Priest" - but text after text denies your view.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
1John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

John shows us that continued pardon for sin even AFTER being saved depends on Christ's role before God as our advocate - our representative - our high priest.

Heb 6:
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,
20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

</font>[/QUOTE]These texts show Christ IN HEAVEN at the right hand of the Father - serving as our HIGH PRIEST.

The "High Priest ON EARTH" not heavn - idea GE is promoting is totally absent from the text.

Hebrews 4
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Going on with exegesis of chapter 8, now, and time for paying attention to your make or break text, verse 4,
“If He were on earth He would not be a priest at all”.
You out of context put this statement of Hebrews, next to you “snippet” from Jesus’ remark in John 20:7, that Mary mustn’t touch Him because He had not gone to His Father yet.
Why on earth would Jesus allow Mary to ‘touch’ Him at all if the fact He had not returned to His Father yet was any reason she should not? Why would He just a little later that very day invite the disciples to actually feel Him that He is real? Had He by then ascended to His Father, and returned for the appearance? Silly!
The obvious is, the translation of John 20:7 with the word “touch”, is unfortunate; and that contextually – as I have shown before – to “cling”, far better gives the true meaning: “Don’t cling to Me, Mary, but go and tell my brethren, since I have not yet ascended to my Father (and the Holy Spirit has not been poured out yet to witness of Me)!”

Now here in Hebrews 8 – again, as I have shown before but you have turned a blind eye to – it says:
“Now of the things we have spoken, this is the sum: We have such an High Priest who is set n the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens – a Minister of the Sanctuary, and of the true Tabernacle which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest (on earth) is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices (it is the requirement and qualification for his office without which he cannot appear in the sanctuary or offer at all): WHEREFORE IT IS OF NECESSITY that this Man (Jesus) HAVE, somewhat also, TO, offer! (3) For if He were on earth, He should not be a priest, seeing He would THEN (Gr. an) not be a priest, they being the ones (priests) offering according to the Law …”

As can clearly be discerned (and as discernable from what follows in the next verse) the clause, “seeing He would THEN (Gr. an) not be a priest, they being the (priests) offering according to the Law …”, is the writer’s making reference back to what he has written in chapter 7 verse 28,
“For the Law maketh men high priests which have infirmities; but the word of oath (of God) which was since the Law, maketh the Son High Priest, who is consecrated High Priest, for ever!”
With that in mind, one should now understand 8:4, accordingly!
For if He were on earth, He should not be a priest, seeing He would then not be a priest, they being priests who have infirmities, but He being perfected; and they being priests who are appointed by the Law while the Word of Oath (of God) appoints the Son, High Priest, who is consecrated High Priest, for ever! NOW, He has somewhat to offer!
This is why the writer uses the Subjunctive – it has definite implications presupposed, and locality certainly is not even one of them, but is used for “summing up the things which we have spoken (thus far before 8:4)”!
If Jesus were on earth or would have stayed down on earth, he would not have been our High Priest because He would have had to be a man of such infirmities as the priests on earth were subjected to. He would have had to be sinner and mortal and He would never have risen from the dead, but would have been in His grave still, and corrupted the same as all the earthly priests.
Therefore the main implicated presupposition of the whole context as well as of the specific wording of 8:4 is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead in incorruptible glory and everlasting life. Jesus does have the ‘necessary’ qualifications and requirements to be made High Priest for evermore”. He has satisfied every condition declared by the Oath of God: He is Conqueror of every infirmity and destroyed the enmity and great adversity, sin and death, through resurrection form the dead. Therefore only could Christ be made High Priest and be elevated to the Right Hand of Royalty “HIGHER THAN the heavens”. Christ’s exaltation goes beyond all creation and everything made with hands, beyond even everything made by the hands of God Himself – exactly from where the EARTH is made His footstool. From Golgotha’s hill towers the Giant of our faith, His head above all clouds and space, feet firmly resting on the foundations of our Christian Faith, its strength indeed the Oath of God, that His flesh shall not see corruption, but that He would rise again, and be brought from the grave and dead, “High Priest of our Confession”!

