Should a pastor be permitted to have a beer once in while?

[annsni]

Perhaps someone needs to inform that proud, unforgiving man that his posts are not being read...not by me any longer. And until he admits flinging insults and reveals some humility then this circumstance will remain.

Interesting that you know that a member posted to you - and yet you refuse to answer saying that you are ignoring him. It really reveals the attitude one has towards fellow believers in Christ and a certain immaturity.

 

[annsni]

No. It was wine. The "it was grape juice" argument is an argument without any merit.

The Greek word translated "wine" is (οινος, οινουo, οινω) oinos, which was the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic.

The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is the same word for the wine the wedding feast ran out of.

The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol.

Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of oinos in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol.

There is simply no solid historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

There are thirteen original Hebrew and Greek words for "wine" in our English Bible. How can we know which one means fermented wine? To find the answer, do not go to Aristotle or Pliny, but go to the Bible itself. By comparing its usage, the scriptural meaning of wine can be defined.

One of the original Hebrew words for wine is "yayin." This word is first used in Genesis 9:21 where Noah "drank of the wine and was drunken." This wine caused drunkenness! Was it just grape juice? Uh, no!

In Genesis 14:18 we read of Melchizedek – a type of Jesus Christ, or possibly even a Christophany – who "brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God." God Himself, in the person of Melchizedek, gave wine to Abraham. And again, the original Hebrew word was "yayin" which always means fermented wine. This same Hebrew word is used in Amos 9:14 speaking of the coming Millennium where the people will "plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof." They will drink the same kind of wine that Noah drank and became drunk by overindulgence.

In the New Testament, one original Greek word for wine is oinos. Proof that it is alcoholic is given in the story of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan poured oil and wine on the man’s wounds (Luke 10:34), showing that the wine had enough alcoholic content to be used as an antiseptic. Would you pour grape juice on a wound?

The Greek word oinos is also used in John 2 where Jesus turned water into wine by a divine miracle. It is used in 1 Timothy 5:23, the command of Paul, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities." This Greek word is also used in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine wherein is excess."

If God wanted to say "grape juice" He would have done so, just as He did in Acts 2:13 "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

The words "new wine" are translated from the Greek word γλευκους (gleukos).

God is not an idiot. Had He wanted to say "grape juice" he would have said "grape juice" (γλευκους), but He didn't. He said (οινος) fermented, alcoholic wine, just like Paul cautioned about in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine . . . " (οινω).

Very excellent post Tom. Oh and with me quoting it, I believe certain people who have certain people on ignore will be able to read it. What we see this person posting is clearly unsupported opinion but in this post of yours Tom, you address the truth and reality of what the Scriptures actually say. Thank you.

 

[Calypsis4]

Interesting that you know that a member posted to you - and yet you refuse to answer saying that you are ignoring him. It really reveals the attitude one has towards fellow believers in Christ and a certain immaturity.

Attitude? I am attempting to eliminate any further conflict with one who is too proud to say he is sorry for flinging insults at another who merely stated his position in no uncertain terms. If he apologizes then the matter is at an end....just like Christ commanded.

Your prejudices are sticking out like a sore thumb, friend.

P.S. His position is a lie and I am not the only one who has revealed this truth from the scriptures, from science, and from the legal definitions of fermentation/intoxication. He will answer for it in due season.

 

[TCassidy]

I believe certain people who have certain people on ignore will be able to read it.

But it won't do any good. He doesn't care what the bible says. He knows what he knows and he refuses to be corrected by facts from the bible.

 

[TCassidy]

Since there are so many version of the Bible out there maybe his version says grape juice?... Your guess is as good as mine.

There are two textforms, the Alexandrian and the Byzantine. Both read οινοσ for "wine" and γλευκους for "new wine" as found in Acts.

This is not a matter of translation. This is a matter of the inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God in Greek.

 

[Calypsis4]

annsni, Except what alternatives were there? Not many. They could have grape juice at the grape harvest but grape juice without refrigeration quickly turns. They didn't have Welch's back then.

