Seventh-day Adventists continued...

[BobRyan]

I do not see ANYWHERE where the office of the OT Prophet or NT Apostle continued forward, do you?

1 Cor 12 argues for the prophet.
1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming

 

[Mr. Davis]

Mr. Davis wrote:

"I happen to know someone who was kicked off the Forums for saying
the three Persons of the Godhead were not equal."

Bob Ryan, who, like all SDA and the Witnesses, is thoroughly brainwashed, and will NOT change his mind, no matter how persuasively the truth is presented to him!

As an SDA, Ryan must believe that, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who came from the SDA, that theirs is the ONLY way to be saved.

If so, the SDA is rightly called a CULT. Only cults claim "to have a corner on Absolute Truth."

Christian denominations, Calvinist or Arminian, AGREE on the fundamentals of the Christian faith. They
DO NOT claim "to have a corner on Absolute Truth," and substitute their own ideas for historical doctrine. BOTH Calvinist AND Arminian believers will be found in heaven.

For example, both the Witnesses and the SDA teach that Christ is the Archangel Michael. This is a
blasphemous substitution of MEN'S ideas for the Historical Doctrine of Who Christ Is. Christ is unquestionably GOD, not a Created Being!

In addition, both cults teach "Soul Sleep." The dead are not conscious. There are many Scriptures to
refute this idea of MAN. But the best comes from the words of our Lord HIMSELF. In Luke 16, not only
are the dead conscious, but the Rich Man experiences the flames of Hell! This is no parable. A name
is mentioned. Lazarus. Jesus never named individuals in his parables. Note that both the Jehovah's
Witnesses and the SDA teach that there is no Hell. God is too loving, they say.

Other doctrines could be mentioned.

Bob Ryan fled, with his tail between his legs, (a coward), from this post on another forum.

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Cor 12 argues for the prophet.
1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming

Which is NOT the same as the office of a prophet/Apostle, as those were able to speak and write inspired words, which Ellen White could not do!

 

[robycop3]

1 Cor 12 argues for the prophet.
1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming

Well, EGW was not a prophetess. She was a demagogue who fooled a number of people into believing her hooey, especially after the "Great Disappointment" of Wm. Miller's failed prophecy.

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua1 said: ↑
I do not see ANYWHERE where the office of the OT Prophet or NT Apostle continued forward, do you?

1 Cor 12 argues for the prophet.
1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming

Which is NOT the same as the office of a prophet/Apostle,

1 Cor 12
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

1 Cor 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Bible details "matter"

 

[BobRyan]

Well, EGW was not a prophetess.

The gift of prophecy is valid according to the actual Bible...

That point remains.

 

[robycop3]

The gift of prophecy is valid according to the actual Bible...

That point remains.

I'm not arguing that there are no prophets. But I AM arguing that EGW was not one of them.

A TRUE prophet of GOD'S must have a 1.000 "batting average", without any errors. EGW had a great many swings & misses.

She prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851, same as many other false prophets of various other cults have done every year for a long time.

I could write about her false prophecies all day, but for brevity, let's just look at ONE, which she said she saw on June 27, 1850:

Some of us have had time to get the truth and to advance step by step, and every step we have taken has given us strength to take the next. But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months. They will also have much to unlearn and much to learn again. Those who would not receive the mark of the beast and his image when the decree goes forth, must have now to say, Nay, we will not regard the institution of the beast

(Early Writings, p.67).

Neither the beast nor the marka the beast have yet come, & it's been more than a few months since 1850!
But GOD said,
You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him (Deut. 18:21,22).

So we see one clear, undeniable miss by EGW! All it takes is ONE to prove a prophet is false!

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not arguing that there are no prophets. But I AM arguing that EGW was not one of them.

I am not debating you on that point - because the first step in testing a prophet is whether or not the doctrines that they claim God has endorsed - are one that actually fit with the Bible in my POV. For example no Baptist prophet could possibly be a "true" prophet in my view IF they claim to have a message from God that had incorrect doctrine in it.

