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Should a Christian Serve in the Military?
- Thread starter Brice
- Start date
StraightAndNarrow said:By far the majority of the deaths in Iraq are innocent Iraqi civilians. Hundreds of thousands vs. 30K Americans.
You can't blame the vast majority of the deaths that resulted from terrorist suicide bombers on American Soilders.:BangHead:
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StraightAndNarrow said:Do you really believe that soldiers carry the gospel as they kill their enemies? I don't accept that view.
You fail to grasp that fact that the soldiers do more than just shoot at people. When they are interacting with the civilian population, showing them acts of kindness, helping rebuild schools and other infrastructure needs, they surely can share the gospel with the people they meet.
guitarpreacher
New Member
StraightAndNarrow said:By far the majority of the deaths in Iraq are innocent Iraqi civilians. Hundreds of thousands vs. 30K Americans.
Probably true if you count the deaths of the innocents who died from the bombs of the terrorist. If you are suggesting that hundreds of thousands of innocents died at the hands of American soldiers you are wrong and are a scoundrel for suggesting such.
Enjoy your freedom today, sir, and try to remember who's paying the price to secure it.
Joshua Rhodes
<img src=/jrhodes.jpg>
Yes, a Christian should serve if called to that as ministry OR if their sense of duty suggests that it is prudent. While I never dreamed of entering the military, I support and appreciate those who serve our country both here and abroad, many of whom are my family. One of my best friends from high school is in Afghanistan under the tutelage of one of the finest army chaplains there is, so that he in turn can serve as a chaplain in another unit soon.
guitarpreacher said:Probably true if you count the deaths of the innocents who died from the bombs of the terrorist. If you are suggesting that hundreds of thousands of innocents died at the hands of American soldiers you are wrong and are a scoundrel for suggesting such.
Enjoy your freedom today, sir, and try to remember who's paying the price to secure it.
amen! Thank you, both you and Bible-boy, for making these important points.
North Carolina Tentmaker
New Member
Brice
I served in the Army and it was a great experience. I was an ROTC officer. Just pray about it and be sure that is where God is leading you. Be careful of this reserve/active idea. You may think you are going to be reserve but the Army may have other ideas. I was supposed to be commissioned into the Georgia National Guard, but my Senior Year of college I got this letter from the secretary of the Army with other plans. I'll never forget it said "Congradulations, due to the needs of the Army you have been selected for active duty." Of course I did not plan on active duty, but it worked out.
I served in the Army and it was a great experience. I was an ROTC officer. Just pray about it and be sure that is where God is leading you. Be careful of this reserve/active idea. You may think you are going to be reserve but the Army may have other ideas. I was supposed to be commissioned into the Georgia National Guard, but my Senior Year of college I got this letter from the secretary of the Army with other plans. I'll never forget it said "Congradulations, due to the needs of the Army you have been selected for active duty." Of course I did not plan on active duty, but it worked out.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Bible-boy said:You fail to grasp that fact that the soldiers do more than just shoot at people. When they are interacting with the civilian population, showing them acts of kindness, helping rebuild schools and other infrastructure needs, they surely can share the gospel with the people they meet.
They are showing them acts of kindness by killing them?
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
bapmom said:S&N,
hate is not required in effective combat...in fact it ought to be avoided.
If a person comes after me or mine to harm us, than I don't have to hate them in order to defend myself.
Actually, I need to edit this in order to say that I would not try to convince you, S&N, that YOU ought to serve in the military. If it goes against your conscience than you should heed that. Don't join the military!
But I would try to encourage you to not condemn, judge or look down upon those of us who do not have the same difficulties with military service as you do. Do you know what I mean?
No. The scripture I quoted said to do good to those who hate US, not the other way around. Do you understand?
StraightAndNarrow said:They are showing them acts of kindness by killing them?
They are not killing the civilian population as you seem to be suggesting. Yes, in war some collateral civilian deaths occur. However, the soldiers do not intentionally target civilians. Again, you fail to grasp the fact that our soldiers are doing more than just shooting at people. They are actively engaged in helping the civilian population of Iraq rebuild the country. So yes, our soldiers do get the chance to interact with the civilian population in non-combat situations and yes, they do show those folks acts of kindness. Have you not seen the news reports of our soldiers handing out toys to kids and sharing their own food with the needy? Or do you just want to try and paint our soldiers as blood-thirsty killers?