Why don't you try being honest about it? BOTH fermented and unfermented wine existed THROUGHOUT the entire ages of biblical time. It took time for wine to degenerate into an intoxicating drink so what people drank BEFORE that process made it harmful was ............(guess what?) grape juice. That's why Jesus called it 'the fruit of the vine' at the Lord's supper. That designation was NOT accidental. There is nothing that Jesus did that was accidental.

Concerning His transformation of water to wine at Cana........do you actually believe that the Lord Jesus Christ created an intoxicating beverage so that the people at the wedding would get EVEN MORE DRUNK than (according to many of your persuasion) they already were in the first place? Considering that it was Word of God that placed a curse on those who cause their brothers to get drunk then it is akin to blasphemy to suggest such a thing.

The Bible plainly tells us that drunkards will not enter in the kingdom of heaven(I Corinth. 6:10); so you think that Christ would contribute to the very thing that would/will send drinkers to hell fire?

Had Eli seen Hannah drink? I don't know. Her behavior was such that he thought her drunk. Did people look at Jesus and see His behavior and think Him drunk because of that? I see no evidence in Scripture to support that. They accused him of being a drunkard because they SAW Him drink.

Yes, they saw Him drink. So you agree with the wicked pharisees that he was drinking fermented wine. Do you also agree with them that Jesus was a glutton? Yes/no (I don't think you've answered that question yet) The only answer to this question has to be 'no' on both counts. Why? Because fermented wines/liquors are intoxicating and corrupt and the Son of God would not and could not come in contact with corruption of any kind.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

[annsni]

Attitude? I am attempting to eliminate any further conflict with one who is too proud to say he is sorry for flinging insults at another who merely stated his position in no uncertain terms. If he apologizes then the matter is at an end....just like Christ commanded.

Your prejudices are sticking out like a sore thumb, friend.

P.S. His position is a lie and I am not the only one who has revealed this truth from the scriptures, from science, and from the legal definitions of fermentation/intoxication. He will answer for it in due season.

How will you know if he apologizes if he is on ignore?

 

[annsni]

annsni, Except what alternatives were there? Not many. They could have grape juice at the grape harvest but grape juice without refrigeration quickly turns. They didn't have Welch's back then.

Why don't you try being honest about it? BOTH fermented and unfermented wine existed THROUGHOUT the entire ages of biblical time. It took time for wine to degenerate into an intoxicating drink so what people drank BEFORE that process made it harmful was ............(guess what?) grape juice. That's why Jesus called it 'the fruit of the vine' at the Lord's supper. That designation was NOT accidental. There is nothing that Jesus did that was accidental.

Concerning His transformation of water to wine at Cana........do you actually believe that the Lord Jesus Christ created an intoxicating beverage so that the people at the wedding would get EVEN MORE DRUNK than (according to many of your persuasion) they already were in the first place? Considering that it was Word of God that placed a curse on those who cause their brothers to get drunk then it is akin to blasphemy to suggest such a thing.

The Bible plainly tells us that drunkards will not enter in the kingdom of heaven(I Corinth. 6:10); so you think that Christ would contribute to the very thing that would/will send drinkers to hell fire?

Had Eli seen Hannah drink? I don't know. Her behavior was such that he thought her drunk. Did people look at Jesus and see His behavior and think Him drunk because of that? I see no evidence in Scripture to support that. They accused him of being a drunkard because they SAW Him drink.

Yes, they saw Him drink. So you agree with the wicked pharisees that he was drinking fermented wine. Do you also agree with them that Jesus was a glutton? Yes/no (I don't think you've answered that question yet) The only answer to this question has to be 'no' on both counts. Why? Because fermented wines/liquors are intoxicating and corrupt and the Son of God would not and could not come in contact with corruption of any kind.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The Scriptures are clear as Tom has pointed out. What you have come up with is conjecture that does not stand with the historical, Biblical or scientific record. I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong.

 

[Calypsis4]

The Scriptures are clear as Tom has pointed out. What you have come up with is conjecture that does not stand with the historical, Biblical or scientific record. I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong.

