Seventh Day Adventists

[BobRyan]

They hold to an Arminian viewpoint on this, as he did not die in the actual palce of lost sinners , in their stead, else all would eventually be saved by God...

And far mor eimportantly...

The SDA denies that we are saved by grace alone/faith alone, as none of them have final assurance of eternal life here and now, as God will still be judging them after death to see if they maintained the SDA doctrines well enough to merit keeping eternal life...

If they fail thist testing, such as by rejecting the sabbath as still binding, then they forfeit life, and will be destroyed...

Almost all of that is false - (except that we are Arminian and not Calvinist - but apparently you were never informed about what the Arminian position is)

It is more interesting when people post something that we actually believe to complain about.

Making stuff up then complaining about the stuff you made up is a game "for one". Or are you just trying to improve your creative writing skills??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I believe they do hold to substitutionary atonement and that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. Why do you say they don't?

If I'm wrong, maybe Bob will correct me.

You are not wrong -- sir.

Well said.

Our view of the Bible statements on Atonement - includes the "Day of Atonement" that God describes in Lev 16 - where we find the work of CHRIST - both in the "Lamb of God" (The "Lord's Goat" - the "Sin offering" of Lev 16) and also the work of Christ as High Priest (also affirmed by Paul in Heb 8:1).

BOTH of Christ's works for us -- as sin offering AND as High Priest - are included in the Bible concept of Atonement.

So that as the NIV said in 1John 2:2 - on the cross Christ completed the "Atoning Sacrifice" the blood sacrifice - that provides payment for sin "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - 1John 2:2 NIV

Which is the Arminian POV affirmed in the Bible.

But the WHOLE WORLD is not saved because each person must personally embrace Christ and benefit from His work as our High Priest as we find in Heb 8, 9 and 10 - or they do not benefit from that completed "Atoning Sacrifice" at the cross.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

SDA denies the truths of the soul being immortal, that Jesus died as a substutition for lost sinners, that we are saved by grace alone faith alone, and hold to false revelations of a false prophetess!

Your first statement is true - because there is no Bible support for it.

The rest is just wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Now let's propose a nice fiction for those who prefer that Christ prove the "immortal soul" doctrine instead of His "but regarding the resurrection of the DEAD" statement.

1. The Sadducees come to Christ with this challenge "If only your doctrine about an immortal soul were true - then we would imagine that an immortal soul is in misery in heaven with God until those saints get a resurrected body - so then at some point there must be a resurrection to end their misery in non-body fellowship with God (who is spirit) having no physical body"

2. So then Christ responds "regarding the immortal soul -- have you not read that God said to Moses I AM the God of Abraham long after Abraham had died - which proves the immortal soul. You are free to imagine that such immortal souls in heaven in fellowship with God would be in misery if you wish - but I am not saying that. As far as I am concerned that is the end of the story".

3. Then Christ comes up with an un-named, never mentioned in Matt 22 argument for the future resurrection of those immortal souls[FONT=&quot], or [FONT=&quot]else leaves it up to the Sadducees to ima[FONT=&quot]gine such an argument for [FONT=&quot]Him.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]

And thus we have the sad fiction that Biblicist seems to prefer

This feels like some serious word acrobatics being played here. To say God cannot say He is the God of Abraham after Abraham had died, simply because "God is not the God of the dead," if off-base. The phrase "God of Abraham" does not necessarily mean "the God recognized by a currently living man named Abraham," but instead means "the God Abraham recognized."

It's kinda like Illinois calling itself the "Land of Lincoln." Abraham Lincoln has been dead for 150 years, yet Illinois stills claims to be his land. Per your argument of terminology, the phrase "Land of Lincoln" must mean Lincoln is still alive somewhere.

Agreed - Biblicists model is hard to find in the actual Bible.

Christ is the one making the point to the Sadducees that WITHOUT the future resurrection you cannot have God saying to Moses "I AM the God of Abraham".

