Seventh-day Adventists continued...

[Yeshua1]

Here is where you "quote you" again to prove the speculation you offer?



Utter nonsense - no text in OT or NT says that all prophets are Apostles and we all know it.

At some point - "just making stuff up" cannot be the most compelling solution that you have to prove your view of doctrine.

Please be serious.

Now lets contrast your method of "just making stuff up" to actual Bible study on the subject of the gift of prophecy in the NT.

========================

1 Cor 12 argues for the gift of prophecy and the office/leadership role of prophet

1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming

1 Cor 12
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

1 Cor 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Bible details "matter"

The NT Apostles were same as OT prophets, both spoke and recorded scripture, but those 2 Offices ceased after Apostolic Age ended.

 

[Yeshua1]

you have 'quoted you' for most of that -- are you asking if YOU are a Christian after demonstrating that dark ages tactic??

Didn't we all already have enough that sort of false accusation in the dark ages?

Do you deny that is what Ellen White abd SDA actual teaches though?

 

[Yeshua1]

You "quote you" again.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Does Sda teach eternal security?

 

[Yeshua1]

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23



hint: Even D.L.Moody argued against Sabbath breaking.

Sabbath as in the Lord day, Sunday, no tthe jewish Sabbath! That was DL Moody position.

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.



Here again we have "you quoting you" to contrast with the actual Bible.

That is pretty helpful as it turns out.

Asleep in the Bible refers to physical body now dead, but soul/spirit still awake and alive now!

 

[BobRyan]

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

Yeshua1 said: ↑
Sda holds to non scripturally...
MUST keep the Sabbath

hint: Even D.L.Moody argued against Sabbath breaking.

Sabbath as in the Lord day, Sunday, no tthe jewish Sabbath! That was DL Moody position.

D.L. Moody admitted that the actual Bible Sabbath commandment was given to "mankind" and started in "EDEN" with Adam and Even.. Your response makes it look like you think that Moody thought Adam was a Jew. Seriously?? Is this a "detail" you wish to avoid??

Is this your complaint then - that SDAs do not claim Adam was "a Jew"??

The other problem with your post is it "appears" you would endorse God's Sabbath Commandment if only it was "bent" or "edited" by man-made tradition to point to week-day-1 instead of what God's actual Word says about it?

Is this then your "complaint" -- that SDAs condemn the idea of "editing" God's Word?

 

[BobRyan]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Yeshua1 said: ↑
Sda holds to non scripturally soul sleep

Here again we have "you quoting you" to contrast with the actual Bible.

That is pretty helpful as it turns out.

Asleep in the Bible refers to physical body now dead, but soul/spirit still awake and alive now!

Hint: the bible says the physical body sleeps every night. You knew that right? you are just seeking any-ol-idea to find a way out of this?? To escape the obvious meaning in the text?

Is this then your complaint about SDAs that it is WE who admit that the physical body sleeps every night and that it id "decayed to dust" at death??

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord,

Or is it your speculation that physical bodies of the dead are all buried in heaven and at Christ's return He brings all the dead bodies in heaven with Him???

"any-ol-idea" being tried out again? To escape the obvious meaning in the text?

So then is your complaint that SDAs deny that doctrine of dragging dead physical bodies burried in heaven - back to Earth at the second coming??

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua1 said: ↑
Sda holds to
NO security of salvation,

You "quote you" again.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Does Sda teach eternal security?

There is an entire thread exposing the fact that the OSAS doctrine does not survive the sola scriptura review in Matthew 18 and Romans 11 and a great many other places.

As for "security of salvation" we do teach it - but we do not teach OSAS because that doctrine cannot survive the test of scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you deny that is what Ellen White and SDA actual teaches though?

SDA doctrines are published online as the "28 Fundamental Beliefs" what part of my post makes you think I am opposing them??

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua1 said: ↑
The NT prophets were NOT same as the OT ones, as that would be the NT Apostles,

no text in OT or NT says that all prophets are Apostles and we all know it.

At some point - "just making stuff up" cannot be the most compelling solution that you have to prove your view of doctrine.

Please be serious.

Now lets contrast your method of "just making stuff up" to actual Bible study on the subject of the gift of prophecy in the NT.

========================

1 Cor 12 argues for the gift of prophecy and the office/leadership role of prophet

1 Cor 14:1-2 says to especially desire the gift of prophecy
Agabus was a prophet in the NT
Anna was a prophet in the NT

The NT has no concept at all of "prophet is not like pre-cross prophet" ... Anna is pre-cross. Agabus is post-cross.

1 Cor 14 the prophets there are all after the cross.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says that the way it worked in the OT is that people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit and "spoke from God" ...

That is exactly what happened in the NT.

Same Holy Spirit
Same gift of prophecy

Ephesians 4 says this is valid right up to the second coming

1 Cor 12
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

1 Cor 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Bible details "matter"

The NT Apostles were same as OT prophets, both spoke and recorded scripture, but those 2 Offices ceased after Apostolic Age ended.