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Steven2006
New Member
Here are a few verses to prayerfully consider on the subject.
For the Son of man is not is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. Luke 9:56
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; this is the first commandment. And the second is like namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these Mark 12:30,31
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:10
But I say to unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:39
Love ye your enimies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Luke 6:35
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52
If ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespassess, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14,15
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:29
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. 2 Cor. 10:4
For the Son of man is not is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. Luke 9:56
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; this is the first commandment. And the second is like namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these Mark 12:30,31
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:10
But I say to unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:39
Love ye your enimies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Luke 6:35
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52
If ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespassess, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14,15
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:29
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. 2 Cor. 10:4
I think what you are experiencing is the tension between the ideas of Christian Pacifism and Christian Just War Theory. The following material comes from my notes in Dr. Mark Liederbach’s Christian Ethics class (and is used by permission). Let’s look at what the Bible has to say about the ideas of strict Christian Pacifism and Christian Just War Theory.
Christian pacifists generally hold tightly to the English translation (such as in the KJV) “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex. 20:13, KJV). However, the Hebrew language in that text and other OT passages does not bear out a strict interpretation meaning “no killing” (consider Deut. 7:1-6). Thus, the passage in Ex. 20:13 is better understood and more rightly translated as “You shall not murder” as in the NASB.
Second, Christian pacifists appeal to Jesus’ example of non-violent resistance. However, Jesus’ specific teachings on the subject indicate elements of both sides (pacifism and Just War).
a. Matt. 5:9—blessed are the peacemakers
b. Matt. 5:21-22a—anger and murder
c. Matt. 5:38-39—turn the other cheek
d. Matt. 10:34—“I did not come to bring peace… but the sword.”
e. Matt. 26:50-56—He had the ability to wage war, but did not resort to war.
Clearly Jesus’ teaching has a very pacifistic streak. However, we must consider the whole counsel of God’s Word on the subject. Consider, Rom. 13:1-7 where we understand that the state is given responsibility to “bear the sword.” This passage is generally understood to mean that God has granted the state the authority to bear the sword for the purpose of capital punishment and to make war (under certain specific circumstances). Finally, we must not forget about the rest of the story found in Rev. 19. Here we clearly see that Jesus wages war.
The problem with a strict Christian pacifist prohibition against all killing and war is that it conflicts with the fact that God commanded war (the Israelite conquest of the Promised Land and that Jesus will return as a Warrior King and wage war). Thus, a strict Christian pacifist position which claims that all war is simply wrong actually impugns God because He commanded war. The Scriptures depict three types of warfare commanded by God.
a. Unlimited Holy War (Josh. 6:21-24, 8:24-25, 10:2-40, 11:11-23)
b. Limited Warfare (Deut. 20:19-20)
c. Zealous Rebellion (Judges 6:11-7:25, 13:1-16:31)
Clearly Christians must avoid the Crusader mentality. Problems and characteristics of Crusades:
a. Crusades treat war as an unconditional effort of good vs. evil—no gray areas
b. Crusades treat war as a matter of religion
c. Crusades have little or no place for moral restraint in actions taken against enemies
d. Because good cannot compromise with evil, and because it requires “total war,” crusade has little or no place for surrender of any kind
e. Wars of crusade are fought for the purpose of imposing, achieving, or expanding ideals usually conceived on an universal or cosmological scale
f. Crusades oppose the whole social order and value system of an enemy, not just a few leading individuals, or a few narrow interests. In a war of crusade, no one can be exempted
g. In crusade, soldiers participate with zeal (i.e. suicide bombers & 9/11 terrorists, etc)
h. Crusades require no declaration of war. Anyone with zeal for righteousness, anyone who loves God, anyone willing to give their all for the “true ideal” may strike a blow for good against evil without waiting for approval from some human authority.
i. Crusade tends to extend the state of war into a permanent condition
So we see that we cannot be outright Christian pacifists and we cannot be Christian Crusaders either. So what option is left? We must look to the idea of Christian Just War Criteria, which includes both jus ad bellum (Latin meaning Law to War) and jus in bello (Latin meaning Justice in War).
Just War Criteria—Jus ad Bellum (Justify Going to War)
A. The criteria or requirements ensuring that the reasons for going to war is (are) just:
1. Must have right or legitimate authority—for Christians, in addition to civil authority, we must ask if the Scriptures bear out what we are about to do?