That is "a given" for all denominations. Of course a Baptist prophet "might" simply get a message that 1 John 5:2-3 is correct that the we "Show the Love of God " in the way that John said "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments". That would be in harmony with the Baptist Faith and Message - and I would not think that they had contradicted scripture so I could not rule them out as being a true prophet simply because they had "other" beliefs that I knew were error but that they had not claimed to have a message from God endorsing those errors.

But in the case of Ellen White - I don't know of any Bible doctrine taught by the SDA church that she did not also claim to have a message from God - approving. .That would make it impossible for a non-SDA to accept here as a true prophet - without actually "doing the Bible study" find out what correct Bible doctrine is "first". So it is pointless for me to get into the sort of debate you ask for with Ellen White.

having said that - you did go out on a limb in the case below.

She prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851, same as many other false prophets of various other cults have done every year for a long time.

Your ability to flat out "make stuff up" is impressive.

I am not sure that you would say you are inclined to "let facts" get in the way of "a good emotional argument and story" - but that false accusation above is a case in point.

1. Ellen White had no visions from God until December 1844 having just turned 17 in November and at that time she was not held to be a prophet or a leader of any kind. Rather she was considered to be a "teenager" in the great Millerite movement where the leaders were very visible and vocal preachers and teachers from a wide range of denominations - no teens in that speakers list.

Thus not claims at all to having a vision from God predicting a date in 1843 or 1844 for the second coming.

2. After the Oct 22, 1844 event of the Millerites Ellen White started getting visions and key among them was the warning against any and all date setting and that the Oct 22,1844 end point for the 2300 year timeline of Daniel 8 was the last of all the endpoint specific dates that the Bible had --- no more were Biblical -- and even that one was never said in her visions to be a prediction of the second coming. In the Bible - it was a prediction about the work of Christ as High Priest in heaven.


Less emotionalism.. more actual facts please.. That works best in Bible study and in making accusations (if you must)

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Cor 12 argues for the prophet.
1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming



1 Cor 12
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

1 Cor 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Bible details "matter"

The NT prophets were NOT same as the OT ones, as that would be the NT Apostles, as those being used in the gift of prophesy were not in the Office of the prophet, so were not inspired as a prophet, neither was Ellen White!

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not debating you on that point - because the first step in testing a prophet is whether or not the doctrines that they claim God has endorsed - are one that actually fit with the Bible in my POV. For example no Baptist prophet could possibly be a "true" prophet in my view IF they claim to have a message from God that had incorrect doctrine in it.

That is "a given" for all denominations. Of course a Baptist prophet "might" simply get a message that 1 John 5:2-3 is correct that the we "Show the Love of God " in the way that John said "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments". That would be in harmony with the Baptist Faith and Message - and I would not think that they had contradicted scripture so I could not rule them out as being a true prophet simply because they had "other" beliefs that I knew were error but that they had not claimed to have a message from God endorsing those errors.

But in the case of Ellen White - I don't know of any Bible doctrine taught by the SDA church that she did not also claim to have a message from God - approving. .That would make it impossible for a non-SDA to accept here as a true prophet - without actually "doing the Bible study" find out what correct Bible doctrine is "first". So it is pointless for me to get into the sort of debate you ask for with Ellen White.

having said that - you did go out on a limb in the case below.





Your ability to flat out "make stuff up" is impressive.

I am not sure that you would say you are inclined to "let facts" get in the way of "a good emotional argument and story" - but that false accusation above is a case in point.

1. Ellen White had no visions from God until December 1844 having just turned 17 in November and at that time she was not held to be a prophet or a leader of any kind. Rather she was considered to be a "teenager" in the great Millerite movement where the leaders were very visible and vocal preachers and teachers from a wide range of denominations - no teens in that speakers list.

Thus not claims at all to having a vision from God predicting a date in 1843 or 1844 for the second coming.

2. After the Oct 22, 1844 event of the Millerites Ellen White started getting visions and key among them was the warning against any and all date setting and that the Oct 22,1844 end point for the 2300 year timeline of Daniel 8 was the last of all the endpoint specific dates that the Bible had --- no more were Biblical -- and even that one was never said in her visions to be a prediction of the second coming. In the Bible - it was a prediction about the work of Christ as High Priest in heaven.


