Sheep and Goats

[pituophis]

AMEN DeafPosttrib!

People need to exegete the scripture.

Me4Him said, "Is your reading comprehension this bad for everything you read, or is it just a "Spiritual blindness"??? "

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." (NIV)
Thanks for the critisism...but I believe it was Jesus who said this quote in John chapter 10? Also, if you believe that Christ died for the sins of everyone the same, then all are going to enter into heaven...their sins are paid for after all...?

The problem lies with WHO is ultimatley responsible for the salvation of an individual? Is it God or Man? Who is going to get the glory?

 

[Mel Miller]

DeafPosttrib,

I submit some of our responders are treating serious words of Jesus as a joke! While I agree with you that Matt.25:32-46 is simple to understand, IMO its fulfillment requires the existence of the TREE OF LIFE and BOOK OF LIFE after the Millennium and the creation of the new Heaven and Earth before His words are fulfilled!

There is a real problem with reconciling the textus receptus for the KJV and those of the V and S Majority Text. Let’s look at how this problem works out in respect to the Book of
Life and Tree of Life. A seeming contradiction?

KJV - God will remove names out of the *Book of Life* and from the New Jerusalem.
MT - God will remove them from the *Tree of Life* and the New Jerusalem. Rev.22:19.

If both are true, and I believe they are, then we must find the connection between the *Book of Life and the Tree of Life” at the creation of a
new Heaven and Earth.

We find the Bride of the Lamb described as “The New Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven prepared as the Bride, the Lamb’s wife”. Rev.21:2,9. The Bride will forever partake of the 12 kinds of fruit trees of the TREE OF LIFE found on either side of the river in heaven.
Rev.22:1-2.

But the “nations” must enter from the earth and be “healed by the LEAVES of the Tree of Life”. This is true from BOTH the KJV and the Majority Text. Rev.22:2. The Bride does not need healing
by the "Leaves" of the Tree of Life!

There will be “no more temple in the New Jerusalem because God and the Lamb are its Temple”. Rev.21:22. The 1000-Year “Reign with Christ” in the Temple of heaven by those
“beheaded for Christ shall have been finished”, John predicted (using the Aorist Subjunctive to
prove the 1000 years predates the resurrection of the “rest of the dead”; Rev.20:5). These Martyrs "reign with Christ and serve God as Pillars in heaven's Temple for 1000 years ... Post-Mill. Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.

“The rest of the dead do NOT come to life until the 1000 years are finished. They live again” after the Millennium and are judged out of “the books”. But there also appears a Book of Life that could be different than the Lamb's Book of Life. Rev.20:5,12; Rev.13:8.

Here the present earth is destroyed (Rev.20:11)and the Book of Life is opened along with the
Books. The rest of those who died before the
first resurrection, as well as those who die during the Millennium, live again when the 1000 years “shall be finished” (Aorist Subjunctive again; proof of the prior Millennial Period for Martyrs to “serve God as Pillars in the Temple of Heaven”). Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4,5.

Now the problem becomes acute by comparing the KJV and Majority Text. While the Lamb's Bride eats of the FRUITS of the Tree of Life, many (goat nations) will be “separated from the sheep and cast into Hell” and only the sheep will be
healed by the LEAVES of the Tree of Life. Sheep constitute the rest of the dead who “keep the commandments of God”. Rev.22:12; Rev.22:14. KJV.

The MT shows these who are "barred from the Tree of Life" (Not just the Book of Life) as having failed to "wash their robes". This seems to contradict that the condition for inclusion in the *Tree of Life* (Rev.22:14; both the KJV and MT) depends on keeping what Jesus requires of the "nations who inherit the Kingdom on earth or else are cast into Hell". Matt.25:32-46.

The result of not "keeping God's commandments" is that of being KEPT from the Tree of Life during the Millennium and therefore of being removed from the BOOK OF LIFE! It is more than
a matter of not having been "washed by the
blood of the Lamb". Here the KJV is superior!!

Only “saved nations who keep God’s commandments” (KJV) are allowed to “enter the New Jerusalem at any time, day or night from earth. They will walk by its light and bring their glory and honor into the city and be healed by the leaves of the TREE OF LIFE”. Rev.22:2; Rev.21:24-26.