2. Just Cause
3. Right Intention—Trying to ultimately restore peace
4. Last Resort
5. Proportionality—Do only what is necessary to obtain the stated goals or ends
6. Reasonable Chance of Success
a. Counting the cost before building a tower (Luke 14:31). However, are there times when you are just willing to die for what is right?
7. Minimizing Negative Effects—Help rebuild when war is over
B. Moral Traces:
1. For Just Warriors—Even though I must go to war, I do not want or seek to do so.
2. For Pacifists—Sanctity of Human Life, Jesus’ turn the other cheek and peacemaker teachings etc.
C. Why Pacifists and Just Warriors need each other:
1. Both start from a presumption against violence and killing
2. Just Warriors need Pacifists to keep them in check—preventing them from becoming unlimited warriors or developing the Crusader mentality
3. Pacifists need Just Warriors to protect them and their right to be pacifists
Just War Criteria: Jus in Bello (Just behavior in War)
A. Legitimate Authority—Same as in jus ad bellum above
B. Discrimination—Asks the questions, Who may be attacked, how may they be attacked, and when may they be attacked?
1. Who: Non-combatant Immunity
a. Prohibition on the direct and intentional killing of non-combatants (Micah 6:8)
b. Who is to count as a non-combatant?
c. 4 Classifications and their status
i. Combatants—uniformed (armed) soldiers
ii. Non-combatants—civilians (unarmed)
iii. Ex-combatants—POW, sick or wounded soldiers, medics, Chaplains
iv. Unprivileged belligerents—Spies, saboteurs, command and control structures etc.
2. How and When: Rules of Engagement, Double Effect, and Perfidy
a. Rules of Engagement—Moral principles that bind conduct in war
b. Collateral Damage and the “Rule of Double Effect”—The attempt to deal with situations in which an agent foresees, but does not intend, an evil effect that will result from pursuing a good effect
i. The act must itself be either good or indifferent, or at least not forbidden with a view to preventing just the particular effect
ii. The evil effect cannot be a means to the good, but must be equally immediate or at least must result from the good effect
iii. The foreseen evil effect must not be intended or approved, merely permitted—for even a good act is vitiated if accompanied by an evil attempt
iv. There must be a proportionately serious reason for exercising the cause and allowing the evil effect.
c. Perfidy (treachery)—Dealing forthrightly with the enemy. A code of conduct. Raises the question: “On what basis should one try to limit treachery such as signing a treaty and then blowing it off when the other side disarms?”
C. Proportionality
1. The probable benefits of any particular course of action within war must outweigh the probable costs.
Christian pacifists generally hold tightly to the English translation (such as in the KJV) “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex. 20:13, KJV). However, the Hebrew language in that text and other OT passages does not bear out a strict interpretation meaning “no killing” (consider Deut. 7:1-6). Thus, the passage in Ex. 20:13 is better understood and more rightly translated as “You shall not murder” as in the NASB.
Second, Christian pacifists appeal to Jesus’ example of non-violent resistance. However, Jesus’ specific teachings on the subject indicate elements of both sides (pacifism and Just War).
a. Matt. 5:9—blessed are the peacemakers
b. Matt. 5:21-22a—anger and murder
c. Matt. 5:38-39—turn the other cheek
d. Matt. 10:34—“I did not come to bring peace… but the sword.”
e. Matt. 26:50-56—He had the ability to wage war, but did not resort to war.
Clearly Jesus’ teaching has a very pacifistic streak. However, we must consider the whole counsel of God’s Word on the subject. Consider, Rom. 13:1-7 where we understand that the state is given responsibility to “bear the sword.” This passage is generally understood to mean that God has granted the state the authority to bear the sword for the purpose of capital punishment and to make war (under certain specific circumstances). Finally, we must not forget about the rest of the story found in Rev. 19. Here we clearly see that Jesus wages war.