1 Cor 12 is scripture -- it says prophets ARE NOT the same thing as Apostles.

So while it is true that Apostles also had a lot of other gifts it is pure fiction that all the other gifts are also prophets.

Your proposal failed in that regard.

And the initial point already made above - still stands.

no text in OT or NT says that all prophets are Apostles and we all know it.

At some point - "just making stuff up" cannot be the most compelling solution that you have to prove your view of doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

That was a simple exercise -- you selected out a few actual doctrines... misstated them.. then came up with "quotes of you" ... and I contrasted those speculative comments of yours with the actual facts.

A great "contrast" for the reader. I would hope that any resort to false accusation and mischaracterization would fizzle with such objectivity. Come up with better complaints by reducing your list to something you actually do have the details to support. Name-calling by itself is pretty much worthless.

 

[robycop3]

I am not debating you on that point - because the first step in testing a prophet is whether or not the doctrines that they claim God has endorsed - are one that actually fit with the Bible in my POV. For example no Baptist prophet could possibly be a "true" prophet in my view IF they claim to have a message from God that had incorrect doctrine in it.

That is "a given" for all denominations. Of course a Baptist prophet "might" simply get a message that 1 John 5:2-3 is correct that the we "Show the Love of God " in the way that John said "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments". That would be in harmony with the Baptist Faith and Message - and I would not think that they had contradicted scripture so I could not rule them out as being a true prophet simply because they had "other" beliefs that I knew were error but that they had not claimed to have a message from God endorsing those errors.

But in the case of Ellen White - I don't know of any Bible doctrine taught by the SDA church that she did not also claim to have a message from God - approving. .That would make it impossible for a non-SDA to accept here as a true prophet - without actually "doing the Bible study" find out what correct Bible doctrine is "first". So it is pointless for me to get into the sort of debate you ask for with Ellen White.

having said that - you did go out on a limb in the case below.





Your ability to flat out "make stuff up" is impressive.

I am not sure that you would say you are inclined to "let facts" get in the way of "a good emotional argument and story" - but that false accusation above is a case in point.

1. Ellen White had no visions from God until December 1844 having just turned 17 in November and at that time she was not held to be a prophet or a leader of any kind. Rather she was considered to be a "teenager" in the great Millerite movement where the leaders were very visible and vocal preachers and teachers from a wide range of denominations - no teens in that speakers list.

Thus not claims at all to having a vision from God predicting a date in 1843 or 1844 for the second coming.

2. After the Oct 22, 1844 event of the Millerites Ellen White started getting visions and key among them was the warning against any and all date setting and that the Oct 22,1844 end point for the 2300 year timeline of Daniel 8 was the last of all the endpoint specific dates that the Bible had --- no more were Biblical -- and even that one was never said in her visions to be a prediction of the second coming. In the Bible - it was a prediction about the work of Christ as High Priest in heaven.


Less emotionalism.. more actual facts please.. That works best in Bible study and in making accusations (if you must)

I quoted from her own writings. That's the clincher. She was a false prophet, proven false by her own words.

 

[Yeshua1]

That was a simple exercise -- you selected out a few actual doctrines... misstated them.. then came up with "quotes of you" ... and I contrasted those speculative comments of yours with the actual facts.

A great "contrast" for the reader. I would hope that any resort to false accusation and mischaracterization would fizzle with such objectivity. Come up with better complaints by reducing your list to something you actually do have the details to support. Name-calling by itself is pretty much worthless.

Sda denies the real Gospel, add law to Grace, forces traditions of a false prophetess to be same as the scripture. so best advice is to flee from that Apostae church!

 

[BobRyan]

Sda denies the real Gospel

Not n real life.

In real life the New Covenant already includes the 'Law of God written on the heart".

That ship has sailed.

 

[BobRyan]

robycop3 said: ↑
I'm not arguing that there are no prophets. But I AM arguing that EGW was not one of them.

I am not debating you on that point - because the first step in testing a prophet is whether or not the doctrines that they claim God has endorsed - are one that actually fit with the Bible in my POV. For example no Baptist prophet could possibly be a "true" prophet in my view IF they claim to have a message from God that had incorrect doctrine in it.

That is "a given" for all denominations. Of course a Baptist prophet "might" simply get a message that 1 John 5:2-3 is correct that the we "Show the Love of God " in the way that John said "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments". That would be in harmony with the Baptist Faith and Message - and I would not think that they had contradicted scripture so I could not rule them out as being a true prophet simply because they had "other" beliefs that I knew were error but that they had not claimed to have a message from God endorsing those errors.

But in the case of Ellen White - I don't know of any Bible doctrine taught by the SDA church that she did not also claim to have a message from God - approving. .That would make it impossible for a non-SDA to accept here as a true prophet - without actually "doing the Bible study" find out what correct Bible doctrine is "first". So it is pointless for me to get into the sort of debate you ask for with Ellen White.

having said that - you did go out on a limb in the case below.

She prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851, same as many other false prophets of various other cults have done every year for a long time.

Your ability to flat out "make stuff up" is impressive.

I am not sure that you would say you are inclined to "let facts" get in the way of "a good emotional argument and story" - but that false accusation above is a case in point.

1. Ellen White had no visions from God until December 1844 having just turned 17 in November and at that time she was not held to be a prophet or a leader of any kind. Rather she was considered to be a "teenager" in the great Millerite movement where the leaders were very visible and vocal preachers and teachers from a wide range of denominations - no teens in that speakers list.

Thus no claims at all to having a vision from God predicting a date in 1843 or 1844 for the second coming.

2. After the Oct 22, 1844 event of the Millerites Ellen White started getting visions and key among them was the warning against any and all date setting and that the Oct 22,1844 end point for the 2300 year timeline of Daniel 8 was the last of all the endpoint specific dates that the Bible had --- no more were Biblical -- and even that one was never said in her visions to be a prediction of the second coming. In the Bible - it was a prediction about the work of Christ as High Priest in heaven.


Less emotionalism.. more actual facts please.. That works best in Bible study and in making accusations (if you must)

I quoted from her own writings. That's the clincher. .

you quoted "something" but nothing that actually supported your wild flagrant accusations.

details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

so best advice is to flee from that Apostae church!

less emotionalism ...more actual fact please.

When reason vacates in regard to a given subject, the only weapons of argument left are in the hands of emotion. The simplest emotional weapons to wield are name-calling ,disparaging remarks, vitriol and acrimony for those deemed adversaries. All such ad hominem tactics provide nothing of persuasive substance, except to those whose reason has also been vacated on that same subject.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not n real life.

In real life the New Covenant already includes the 'Law of God written on the heart".

That ship has sailed.

You hold that we are conditional saved by Grace, but then MUST hold to the Sabbath and heed Ellen White teachings in order to complete/keep it! Another Gospel

 

[Yeshua1]

less emotionalism ...more actual fact please.

When reason vacates in regard to a given subject, the only weapons of argument left are in the hands of emotion. The simplest emotional weapons to wield are name-calling ,disparaging remarks, vitriol and acrimony for those deemed adversaries. All such ad hominem tactics provide nothing of persuasive substance, except to those whose reason has also been vacated on that same subject.

God commands us to come out of any so called church that denies the real Gospel, and elevates false prophets to place equal to reral ones of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not debating you on that point - because the first step in testing a prophet is whether or not the doctrines that they claim God has endorsed - are one that actually fit with the Bible in my POV. For example no Baptist prophet could possibly be a "true" prophet in my view IF they claim to have a message from God that had incorrect doctrine in it.

That is "a given" for all denominations. Of course a Baptist prophet "might" simply get a message that 1 John 5:2-3 is correct that the we "Show the Love of God " in the way that John said "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments". That would be in harmony with the Baptist Faith and Message - and I would not think that they had contradicted scripture so I could not rule them out as being a true prophet simply because they had "other" beliefs that I knew were error but that they had not claimed to have a message from God endorsing those errors.

But in the case of Ellen White - I don't know of any Bible doctrine taught by the SDA church that she did not also claim to have a message from God - approving. .That would make it impossible for a non-SDA to accept here as a true prophet - without actually "doing the Bible study" find out what correct Bible doctrine is "first". So it is pointless for me to get into the sort of debate you ask for with Ellen White.

having said that - you did go out on a limb in the case below.



Your ability to flat out "make stuff up" is impressive.

I am not sure that you would say you are inclined to "let facts" get in the way of "a good emotional argument and story" - but that false accusation above is a case in point.

1. Ellen White had no visions from God until December 1844 having just turned 17 in November and at that time she was not held to be a prophet or a leader of any kind. Rather she was considered to be a "teenager" in the great Millerite movement where the leaders were very visible and vocal preachers and teachers from a wide range of denominations - no teens in that speakers list.

Thus no claims at all to having a vision from God predicting a date in 1843 or 1844 for the second coming.

2. After the Oct 22, 1844 event of the Millerites Ellen White started getting visions and key among them was the warning against any and all date setting and that the Oct 22,1844 end point for the 2300 year timeline of Daniel 8 was the last of all the endpoint specific dates that the Bible had --- no more were Biblical -- and even that one was never said in her visions to be a prediction of the second coming. In the Bible - it was a prediction about the work of Christ as High Priest in heaven.


Less emotionalism.. more actual facts please.. That works best in Bible study and in making accusations (if you must)



you quoted "something" but nothing that actually supported your wild flagrant accusations.

details matter.

She had errors on the Sabbath, errors on the so called Inverstigative Judgement, errors on the Sda being true church, errors on Sunday as mark of the beast, on and on it goes!

 

[BobRyan]

She had errors on the Sabbath, errors on the so called Inverstigative Judgement, errors on the Sda being true church, errors on Sunday as mark of the beast, on and on it goes!

You have imagined error where there was none.