Less emotionalism.. more actual facts please.. That works best in Bible study and in making accusations (if you must)

She denied lietral hell, denied the real Gospel, elevated Sabbath to being essentially to be saved, not from God!

 

[BobRyan]

She denied lietral hell, denied the real Gospel, elevated Sabbath to being essentially to be saved, not from God!

nonsense -- less fiction more real life please.

SDAs teach a literal hell -- far more so than almost any other denomination.
SDAs teach the real gospel
SDAs teach that "the saints keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 far more than almost any other denomination.
SDAs have a message endorsed specifically by God and coming directly from the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

The NT prophets were NOT same as the OT ones

Here is where you "quote you" again to prove the speculation you offer?

, as that would be the NT Apostles,

Utter nonsense - no text in OT or NT says that all prophets are Apostles and we all know it.

At some point - "just making stuff up" cannot be the most compelling solution that you have to prove your view of doctrine.

Please be serious.

Now lets contrast your method of "just making stuff up" to actual Bible study on the subject of the gift of prophecy in the NT.

========================

1 Cor 12 argues for the gift of prophecy and the office/leadership role of prophet

1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming

1 Cor 12
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

1 Cor 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Bible details "matter"

 

[Yeshua1]

nonsense -- less fiction more real life please.

SDAs teach a literal hell -- far more so than almost any other denomination.
SDAs teach the real gospel
SDAs teach that "the saints keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 far more than almost any other denomination.
SDAs have a message endorsed specifically by God and coming directly from the Bible.

Sda holds to non scripturally soul sleep and hell being temporary, as sinners will be burnt away
MUST keep the Sabbath in order to be saved and avoid mark of beast
MUST hold to Ellen Whitea s a real prophetess, and her teachings on par with Bible
NO security of salvation, as only after death will a final judgement regarding that be made
You really see this as being Christian?

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is where you "quote you" again to prove the speculation you offer?



Utter nonsense - no text in OT or NT says that all prophets are Apostles and we all know it.

At some point - "just making stuff up" cannot be the most compelling solution that you have to prove your view of doctrine.

Please be serious.

Now lets contrast your method of "just making stuff up" to actual Bible study on the subject of the gift of prophecy in the NT.

========================

1 Cor 12 argues for the gift of prophecy and the office/leadership role of prophet

1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming

1 Cor 12
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

1 Cor 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Bible details "matter"

The Holy Spirit inspired the OT prophets/NT Apostle to speak and record scripture, those offices ceased when John died...

 

[BobRyan]

The Holy Spirit inspired the OT prophets/NT Apostle to speak and record scripture, those offices ceased when John died...

The Holy Spirit inspired all the church as stated in 1Cor 12 such that "each one" in the church of Corinth "has a revelation" as stated in God's Word 1 Cor 14 --

yet NOT ONE of those members of 1 Cor 14 "writes the Bible".

As for your claim that the gift of prophecy is supposed to end when John dies -- we only have "your quote of you" as source for that speculative doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Sda holds to non scripturally soul sleep

Here again we have "you quoting you" to contrast with the actual Bible.

That is pretty helpful as it turns out.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10:28 "fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell"

Sda holds to non scripturally hell being temporary, as sinners will be burnt away

Again "your quote of you" vs the actual Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

Sda holds to non scripturally...
MUST keep the Sabbath

hint: Even D.L.Moody argued against Sabbath breaking.

 

[BobRyan]

Sda holds to
NO security of salvation,

You "quote you" again.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

 

[BobRyan]

Sda holds to non scripturally soul sleep and hell being temporary, as sinners will be burnt away
MUST keep the Sabbath in order to be saved and avoid mark of beast
MUST hold to Ellen Whitea s a real prophetess, and her teachings on par with Bible
NO security of salvation, as only after death will a final judgement regarding that be made
You really see this as being Christian?

you have 'quoted you' for most of that -- are you asking if YOU are a Christian after demonstrating that dark ages tactic??

Didn't we all already have enough that sort of false accusation in the dark ages?