While the MT refers to “nations” entering the New Jerusalem for healing by the leaves of the Tree of Life, it omits the word “saved” and limits those who may “enter the City” to those with "washed robes". Rev.21:24; Rev.22:14. It
fails to deal with those nations that "treat
the least of Jesus' brethren as they treated Him
in an outward fashion only by keeping the sacrifices during the Millennium. Zech.14:16!!

Since even the MT specifies that those who are allowed to be “healed by the leaves of the Tree of Life” do come from the nations remaining on earth after the 1000 years are finished, its identification of those who are “removed from the Tree of Life” MUST agree with the KJV for those also “removed from the Book of Life”!

Would any of you AGREE this opens up a “new” interpretive context to fulfill the final (7th) “blessing” of Revelation? Like the 4th blessing given to incipient members of the Sheep Nations who will be *guests* at the Post-Mill Supper of the Lamb (Rev.19:9), the number will finally be as great as the “stars of heaven” so that THIS BLESSING is the realization of God’s promise to Abraham that in his (natural) seed
"ALL the nations will be blessed"!

I am not implying that anyone's view of Israel as the Church is wrong if it is understood we are the "spiritual seed" of Abraham!!

This final blessing in Revelation still comes through the seed of Abraham and Isaac, Christ Himself, but the full blessing reveals what God means by His promise to “show mercy to all” nations AFTER He has demonstrated that Gentiles, as well as Jews, were “disobedient to the Gospel of Grace". Rom.11:30-33. God will “show mercy to those who keep His commandments” during the Millennim and are eligible to “inherit the eternal kingdom on the earth”. Matt.25:32-34.

While a separate “Book of Life” could explain
this whole matter, it also opens the door for a
“first chance” to those who have never heard the Gospel and are resurrected Post-Mill.

If so, they would only become eligible for
“inheriting the earthly kingdom when God’s will shall forever be done on earth as in heaven”!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
lol... the angry beavers was absolutely hilarious....

I wish it was still on here... my fav episode was when they were all super heroes...

I'm glad someone got the reference. We still get AB on Nicktoons, and I even have a DVD with the "lost episodes", the last "finished" season, which Nickelodeon can't run anymore for some reason - probably contract dispute. There was one more season but the toons weren't finished or aired.

My daughter can't understand why I watch the same episodes again and again, and I still laugh after seeing the same joke for the 50th time.

My favorite is the Halloween special (the visit to Oxnard Montalvo), with voice acting by Adrienne Barbeau, Jonathan Haze, William Schallert, Peter Graves, John Byner -- all has-beens but greats.

I also like the Kid Friendly episode (narrated by Waylon Jennings), and the Silent but Deadly episode paired with it. Heck, I like 'em all, almost.

I'm also a big fan of Richard Horvitz and his voice acting. He's done a lot of other voices, but he nailed Daggett's personality so well that Daggett will always be my favorite.

Nick Bakay nailed Norbert's personality, too, but I get the impression he doesn't have the depth of Richard Horvitz. All the other work Bakay has done (at least what I've seen) has pretty much been just his regular voice with no personality.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
DeafPosttrib,

I submit some of our responders are treating serious words of Jesus as a joke! While I agree with you that Matt.25:32-46 is simple to understand, IMO its fulfillment requires the existence of the TREE OF LIFE and BOOK OF LIFE after the Millennium and the creation of the new Heaven and Earth before His words are fulfilled!


The result of not "keeping God's commandments" is that of being KEPT from the Tree of Life during the Millennium and therefore of being removed from the BOOK OF LIFE! It is more than
a matter of not having been "washed by the
blood of the Lamb". Here the KJV is superior!!

Only “saved nations who keep God’s commandments” (KJV) are allowed to “enter the New Jerusalem at any time, day or night from earth. They will walk by its light and bring their glory and honor into the city and be healed by the leaves of the TREE OF LIFE”. Rev.22:2; Rev.21:24-26.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

I absolutely agree with you concerning the necessity of living a Christian life. I personally don't understand how Christians can ignore the clear description of the Final Judgement in MA 25 and Rev 20. They both talk about a judgement based on Christian works.