You are not telling the truth. Our argument on this matter is exceedingly strong and the Holy Spirit never leads contrary to His Word. If you wish to defend the drinking of intoxicating beverages (wine in particular) then that is your choice but you will bear the responsibility rejecting the truth that has been so plainly laid before you.

Concerning your comrade in error: just please let it go. If he really wants to apologize for his deliberate insults then he knows how to reach me. I'm an easy forgiver.

I believe we've covered the bases here. Best wishes to you.

 

[matt wade]

You are not telling the truth. Our argument on this matter is exceedingly strong and the Holy Spirit never leads contrary to His Word. If you wish to defend the drinking of intoxicating beverages (wine in particular) then that is your choice but you will bear the responsibility rejecting the truth that has been so plainly laid before you.

Concerning your comrade in error: just please let it go. If he really wants to apologize for his deliberate insults then he knows how to reach me. I'm an easy forgiver.

I believe we've covered the bases here. Best wishes to you.

Maybe you are being led by other than the Hold Spirit?

 

[agedman]

The ONLY reason I am returning to this thread to post is because (imo) Cassidy has put forth what I consider a biased view of what the Scriptures teach.

It is (imo) important that readers and posters are presented with a more factual account than given.

I am NOT going to go into other Scriptures, but rely totally upon that Cassidy offered, and make (imo) the corrections to the view he presented.

Please, folks, I highly regard Cassidy, and am not desiring to draw swords with him, rather I am attempting to bring a bit of balance to a thread that seeks (imo) to excuse.

No. It was wine. The "it was grape juice" argument is an argument without any merit.

Only because YOU deem it without merit. There is NO Scripture support for such a statement.

The Greek word translated "wine" is (οινος, οινουo, οινω) oinos, which was the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic.

This is mere smoke and mirrors, Cassidy. You and I both know that the Greek word does not distinguish between that which is fermented and that which is yet fermented. One must always consider the context for how the word is used.

The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is the same word for the wine the wedding feast ran out of.

The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol.

Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of oinos in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol.

There is simply no solid historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

You are supposedly relying upon such arguments and contentions, but frankly, the historical / cultural records of the ancients were mostly written by folks who found pleasure in perverted religions in which intoxication and excess were part of the worship.

There are thirteen original Hebrew and Greek words for "wine" in our English Bible. How can we know which one means fermented wine? To find the answer, do not go to Aristotle or Pliny, but go to the Bible itself. By comparing its usage, the scriptural meaning of wine can be defined.

Which you have not done, but make a blanket statement at all "wine" in the Scriptures is fermented.

At least you are correct that the ONLY determiner is actually "its usage, the scriptureal meaning of wine can be defined."

One of the original Hebrew words for wine is "yayin." This word is first used in Genesis 9:21 where Noah "drank of the wine and was drunken." This wine caused drunkenness! Was it just grape juice? Uh, no!

In Genesis 14:18 we read of Melchizedek – a type of Jesus Christ, or possibly even a Christophany – who "brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God." God Himself, in the person of Melchizedek, gave wine to Abraham. And again, the original Hebrew word was "yayin" which always means fermented wine. This same Hebrew word is used in Amos 9:14 speaking of the coming Millennium where the people will "plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof." They will drink the same kind of wine that Noah drank and became drunk by overindulgence.

The Hebrew word meaning is: grape, wine, fruit of the vine. There is NO mark indicating the fermentation or alcoholic state.

In CONTEXT used for Noah certainly it is used as a fermented beverage because of the end result.
The word may not carry that meaning in the context found in Genesis 14:18, nor in Amos 9:14.

Certainly, it might, and it just as well could not. Depends on what the reader "reads into" what is read.

In the New Testament, one original Greek word for wine is oinos. Proof that it is alcoholic is given in the story of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan poured oil and wine on the man’s wounds (Luke 10:34), showing that the wine had enough alcoholic content to be used as an antiseptic. Would you pour grape juice on a wound?