Now let me tell you, Bob Ryan, if this weren’t true – every word of it – then, indeed, Jesus would not have been in heaven or High Priest at all, but dead, and you and I, would be dead too, and lost, for evermore – were Jesus not made High Priest in resurrection from the dead on earth, and had He not ascended to the Father THIS HIGH PRIEST FOR EVERMORE and had He not this OFFERING TO PRESENT BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD AND IN THE SANCTUARY OF HIS OWN BEING!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Earthly priests only typically were able to make atonement, and then only by the shedding of blood and only by every day repeating – and ever, never to make true atonement – but only symbolically.
But this Man Jesus “from the dead” (that is, from the earth!) was able to make atonement – not typically at all (pointing to some future judgement as the SDA’s claim), but truly; and then not only by the shedding of His own blood, but by vicariously to present His own life, and never to make atonement continually every day – but once for all and ever more effective.
The subjunctive, “were He on earth”, means, ‘remained He on earth’. That implies, positively, He would not have been raised from the dead. Of course, if He remained on earth, He “would not be a priest at all”, but not because He would remain on earth, but because of the reasons why He would have remained on earth – which, as we have seen, would have implied He was a sinner and mortal – which He was not, but which He was the Conqueror of, Conqueror of, in the very capacity of High Priest and in the very duty of execution of High Priestly Office, through the very act of the exceeding greatness of God’s Power when He raised Him from the dead!

Jesus Christ had been and has been High Priest for ever; as He had been and has been King and Lord and God for ever. But nowhere more than in His High Priestly and Royal act of rising from the dead Priest of the Most High God and King of Peace – Atoner between God and man, Saviour, Victor! “And God on the Seventh Day rested from al His works.” It cannot be forgotten. “Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy … for the LORD …. rested on the Seventh Day, WHEREFORE the LORD blessed (it) the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it (the Sabbath Day)” – all done “in” and “on” and to (and also with) “the Sabbath”; “in” and “on” and to (and also with) “the Seventh Day”.
“ON THAT DAY the priest must make atonement”, and “finish atonement”! The High Priest of our confession obeyed, and in that very Day, was raised from the dead to crown and seal and finish and perfect all the works of God.
Dear brother in Christ, Bob Ryan, do you still refuse to accept? Why would you? Because if you accepted it would mean you will have to admit, I was wrong? I have been wrong in my understanding of most of God’s truths, and my whole life almost has been one of admitting mistake after mistake – for every time I eagerly was enabled to accept truth after truth. Most rewarding was it; richest experience! How greatly has God blessed me through the Faith of His Son. I cannot be grateful enough or properly. Praise His Name! Is all I may do in my weak and inept manner.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
Oct. 26 2005,
“The immortal requirement for the Melchizedek priesthood is met by Christ – alone...”