The problem with a strict Christian pacifist prohibition against all killing and war is that it conflicts with the fact that God commanded war (the Israelite conquest of the Promised Land and that Jesus will return as a Warrior King and wage war). Thus, a strict Christian pacifist position which claims that all war is simply wrong actually impugns God because He commanded war. The Scriptures depict three types of warfare commanded by God.
a. Unlimited Holy War (Josh. 6:21-24, 8:24-25, 10:2-40, 11:11-23)
b. Limited Warfare (Deut. 20:19-20)
c. Zealous Rebellion (Judges 6:11-7:25, 13:1-16:31)
Clearly Christians must avoid the Crusader mentality. Problems and characteristics of Crusades:
a. Crusades treat war as an unconditional effort of good vs. evil—no gray areas
b. Crusades treat war as a matter of religion
c. Crusades have little or no place for moral restraint in actions taken against enemies
d. Because good cannot compromise with evil, and because it requires “total war,” crusade has little or no place for surrender of any kind
e. Wars of crusade are fought for the purpose of imposing, achieving, or expanding ideals usually conceived on an universal or cosmological scale
f. Crusades oppose the whole social order and value system of an enemy, not just a few leading individuals, or a few narrow interests. In a war of crusade, no one can be exempted
g. In crusade, soldiers participate with zeal (i.e. suicide bombers & 9/11 terrorists, etc)
h. Crusades require no declaration of war. Anyone with zeal for righteousness, anyone who loves God, anyone willing to give their all for the “true ideal” may strike a blow for good against evil without waiting for approval from some human authority.
i. Crusade tends to extend the state of war into a permanent condition
So we see that we cannot be outright Christian pacifists and we cannot be Christian Crusaders either. So what option is left? We must look to the idea of Christian Just War Criteria, which includes both jus ad bellum (Latin meaning Law to War) and jus in bello (Latin meaning Justice in War).
Just War Criteria—Jus ad Bellum (Justify Going to War)
A. The criteria or requirements ensuring that the reasons for going to war is (are) just:
1. Must have right or legitimate authority—for Christians, in addition to civil authority, we must ask if the Scriptures bear out what we are about to do?
2. Just Cause
3. Right Intention—Trying to ultimately restore peace
4. Last Resort
5. Proportionality—Do only what is necessary to obtain the stated goals or ends
6. Reasonable Chance of Success
a. Counting the cost before building a tower (Luke 14:31). However, are there times when you are just willing to die for what is right?
7. Minimizing Negative Effects—Help rebuild when war is over
B. Moral Traces:
1. For Just Warriors—Even though I must go to war, I do not want or seek to do so.
2. For Pacifists—Sanctity of Human Life, Jesus’ turn the other cheek and peacemaker teachings etc.
C. Why Pacifists and Just Warriors need each other:
1. Both start from a presumption against violence and killing
2. Just Warriors need Pacifists to keep them in check—preventing them from becoming unlimited warriors or developing the Crusader mentality
3. Pacifists need Just Warriors to protect them and their right to be pacifists
Just War Criteria: Jus in Bello (Just behavior in War)
A. Legitimate Authority—Same as in jus ad bellum above
B. Discrimination—Asks the questions, Who may be attacked, how may they be attacked, and when may they be attacked?
1. Who: Non-combatant Immunity
a. Prohibition on the direct and intentional killing of non-combatants (Micah 6:8)
b. Who is to count as a non-combatant?
c. 4 Classifications and their status
i. Combatants—uniformed (armed) soldiers
ii. Non-combatants—civilians (unarmed)
iii. Ex-combatants—POW, sick or wounded soldiers, medics, Chaplains
iv. Unprivileged belligerents—Spies, saboteurs, command and control structures etc.
2. How and When: Rules of Engagement, Double Effect, and Perfidy
a. Rules of Engagement—Moral principles that bind conduct in war
b. Collateral Damage and the “Rule of Double Effect”—The attempt to deal with situations in which an agent foresees, but does not intend, an evil effect that will result from pursuing a good effect
i. The act must itself be either good or indifferent, or at least not forbidden with a view to preventing just the particular effect
ii. The evil effect cannot be a means to the good, but must be equally immediate or at least must result from the good effect
iii. The foreseen evil effect must not be intended or approved, merely permitted—for even a good act is vitiated if accompanied by an evil attempt
iv. There must be a proportionately serious reason for exercising the cause and allowing the evil effect.
c. Perfidy (treachery)—Dealing forthrightly with the enemy. A code of conduct. Raises the question: “On what basis should one try to limit treachery such as signing a treaty and then blowing it off when the other side disarms?”