Hint: Christ is PROVING the resurrection "OF THE DEAD" -- "But regarding the resurrection OF THE DEAD - Have you not read what God said to Moses"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]31 ""But [/FONT][FONT=&quot]regarding the resurrection of the dead[/FONT][FONT=&quot], have you not read…[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Christ is specifically proving the resurrection - nothing else![/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Rom4 - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—[/FONT][FONT=&quot]God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did[/FONT][FONT=&quot];NKJV[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So What is the result of Christ’s Bible-proof in this debate?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 22[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 When the crowds heard this, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they were astonished[/FONT][FONT=&quot] at His teaching.
34 But when the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] they gathered themselves together.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is a “grand-slam”.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The future resurrection or else "no hope".[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]about those who are asleep[/FONT][FONT=&quot], so that you will not [/FONT][FONT=&quot]grieve as do the rest who have no hope[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul points out above that WITHOUT that resurrection “there is no hope”. We would be as those who knew nothing but things in this life only.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So why all this focus on the resurrection? Because that is WHEN we are “WITH the LORD” which is the promise of John 14:1-3, and 1Thess 4[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. Abraham as one of the patriarchs like David - is "dead and buried" even in NT times. Acts 2:29 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. God is not "the God of the Dead but of the living" Matt 22 So then NOT the God of Abraham while "dead and buried" ( if there is no resurrection).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. " I am the God of Abraham" -- so there must be a future resurrection of Abraham.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rom4 - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—[/FONT][FONT=&quot]God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did[/FONT][FONT=&quot];NKJV


[FONT=&quot]Because in the Bible - there is "NO hope" for the saints apart from the future r[FONT=&quot]esurr[FONT=&quot]e[FONT=&quot]ction.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]about those who are asleep[/FONT][FONT=&quot], so that you will not [/FONT][FONT=&quot]grieve as do the rest who have no hope[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul points out above that WITHOUT that resurrection “there is no hope”. We would be as those who knew nothing but things in this life only.[/FONT]

Does the SDA pay Bob Ryan by the word for posting here? :laugh:

And what is with all the CAPS, bolding, italicization, underlining and "quotation marks" where there is no "quote"?

You choose to post in form of "so much Bible to be ignored -- so little time" -- why not make some insightful comment about the scriptures posted "instead"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

on this thread #1 we have the Seventh-day Adventist church growing by leaps and bounds in these last days. And the current thread we questions asked about specific doctrines of the SDA church.

The less "insightful" the more circle-the-wagons-and-deny-all that comprise the challenge to those doctrines - the more it "helps explain" why the SDA church is growing so fast.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

on this thread #1 we have the Seventh-day Adventist church growing by leaps and bounds in these last days. And the current thread we questions asked about specific doctrines of the SDA church.

The less "insightful" the more circle-the-wagons-and-deny-all that comprise the challenge to those doctrines - the more it "helps explain" why the SDA church is growing so fast.

I'm not accustomed to this kind of reasoning from you ...

 

[BobRyan]

So much focus on the RCC lately - still this is a good thread by Rebel

 

[tyndale1946]

I'm not accustomed to this kind of reasoning from you ...

Me neither... You know there are more denomination that you can shake a stick at... Many will say well that is a false religion... Is that the Christian business to point them out? We are told to follow Christ! As our understanding allows us that's what we do. We read, we study and we follow Christ as Christ has enabled us by the enlightenment we have. One brother or one sister may not believe the way I do and you know what that's ok. We always try to build ourselves up by tearing something or someone else down. The Pharisee and the Publican are a good example. Who went down to his house justified? The one who asked for mercy because of his condition, which is the condition of all men. For ALL men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Be careful when you point the finger as the finger you point always points back to you. I know I've been guilty of the same. I have been traveling on this road with my God for over 50 years and during that time I have learned that Gods children are everywhere. Worshipping The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ according to the dictates and understanding of their hearts. There are many enemies to the Gospel of Jesus Christ but be careful because they are still loved by the Father and are his children!... Brother Glen:godisgood:

 

[BobRyan]

Christianity Today makes some interesting comments in that regard.

Christianity Today -

"In 2014, for the 10th year in a row, more than 1 million people became Adventists, hitting a record 18.1 million members. Adventism is now the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide, after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the Assemblies of God."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...arson-church-stay-separatist.html?logout=true

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My reason vacated. Or has it gone on a sabbatical?

 

[BobRyan]

I don't hear much about the Anglican church so I was surprised that they were ranked above the "Assemblies of God" in that Christianity Today article.

So the Anglican church is listed as number 3 on that list but apparently not for their adherents in England.

Key facts about the Church of England:

Church attendance and visits

• In October 2013, approximately 1 million people participated in a Church of England service each week. (Statistics for Mission, 2013)
• In 2013, approximately 2.4 million people participated in a Church of England service on Christmas Day or Christmas Eve. During the same year, 1.3 million people attended an Easter service. (Statistics for Mission, 2013)
• A survey in December 2014, indicated that 45% of adults in England attended a church or chapel for reasons ranging from tourism to worship. 60% of Christians in Britain reported having visited a church within the last year and 44% reported having attended a religious service.(ComRes, December 2014)
• Around 10 million people visit a Church of England cathedral each year. Each week, around 38,000 people take part in a service within these buildings. (Cathedral Statistics, 2013)

https://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/facts-stats.aspx

And then there is

Today the Anglican Communion is 38 autonomous national and regional Churches plus six Extra Provincial Churches and dioceses; all of which are in Communion - in a reciprocal relationship - with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is the Communion's spiritual head.