GE:
Question is, WHEN, HOW and WHERE, did Christ ‘meet the immortal requirement’?
He could NOT meet the requirement were He not High Priest already. From the nature of his unique priesthood he had to be and in fact had been, High Priest “without beginning”, just like He had to be and in fact had been, High Priest according to the nature of his unique priesthood, “without end”. So Jesus wasn’t “made High Priest”, almost two thousand years after He ascended Throne (or about one and half century ago after He ascended into the heavens), in order to “START” officiating in the Most Holy of the sanctuary of your imagination, Bob Ryan, built, ‘in heaven’.
Therefore Christ “met the immortal requirement” to be “High Priest of God” through just being Divine, and that, He had had been before He had made sacrifice to atone.
In making sacrifice of reconciliation, the eternal High Priestly work of Christ began sharp ascent.
(At this point – of making sacrifice – the earthly priesthood, reached the top and began descent at once. After sacrifice – in earthly priesthood – point of beginning is again reached, until next year; and next year.)
For with earthly priesthood, atonement began and ended with the shedding of blood – with the taking of life, and death. Those priests possessed no vicarious life or righteousness of their own they could present before the judgement seat of God on behalf of the People. All the sacrifice by earthly priesthood availed, was to show acknowledgement and confession of guilt and sin, and faith in the promised forgiveness and reconciliation through the High Priesthood of Life – by this Priest “after the order of Milchisedec”, Jesus Christ.
In making sacrifice of reconciliation, the eternal High Priestly work of Christ began sharp ascent, as it were. It had not at this point reached highest point though. Although common ground had been hit in death and grave for mankind and its Saviour, atonement for sin had not been attained, yet. (Just as in the case of the earthly priesthood that could never one better than hit bottom.) At this point (if one could distinguish ‘stages’ or ‘points’ in the momentary work of God) NO forgiveness of sins could be effectuated or “reckoned”, and therefore NO “peace made” – not at this point. No atonement, no High Priestly work done and no High Priesthood proper to be spoken of (humanly) if of sacrifice is spoken of in isolation!
So the sacrifice – the laying down – of His life, does not make of Jesus High Priest. (We speak like this because we break the continuous and instantaneous High Priestly work of Christ up in sections for the sake of our weak understanding.)
How could Jesus’ High Priestly work of the offering up of Himself, not have effected His own High Priesthood?: “If Christ be not RAISED, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins.” (1Cor.15:17) Where there is still sin, no atonement if made by God could be made; and where no atonement is made, there, no High Priesthood could be exercised if the High Priesthood of Christ. But this we can only suppose, for with God what is impossible with man, is possible. Never for one moment in reality was Christ in His officiating High Priest of God, not High Priest of God fully or not for evermore. Nevertheless, even the Scriptures speak by way of comparison, and in metaphor, for it says, “EVEN MORE”. It is also applicable to Jesus’ making sacrifice, compared with His history before. He was High Priest “even more” while giving up His life for to make atonement, than when He was not thus acting.
But “EVEN MORE”, says the Scriptures, it _would_ be of no avail, _had_ He not finished High Priestly work, _were_ He not High Priest of a _“better”_ Covenant, _had_ He not been _raised_ from the dead _“incorruptible”_.
So, and therefore, Jesus was High Priest of highest note, ultimately, absolutely and originally – His High Priesthood finds its beginnings HERE – IN THIS, that Christ not only gave His life – not only laid it down – but took it up again; in this, that God also raised Him from the dead.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

WHERE was Christ raised? "He was raised FROM THE DEAD"! Behold our High Priest on earth as in heaven! It is the complete atonement of God completely completed - Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
Said Bob Ryan with reference to Hb.7:25-27 (Sept.23),

“Central to the time when Christ is IN the MHP doing His High Priestly work - we find multitudes are in there as well and court is "in session".”
BR quoted ,
“Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.”

GE:
Like I have above dissected, so to speak, ‘the process’ of atonement made, Bob Ryan now is making a compendium of “court "in session"”. It is, “... the time when Christ is IN the MHP doing His High Priestly work - we find multitudes are in there as well and court is "in session".”
Per se, I do not find fault at all; but can one understand these words of BR, ‘per se’? He of course meant that his statement should be understood in the light of the text he has quoted.
Now the crux of the issue here, lies in the answer or supposed answer to the question of “the time when” – “the time when Christ is IN the Most Holy Place, doing His High Priestly work”.

What information does his referred text give on the question of “the time when”? Extracted, every point of information on ‘ time when’, are:
“forever”, “since He always lives”, “separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens”, “not daily”, “He did once for all”, and, “when He offered up Himself”.
Now Bob Ryan and the SDA’s want us to believe this applies to Christ “in heaven AFTER the cross”, and “AFTER He ascended to heaven”, in fact, according to them, since 1844 of the Christian year count; not before!
Are they right, or does every point of information on ‘ time when’ in these verses, apply to the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, I ask, because we are left with NO other choices!

No Christian but bigoted ‘supports pre-bias’, will argue for the former alternative; and any Christian “without an "agenda" (will) see the issue of priesthood and sacrifices and laws governing who can be a priest and what type of sacrifice is offered are CLEARLY the explicit and obvious topic of the chapter.”