 

[Mel Miller]

StraightAndNarrow,
Quote:
_____________________________________________
I absolutely agree with you concerning the necessity of living a Christian life. I personally don't understand how Christians can ignore the clear description of the Final Judgement in MA 25 and Rev 20. They both talk about a judgement based on Christian works.
______________________________________________

We must maintain, of course, that during the
present age salvation itself comes solely by
grace through faith. Rewards are based on our
works.

However, during the Millennium those eligible
for "inheriting the kingdom on earth" must
keep the commandment to worship God at Jerusalem
annually and be "healed by the leaves of the tree
of life" (Ezek.47:12) and be judged at the end by how they treat the "least of Jesus' brothers".

During eternity those who "inherit the kingdom
on earth" because they kept the commandments of
God (Rev.22:2,14; KJV) must continue to be
"healed by the leaves of the tree of life".

But those who did not keep the commandments and
were not "healed by the leaves of the tree of
life" during the Millennium will be "removed
from the Book of Life". Rev.22:14,19; KJV.

Other versions say they will be removed from the "Tree of Life" rather than the "Book of Life". But the result is the same because
only those who "inherit the eternal kingdom
on earth" will be allowed to enter the New
Jerusalem to be "healed by the leaves" of the
Tree of Life. Rev.22:2,14.

That means the final "blessing" of Rev.22:14
applies only to those nations saved during the 1000 year reign of Christ over the earth. They
will have a right to healed by the (leaves of the) tree of life in the New Jerusalem even though they "walk in the light of the New
Jerusalem and dwell on the earth forever". Rev.21:24-26.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[2BHizown]

Sheep/goats

Hopefully we all see that Christ called the sheep. He did not call the goats.
Same with wheat/tares. The wheat are called. The tares are professors, but not posessors!
He said that He knows them that are His! He isnt speaking of goats or tares.

Many are called, that is many hear the Word, but few are chosen, by Him to be His own!

 

[Mel Miller]

2BHizown,

God has chosen a "few", it is true, to make up the Lamb's Bride. But I think we need to realize that His future plan, once Christ appears and rules the nations of earth, that there will be countless numbers who choose to worship God alone.

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
Many are called, that is many hear the Word, but few are chosen, by Him to be His own!
___________________________________________________________

It seems that God's Purpose during the Millennium is that "all will know Him from the least to the greatest" and that the numbers will be so great that members of the sheep nations may be as numerous as the "stars of heaven" while those of goat nations will be as numberous as the "sand of the sea". Rev.20:8.

The popular view that Christ will "separate the sheep and goat nations" upon His return to earth lacks both reason and transparency. It lacks reason because "all
those left of the nations" that come against Christ at the end of this present age must show their willingness to be His sheep by "worshiping God at Jerusalem each year". Zech.14:16-21.

The popular view lacks perspicuity because all those who reject Christ as Lord
and Savior prior to, and even including, the Day Christ appears will be "fed to the birds". Luke 17:37; Rev.21:17-18,21.

Only after Jesus rules the nations as "King of kings and Lord of lords" for 1000 years may there be sheep nations with members as numerous as the stars of heaven and goat nations as the sand of the sea. Only then will they have been tested to see whether they qualify to "inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the earth's foundation" and for those who "keep God's commandments and have
earned the right to enter the New Jerusalem at any time to be healed by the leaves of the Tree of Life". Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.

The End of the Age to Come is the only possible time that goat nations will be judged and "cast into Hell" forever; while the sheep nations "inherit the kingdom on earth and totally fulfill God's will on earth as it is in heaven". Matt.25:31-46. I see no reason for and no clarity to the idea, instead of salvation being based on the individual's faith in Christ OR lack thereof, that whole nations will be judged at the start of the Millennium based on whether they have "treated the least of Jesus' brothers as they would treat Him"! Matt.25:40,45. In fact, it is only then that the goat nations will be "cast into outer darkness" and the sheep inherit the Kingdom!
:thumbs:
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[npetreley]

Many are called, that is many hear the Word, but few are chosen, by Him to be His own!

I agree, but just to give it some context. "Many are called but few are chosen" comes at the end of parables explaining that the word will go out to more nations than just the Jews. So the "many" means "not just Jews". But even though the word is going out to the rest of the world, few (from among all nations) are actually chosen.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I agree, but just to give it some context. "Many are called but few are chosen" comes at the end of parables explaining that the word will go out to more nations than just the Jews. So the "many" means "not just Jews". But even though the word is going out to the rest of the world, few (from among all nations) are actually chosen.