The Greek word oinos is also used in John 2 where Jesus turned water into wine by a divine miracle. It is used in 1 Timothy 5:23, the command of Paul, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities." This Greek word is also used in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine wherein is excess."

If God wanted to say "grape juice" He would have done so, just as He did in Acts 2:13 "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

The words "new wine" are translated from the Greek word γλευκους (gleukos).

God is not an idiot. Had He wanted to say "grape juice" he would have said "grape juice" (γλευκους), but He didn't. He said (οινος) fermented, alcoholic wine, just like Paul cautioned about in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine . . . " (οινω).

This is really strange, Cassidy.

Here (Acts 2) you have the heathen claiming that the folks are drunk and specifically on "new (sweet) wine." Yet you contend that is "grape juice!"

You are most inconsistent and contending for a view that is one sided.

If you are going to go to the languages, then it is wise to state accurately that one must always place the use of the drink in context to determine the meaning. Unlike many other words, the use of wine in the context of one verse does not always carry the meaning and weight to other verses.

 

[TCassidy]

Yet you contend that is "grape juice!"

I did not contend it was grape juice. God did. They were being mocked. "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine." Mocking. "These guys are drunk on soda pop!" Mocking. The Greek word is γλευκους, gleukos, sugar.

Thayer says: the sweet juice pressed from the grape. Must.

from γλυκύς glukus meaning sweet, fresh.

Must (from the Latin vinum mustum, "young wine") is freshly pressed fruit juice (usually grape juice). Because of its high glucose content, typically between 10 and 15%, must is also used as a sweetener in a variety of cuisines.

If you've got a problem with that you will have to take it up with God.

 

[righteousdude2]

The ONLY reason I am returning to this thread to post is because (imo) Cassidy has put forth what I consider a biased view of what the Scriptures teach. .

THANK YOU for pointing this out! This brother is very good at bias, or shall we say, spinning the scripture to be what he believes and leaving no room for others to have an opinion! When we give an opinion, Ted loves to do one thing and that is to insinuate your ignorance of the scripture!

He will in fact be schooled in heaven like the rest of us, and guess what, we all get to be there and see him taken to task by the Master. I look forward to the day when the mysteries of the scripture are revealed to all of us!

 

[Rolfe]

When we give an opinion, Ted loves to do one thing and that is to insinuate your ignorance of the scripture!

I would think that getting one's name right when railing on him would be considered common courtesy.

On the other hand, repeatedly getting it wrong could be considered a veiled insult.

 

[Zaac]

I would think that getting one's name right when railing on him would be considered common courtesy.

On the other hand, repeatedly getting it wrong could be considered a veiled insult.

He's not GETTING anything wrong. He's doing it out of disrespect.

 

[TCassidy]

He's not GETTING anything wrong. He's doing it out of disrespect.

I can't help but think he is mentally unbalanced. Just pity him, and pray for him.

 

[righteousdude2]

I can't help but think he is mentally unbalanced. Just pity him, and pray for him.

Wow! I love the way you can change hats! From all knowing theologian to a psychiatrist! You are so multi-talented, Ted, that I cease to be amazed with your gifts! You just saved me a lot of money with your DSM-5 diagnosis.

Have you been forced to register your mind as a weapon? You are so sharp, I'll bet you're not allowed within fifty feet of the Goodyear blimp! Roflmao

 

[Zaac]

Wow! I love the way you can change hats! From all knowing theologian to a psychiatrist! You are so multi-talented, Ted, that I cease to be amazed with your gifts! You just saved me a lot of money with your DSM-5 diagnosis.

Have you been forced to register your mind as a weapon? You are so sharp, I'll bet you're not allowed within fifty feet of the Goodyear blimp! Roflmao

Yep, pure disrespect.

 

[TCassidy]

Yep, pure disrespect.

Just ignore him. He is unbalanced. One does not criticize a sick man.

 

[righteousdude2]

Just ignore him. He is unbalanced. One does not criticize a sick man.

You're right. I have no right criticizing you Tom.