The issue of priesthood and sacrifices and laws governing who can be a priest and what type of sacrifice was offered in this case of Priesthood and Sacrifice – the instance in Judea, outside Jerusalem, in the garden adjacent to the Hill Called Skull, by the grave of one Joseph of Arimathea, from which came forth from the dead, the dead, Jesus of Nazareth, “Secluded Acre”, ALIVE and GLORIOUS – CLEARLY and explicitly and obviously GOVERNED that it should be the priesthood and governing law of “a more excellent ministry obtained” (8:6), indeed the priesthood and governing law of “the Word of the Oath (of God) which maketh the Son who is consecrated forever, High Priest” (7:28). CLEARLY and explicitly and obviously the laws governing who can be a priest and what type of sacrifice was offered – in this case – GOVERNED, that “Christ being come an High Priest by a greater and more perfect tabernacle … having obtained eternal salvation … through the Eternal Spirit … without spot offered to God” (9:11,12,14, “By a new and living Way, which HE,. Hath consecrated for us, through the veil – His flesh” (10:20), “not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the Power of and endless Life” (7:16).
“Moses spake NOTHING concerning priesthood of which tribe our Lord sprang out” (7:14), “For the priesthood being changed, there is necessarily made change also of law” (7:12), “By so much indeed was Jesus made surety of a Better Testament” (7:22).
The declaration, “FOR BY ONE OFFERING HE HATH PERFECTED FOR EVER” (10:14), “sums up” everything, “We have such an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens a minister.” (8:1)
Every time Jesus is portrayed as in resurrection from the dead, immediately, directly and immutably: “He hath perfected”; “is set an High Priest”; “made surety”; “offered to God”; “entered in”; “tabernacle pitched” – and many more, some examples of which, I have made reference to often before.

So with your reference to Hebrews 7 above; there you may discern the resurrection of our Lord in each case of time-reference: “forever”, “since He always lives”, “separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens”, “not daily”, “He did once for all”, and, “when He offered up Himself”. And therein then, immediately, directly and immutably, is found Jesus’ High Priestly work, perfected and, for evermore.
We believe in and in fact “HAVE, such an High Priest”: 1, “Who IS SET on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens”, 2, “Who now HAS OBTAINED a more excellent ministry, by how much also He IS (become) the Mediator”.
Take away the underlying prerequisite that Jesus rose from the dead in the moment of these things having become true and real, and the whole truth and the whole reality of it is taken away.

It is the style of writing of this author of the Letter to the Hebrew believers by which he emphasises the first principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ –that He rose from the dead– exactly NOT to mention it directly or in so many words every time he presupposes it. Otherwise he would have composed a letter that scarcely would consist of any other words than, “when God raised Him from the dead”.
Virtually every thought of the writer is thus provoked by the immediacy of the truth and fact of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, and its conditionality for every contributory conclusion – most of all the contributory conclusion of Jesus’ High Priestly office and work when He was “set on the right hand of the Majesty in the heavens”.

So, one could every time replace the time-phrases in the example above, with one or other way of mentioning Jesus’ resurrection, and the meaning won’t change at all, but will rather become clearer.
“Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives, since he rose from the dead, to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens through resurrection from the dead;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did, by rising from the dead, once for all when He offered up Himself, when, and as, he rose from the dead.”
It makes some cumbersome reading though; and so it would have, for his first readers – wherefore he doesn’t employ the method or style of such repetitiveness, but rather uses rich metaphor to bring to the fore the many-facet-ness of the resurrection of Christ.

The point I want to make, and believe the writer of this Letter wanted to make, is very plainly put by Paul in Ephesians 1:18f, “The eyes of your understanding being enlightened that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the exceeding greatness of His Power (in High Priestly final atonement) to us-ward who believe, according to the Working of His Mighty Power Which He Wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this world, but also in that which is to come, and hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be Head over all things to the Church which is His Body :– THE FULNESS OF HIM THAT FILLETH ALL IN ALL (WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD).”

(One could define Christ and the whole event of the Christ-event, in these words presupposing His resurrection from the dead: “the Working of His Mighty Power Which He Wrought”. You (Bob Ryan) may again object, that would be saying ‘Christ in Christ’ – to which I have no answer nor wish to have an answer to.)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR,
“Christ did not "enter Christ" by His blood. Those kinds of nonsensical twistings of the chapter solve nothing and create more problems then they dodge.
Christ obtained eternal redemption for us AT The Cross - but HE CONTINUES His gospel work as HE predicted in HIS chapter on Atonement in Lev 16 -- in HIS role of HIGH PRIEST FOR US -- who NOW serves As our HIGH Priest.”