The called are called from among the saved. When you equate election with spiritual salvation, then confusion will ensue, and God is not the author of confusion.

2 Timothy 1:9 tells us, "Who has saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace." "Before the world began." Literally, "before times age-lasting". The beginnings of our purpose in God is from before time was reckoned by ages or years or cycles of any sort. It’s from the time before the world existed as we know it. This idea goes along with the idea of Christ’s pre-existence. In that timeless present, grace was given to us in God’s decree, even though we did not yet exist! Before time, God had a purpose and a calling for us! That's exciting to think about!

But, we see in 2 Timothy 1:9 that Spiritual salvation comes before the calling; he has saved us and called us, not called us and saved us. We are told in Matthew 22:14, “For many are called, but few are chosen.” Not all are called! The many in this verse are called not unto salvation, because the invitation to be saved is not limited to just many, but it’s to every person who comes into this world. The calling is a holy calling and it’s given after a person is saved. Out of the many that are called, a few are chosen or elect, or called-out.

Hebrews 3:1: Wherefore, holy brethren [talking to obedient saved people, not all saved people; brethren are those who are obedient], partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; The holy calling is a heavenly calling and 1 Thessalonians tells us that it is unto his Kingdom and glory. (1 Thessalonians 2:12: That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called [present, active, participle] you unto his kingdom and glory.)

All who are saved will see the Kingdom, but not all the saved will enter the Kingdom.

Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Not all his children are doing his will. This is talking about saved people. If you have any doubts about that, 1 Corinthians 12:3 tells us, "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost Spirit. Not all his children are doing his will!

It's like those who followed Jesus on this Earth. He had thousands of people who were following him at a distance; they were saved. But, out of those only a few were his disciples. ("Disciple" is much more than someone who is spiritually saved.) Out of his disciples, only a few were chosen or elect to be apostles. Out of the apostles even, only a few were called out or chosen or elect to be present with him in the garden, and only one of those went all the way with him.

 

[pituophis]

Hope of Glory,
Where did you ever come up with the kingdom of heaven is not heaven in Matt 7? Saved people go to heaven, lost people don't! And in Hebrews bretheren are just obedient saved people? Are you one of those millenial exclusionists?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hope of Glory,

Matt. 7:21 - Christ talks about at the judgment day, many will say to Lord, that they did do works for the Lord. But, Lord shall tell them depart from him into everlasting punishment because of their INIQIUITY(wicked/sins). This verse is speak of toward unbelievers or disobedient people who shall cast away into everlastting fire. Matt. 7:21 never saying it is so called, 'millennial kingdom'. Because Christ doesn't saying it is 'a thousand years'. Use our common sense that 'kingdom of God/heaven' is speak of eternality life with the Lord.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Hope of Glory,
Where did you ever come up with the kingdom of heaven is not heaven in Matt 7? Saved people go to heaven, lost people don't! And in Hebrews bretheren are just obedient saved people? Are you one of those millenial exclusionists?

I could quote a similar question back at you: Where did you ever get the notion that the Kingdom of the Heavens is simply spiritual salvation?

But, to see that he's referring to the Kingdom, you simply have to remember that this is still part of the sermon on the Mount. He's speaking to disciples; he's speaking to those who are already saved, and giving them instructions for living. (First of all, spiritual salvation is not of works, and if it were, why would he be giving those instructions to those who are already saved?)

But, there are many references throughout the sermon on the Mount referring to entering the Kingdom of the Heavens, but Matthew 7:21 says specifically, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." It's talking about entering into the Kingdom of the Heavens, and not salvation. These people called him "Lord"! They are saves people already; he's not telling them how to be saved, he's telling them how to live in order to gain an entrance.

Matthew 12:50 is one of the verses that tells us that the brethren are obedient Christians. It's similar to "the saints"; not all those who are saved are referred to as "saints" in the Bible, although many men do refer to them that way.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hope of Glory,

You say,

but Matthew 7:21 says specifically, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." It's talking about entering into the Kingdom of the Heavens, and not salvation. These people called him, "Lord"! They are saves people already...