There is no Anglican central authority such as a pope. Each Church makes its own decisions in its own ways, guided by recommendations from the Lambeth Conference, Anglican Consultative Council, the Primates' Meeting and the Archbishop of Canterbury.

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/identity/about.aspx

 

[Rebel]

I don't hear much about the Anglican church so I was surprised that they were ranked above the "Assemblies of God" in that Christianity Today article.

So the Anglican church is listed as number 3 on that list but apparently not for their adherents in England.



And then there is

The Anglican Communion is being torn apart by the gay marriage/gay ordination issue. Do a search on "Anglican realignment".

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for the reminder. I think the Presbyterian church (one of the divisions of it) is headed down that same road.

as for Anglicans

Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans ...rejects not only the "false Gospel" of the North-American Anglicans, and their "unscriptural" endorsement of homosexuality, but also what they call the "colonial" domination of the global Anglican Church by northern, liberal mentalities.

http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/anglican-‘realignment’-takes-shape

 

[Yeshua1]

As already stated on this thread - the "investigative" term merely refers to facts recorded in books in Dan 7 used in judgment "the court sat and the BOOKs were opened" Dan 7

And as for "Leavens by freemason Ellen G. White" -- making stuff up is not allowed. I have no intention of defending a position that someone else dreams up. Whoever dreamed it will have to defend it.

in Christ,

Bob

It is FAR more then that though, as the SDA does hold through the teaching of their false prophetess that NONE have the assurance of keeping eternal life, as we all have to stand before god and be judged as to just how much of the SDA doctrines we supported, especially keeping the Sabbath day!

salavtion by works, palin and simple!

And the SDA just has to come clean and renounce their false prophetess and all of her false doctrines in order to reallyu be a legit church, just as the gardner ted Armstrong church refuting their founder!

 

[BobRyan]

As already stated on this thread - the "investigative" term merely refers to facts recorded in books in Dan 7 used in judgment "the court sat and the BOOKs were opened" Dan 7

And as for "Leavens by freemason Ellen G. White" -- making stuff up is not allowed. I have no intention of defending a position that someone else dreams up. Whoever dreamed it will have to defend it.

oh and did I mention that we are Arminian.

So also was Wesley.

It is FAR more then that though, as the SDA does hold through the teaching of their false prophetess that NONE have the assurance of keeping eternal life,

OSAS is false doctrine.

Matt 18 proves it with forgiveness revoked.

Romans 11 proves it with "you should FEAR for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"

All the "persevere" texts prove it in terms of their warnings against falling.

That is old news.

The emotional baggage you use to make your point is not at all compelling. It would far more mature and effective if you were to rely more on actual facts, compelling logic than to constantly resort to emotionalism and name-calling.

This may "seem" like a shocking idea to you at first - but trust me it is a far better method of communication, debate or whatever it is you would like to think of threads like this.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Arguing with Arminians is like arguing with atheists. It is never of any worth or avail. Both have their own opinion of their own cause and of their own selves cast in steel enforced concrete.
It's like arguing with a Catholic over transubstantiation or baptismal regeneration.

 

[Yeshua1]

oh and did I mention that we are Arminian.

So also was Wesley.




OSAS is false doctrine.

Matt 18 proves it with forgiveness revoked.

Romans 11 proves it with "you should FEAR for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"

All the "persevere" texts prove it in terms of their warnings against falling.

That is old news.

The emotional baggage you use to make your point is not at all compelling. It would far more mature and effective if you were to rely more on actual facts, compelling logic than to constantly resort to emotionalism and name-calling.

This may "seem" like a shocking idea to you at first - but trust me it is a far better method of communication, debate or whatever it is you would like to think of threads like this.

in Christ,

Bob

the SDA denies that we are saved eternally, that we can be secure in our salbation, and heed the false teachings of a false prophetess...

 

[BobRyan]

I am pleased you are willing to respond to Matt 18 and Romans 11 as if they are "SDA".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

I am pleased you are willing to respond to Matt 18 and Romans 11 as if they are "SDA".

in Christ,

Bob

NEITHER passage supports the "truth" though of a real Christian losing eternal life, as Jesus promised that NONE he saved would ever get lost again!

Why does the SDA believe that their prophetess was right on this, and jesus was wrong?