GE:
Bob Ryan, face the ‘problem’ for you, squarely: God the Spirit of Life indeed ‘entered Christ’ by virtue of His blood; by virtue of His life He gave, and thereby – by resurrection from the dead – “God in Christ”, “obtained” and availed and “made” full and final atonement for sin.
Nowhere else and never else, so that ‘in HIS role of HIGH PRIEST FOR US He NOW serves as our HIGH Priest’ for ever and as for ever before. He will be our High Priest on the new earth too, as He will be our King on the new earth too; and our Lord and God; and our Saviour – as He was before He became man. And all because He rose from the dead and so made atonement between God and man; so brought atonement to its end; so “wrought”; and so “wrought” atonement and reconciliation and justification and righteousness and peace. He offered before God, His LIFE – which no priest or sacrifice was able to, despite the ability of its blood to be offered up.
Whereas we must speak of ‘despite its blood offered up’ in all other cases of sacrifice made and presented before God, we must, in the case of Christ, speak of ‘because’. For “life is in the blood” of Christ only, and death only, in the blood of sin’s victims. Christ’s offering before the judgement seat of God therefore, is Christ serving as our High Priest and making real atonement, since He offers He life through resurrection from the dead… UNLIKE the “sacrifices and laws governing who can be a priest and what type of sacrifice was offered”.

Therefore:
Untrue: “Christ obtained eternal redemption for us AT The Cross - but HE CONTINUES His gospel work as HE predicted in HIS chapter on Atonement in Lev 16 -- in HIS role of HIGH PRIEST FOR US -- who NOW serves As our HIGH Priest.”
Reason untrue: Where is Christ in resurrection from the dead? As if He never rose from the dead, not mentioned at all!
Half a Gospel is like half truth.

By the buy, Lev 16 pictures earthly priests’ role, not Christ’s. It “predicts” it only in a very qualified manner. Its easier to understand it foreshadows it, and the shadow is not the reality – simply. Therefore Hebrews argues for a change of law when it comes to Christ over against the (old) “sacrifices and laws governing who can be a priest and what type of sacrifice was offered”.

Therefore:
Untrue: “Christ obtained eternal redemption for us AT The Cross - but HE CONTINUES His gospel work as HE predicted in HIS chapter on Atonement in Lev 16 -- in HIS role of HIGH PRIEST FOR US -- who NOW serves As our HIGH Priest.”
Reason why untrue: Where is Christ in resurrection from the dead? As if He never rose from the dead, not mentioned at all!
Half a Gospel is like half truth.

"Now if Christ is preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is ..." no atonement made? (1Cor.15:12part)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If there be no atonement made, then Christ is not risen from the dead!

 

[BobRyan]

1 John 2:2 the "ATONING SACRIFICE" NIV is completed at the Cross.

no possible way to "edit the text" or to obliterate the teaching of God in Lev 16 on the dotrine of Atonement and the DIFFERENCE between the role of Christ as the SIN offering and the role of christ as our HIGH PRIEST IN HEAVEN - in the TRUE heavenly sanctuary.

 

[BobRyan]

GE the freedom with which you "rephrase" abandone and leave the texts given here -- result in your problematic conclusions.

If you would follow the quote closely you would not have that problem. Notice How I follow the quote when I abserve "Christ did not ENTER CHRIST" when He went to heaven.

Notice how you CHANGE the text INSERTING "Holy Spirit enter Christ" -- but can only do so WITHOUT actually quoting THE TEXT!??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I know you cannot be persuaded otherwise, dear frien Bob Ryan. The only good of this discussion is that it creates opportunity for gaining better insight into the truth.
So here's some more thoughts,

BR, (Oct. 16):
quoting Hb.7,
“26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.”
He then declares,
“Christ is prepared to TAKE that Melchizedek priesthood only AFTER death - AFTER making his sacrifice.”
Analysing:
BR:
AFTER making sacrifice
AFTER death (after He ascended)
Hb.7:
WHEN He offered up Himself (making sacrifice)
Appoints a Son (in resurrection)
in being made perfect / having been perfected (in resurrection)
forever (‘Forever’ extends into the future and past from ‘today’, as has been pointed out before, that the ‘Melchizedek priesthood’ from its nature is a priesthood without beginning or end.)
Maintains BR:
“Paul argues his third case for “perseverance” holding fast our confession “firm until the end” by pointing the reader to Christ’s salvific role as our High Priest in heaven today.”
This he says with reference to Hb.4,
“14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”