The context of Matthew 7:13-23 talking about individual's fruits, and people's two future eternality destiny - hell or heaven. Christ warns us, that we ought to watch out for false pastors, leaders, preists, teachers. Because many people are already deceived and lead by their leaders on the way to hell. The context of verse 21-23 talking about the future judgment day. Christ knows many religions believe Christ is the Lord. My family is Lutherans, they believe Jesus is the Lord. Many religions like, Catholics, Mehtodists, Lutherans, Nazarenth, Baptists, etc. believe Jesus is the Lord. In the judgment day, many religions will saying to Christ, "Lord, Lord, I did do good works for you. But, Christ shall saying to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work INIQUITY." Christ speaks of sending a person go to everlasting punishment in the lake of fire, because of iniquity without repentance.

Matthew 7:21 is not deal with millennial issue, it talks about judgment day. Because many people desire and having their false hope for eternal life in the heaven by doing good works.

Same with Matt. 25:31-46, Christ shall saying to the goats, why they do not do hospitality to people, like, to witness gospel to people, why not helping people, same with the relationship between Christ and person.

Notice John 5:29 says: "And shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and they that HAVE DONE EVIL, unto the resurrection of damnation.[/B]."

Very clear, Christ tells us, that we ought to obey the commandments, follow Christ all the way, shall have eternal life. But, if we do not obey the commandments, and not follow Christ, and do wicked life, shall go into everlasting punishment.

Very clear and simple.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

Very clear, Christ tells us, that we ought to obey the commandments, follow Christ all the way, shall have eternal life. But, if we do not obey the commandments, and not follow Christ, and do wicked life, shall go into everlasting punishment.

DPT that is a works based salvation and the Bible is clear that eternal salvation has nothing to do with our works, but the works of Another.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J. ,

Care to explaining us of John 5:29 says, "..they that HAVE DONE GOOD , UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; ???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[npetreley]

Very clear, Christ tells us, that we ought to obey the commandments, follow Christ all the way, shall have eternal life. But, if we do not obey the commandments, and not follow Christ, and do wicked life, shall go into everlasting punishment.

Yes, it IS very clear and simple. But so is the statement "without Me you can do nothing". The reason we even have the ability to do good works is because He lives in us and it is through His power that we do anything good. No single verse of scripture is an island. You can't yank out a verse that SOUNDS like you have to do good in order to get eternal life and then isolate it from the verse that says we can do nothing on our own.

The above quote (not yours, the scriptural quote) is not about what you have to do in order to get eternal life, but about what saved people do vs. what people without Jesus do, which is live a wicked life. Like the above post says, anything else would amount to a works-based salvation, which is totally unbiblical.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

npetreley,

I know where Christ's quote as what you recently shown to me. He saying, 'Without me, ye can do nothing.' this is find in John 15:5.

Understand, the context of John 15:1-8 talking about our fruits. At the first place, if a person do not have Christ(salvation), then person's works are worthless. A person have to accept Christ, then Christ shall abide in a person to process and carry fruit. John 15:6-8 telling us, we are commanded to be abide in Christ and to carry fruit, or if we do not abide in Christ, and do not carry fruits, then shall be cut off cast into fire. That means, we must be endure in Christ all the way to the end then shall be saved (Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13), OR, if we do not endure for Christ by the time we die, then we shall not be saved, cast into everlasting fire.

Now, please can you care to explain John 5:29- "they that HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life"? What this is talking about?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

DPT you are definitely preaching a works based salvation, which is in direct violation of Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31.

We are not eternally saved by our works. If this was so the death of Christ means absolutely nothing and salvation is not about grace, but about wages.

You are absolutely incorrect with your views of salvation. There really is no other way to put it. You need to trust in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus the Lamb of God for your salvation and forgiveness of sins and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING else.

I pray God will show you His Truth!!!

 

[J. Jump]

Double post - apologies

 

[Hope of Glory]

Works are works are works!

How difficult is this to understand?

Whether you work to earn your salvation, to prove your salvation, or to maintain your salvation, works are works are works!

Our spiritual salvation is not dependent upon our works, thank God! It's dependent upon the finished work of the Lord Jesus upon the cross.

DPT, let me ask you a question: What must I do to be saved?

You should be able to answer it in one sentence.