C. Proportionality
1. The probable benefits of any particular course of action within war must outweigh the probable costs.
Steven2006
New Member
Bible-boy said:The problem with a strict Christian pacifist prohibition against all killing and war is that it conflicts with the fact that God commanded war (the Israelite conquest of the Promised Land and that Jesus will return as a Warrior King and wage war). Thus, a strict Christian pacifist position which claims that all war is simply wrong actually impugns God because He commanded war.
.
I would agree that if God commanded us to fight we should.
Steven2006 said:I would agree that if God commanded us to fight we should.
Well in fact He has commanded war in the past (Josh. 6:21-24, 8:24-25, 10:2-40, 11:11-23), He also commands us to wage war in the present (Mark 12:30-31), and He has given our Civil governments authority to wage war (Rom. 13:1-7), and clearly Jesus will wage war in the future (Rev. 19).
Now I know you going to ask how in the world I came to the conclusion that God commands us to wage war in the present based upon Mark 12:30-31.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; this is the first commandment. And the second is like namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these" (Mark 12:30-31).
It comes from the principle of neighbor love in that passage. If my neighbor is wrongfully attacked (meaning he is not the aggressor), defenseless, and/or helpless to defend himself then the most loving thing I can do (as I would for myself) is to go to his aid (going to war if necessary to defend the weak and the helpless).
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Steven2006
New Member
Bible-boy said:Well in fact He has commanded war in the past (Josh. 6:21-24, 8:24-25, 10:2-40, 11:11-23), He also commands us to wage war in the present (Mark 12:30-31), and He has given our Civil governments authority to wage war (Rom. 13:1-7), and clearly Jesus will wage war in the future (Rev. 19).
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Wars of today are not commanded by God, but by man. What if you have two Christian brothers each living in a sperate countries that go to war. Surely you cannot think it is Gods command that one brother might kill another?
Look even though I could not do so, I am not judging others if they choose to serve, I would only suggest they pray about it and consider what the bible says, not what man says. But I don't think you can claim that we are currently being commanded by God to fight, with that I would have to take exception.
Steven2006
New Member
Bible-boy said:[
It comes from the principle of neighbor love in that passage. If my neighbor is wrongfully attacked (meaning he is not the aggressor), defenseless, and/or helpless to defend himself then the most loving thing I can do (as I would for myself) is to go to his aid (going to war if necessary to defend the weak and the helpless).
While an admirable ideal, rarely are wars fought just for that reason. I would even go further and say if that is the criteria, there have been many wars that should have been fought and were not.
Funny that you explain away clear verse in the bible commanding us to love our enemies, but you interpret Love thy neighbor as killing on his behalf. I do think we should stand up for the oppressed, probably more so than I see us doing. But there are ways to try and do that and still not kill on ones behalf.
Christian Soldiers
All able Christian men should serve in the military, if not by choice then by force. Freedom has always required blood shed, and Christians should know that better than anyone. Our very right to openly worship Christ depends on men who put their lives on the line to kill the enemy. These same enemies would like to see every one of us bow to their god.
Don't get too confident in your view that O.T. war was any different than war today. The men who went to fight followed the direction of their leader. God doesn't have to tell any of us who He wants our country to attack. As far as I am concerned He told my President, and I will follow because it is my duty as an American, and as a Christian.
All able Christian men should serve in the military, if not by choice then by force. Freedom has always required blood shed, and Christians should know that better than anyone. Our very right to openly worship Christ depends on men who put their lives on the line to kill the enemy. These same enemies would like to see every one of us bow to their god.
Don't get too confident in your view that O.T. war was any different than war today. The men who went to fight followed the direction of their leader. God doesn't have to tell any of us who He wants our country to attack. As far as I am concerned He told my President, and I will follow because it is my duty as an American, and as a Christian.
Steven2006
New Member
Warhound said:All able Christian men should serve in the military, if not by choice then by force. .
WOW, I really don't have anything to say to that. We will just have to agree to disagree.
North Carolina Tentmaker
New Member
I appreciate your zeal warhound but have to disagree. As this thread has shown there are some pacifist Christians that really should not serve in the military. The United States has a long history of respecting the religious views of pacifists and allowing them to serve in non-combat areas. The truth is there are some men and women I would not want to share a foxhole with. If they hesitate before pulling the trigger they put my life at risk, and if the moral dilemma they seem to face is going to haunt them afterwards they may come back from combat unable to function in society. I am glad we have a volunteer army where only those who wish to serve are compelled to.