What BR means by “in heaven today”, is what changes anyone’s natural conclusion from this Scripture-passage, namely, that Paul argues Christ’s salvific role as our High Priest when God raised Him from the dead! “Therefore since / Seeing then… For we have… Therefore…”, relate to BOTH “has passed through the heavens” in verse 14, and, “For He that is entered into His rest, He also has ceased from His own works as God from His” in verse 10. And both these metaphors suppose Jesus’ resurrection. We today have in heaven Jesus the Son of God, our High Priest BECAUSE and ON THE GROUNDS THAT, He rose from the dead.
Believers “with confidence” because of Jesus’ resurrection, are able to “draw near to the throne of grace”; they because of Jesus’ resurrection, may “hold fast our confession”; they because of Jesus’ resurrection, can find “sympathy with (their) weaknesses”.
“Paul argues his case for “perseverance” holding fast our confession “firm until the end”, firmly, on what Jesus HAD DONE – while on earth – before, and in, and through, his suffering, dying, death, AND RESURRECTION. THUS WE, in faith may point to Christ’s salvific role as our High Priest in heaven, today.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Christ IS (not only 'was') Priest and Sacrifice - "He offered up Himself". Why do you find it problematic to accept Christ is both Temple and Priest? Altar and Offering? Goat slaughtered and live goat? Rest and Obtainer of Rest? The One Who Enters as well as the Veil He enters in throughj? And so on? Just remember, I did not first talk about 'Christ entering Christ' - you did!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The 'TRUE Tabernacle in heaven' IS, Jesus Christ.
He was it on earth before he ascended into the heavens. He was it dying and death and descending into hell. He IS it, in resurrection from the dead, firstly and originally. That, is Christian Faith, saving faith, the full Gospel, Atonement Perfected "in the Son" - He is the comprehension of all 'TRUTH' - also the truth of "the TRUE Tabernacle in heaven" - and He IS it, from being the One Risen from the dead.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

“Paul argues his case for “perseverance” holding fast our confession “firm until the end”, firmly, on what Jesus HAD DONE – while on earth – before, and in, and through, his suffering, dying, death, AND RESURRECTION. THUS WE, in faith may point to Christ’s salvific role as our High Priest in heaven, today, no different than all believers of all times have always been pointing in faith – no different than Christ, in all times always “the same”, nowhere and at no time and in no capacity so differently than in resurrection from the dead, was and is, “High Priest of our confession”!

The Law requires the priest must be high priest before he may do sacrifice in final atonement; The Law requires he must be high priest before he may enter in with the blood he then had to offer before the Lord; The Law requires he must come forth out of the tabernacle before he may bless the people; the Law required he had to be high priest before he may send the goat away alive for and as an atonement for the people; The Law required he must be high priest, before, again, he may return again to bless the people in the presence of God.
After that, the Law requires the high priest had to take off his high priestly garment, and may mingle with the people again.
The Law was given to foreshow how Jesus would act being our High Priest already and from eternity to eternity.
The Lord pitched our Tabernacle indestructable when He raised from the dead, High Priest of our Confession.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The high priest wore his high priestly robe only while doing final atonement, only while offering blood; Our High Priest wore his High Pristly robe while offering LIFE for final atonement of the people - which He has always being offering, but originally only in resurrection from the dead.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR: (Sept 24, 2005)
“The text does NOT say that MOSES WAS SHOWN the copy - the SHADOW -- rather it says that Moses MADE the copy - the SHADOW of heavenly things.
See how all the problems vanish when one accurately separates what GE SAID from what GOD said??”

GE:
“The text” referred to, is, Hebrews 8:
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, SEE, He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.
(Emphasis BR)

Bob Ryan:
“The text does NOT say that MOSES WAS SHOWN the copy - the SHADOW”

Hebrews 8:
“The pattern which was shown you”

Bob Ryan:
“it says that Moses MADE the copy”

Hebrews 8:
“Moses was to erect the tabernacle; Make ALL THINGS according to the pattern” (Emphasis GE)

Bob Ryan:
“Moses MADE ... the SHADOW of heavenly things”

Hebrews 8:
“priest(s) … serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things … according to the Law”

Bob Ryan:
“See how all the problems vanish when one accurately separates what GE SAID from what GOD said??”

GE: Me wonder ...