Mikey
Active Member
Short answer is yes. I have attended multiple churches where there are Arminians and Calvinists (and those who are undecided).
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Should Arminians and Calvinists Attend the Same Church?
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
- Start date
Short answer is yes. I have attended multiple churches where there are Arminians and Calvinists (and those who are undecided).
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I see the problem being lack of teaching about both positions . The history, its origins , beliefs ect . Most just see there is only these two options . Most dont care .
Our last church was like this ( im neither a calvinist nor Arminain) The problem was the teaching was confusing. One week you can lose your salvation, the following week you cannot . One week its irresistible grace ,the next time its previenient. We would have mixed speakers . We would also have guest speakers come and some would point our the errors of Calvinism . The next speaker would come down on Arminsm . Flip flopping with the differnt teachers within the same church and the same elders. One week the Gosepl is Acts 2.38 other times its John 6.44 . Limited atonement then unlimited. Election = foreknowledge v Election = determined , and on and on .
Mikey
Active Member
Provisionism is rare/nonexistent outside America from my experience.
Why would you go there?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Steven,
I'm going to revise my initial posts to state this:
I would attend a gathering of believers under one roof whose understanding did not match mine, if I believed that the contents of this passage were to ever become a reality:
" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16, AV ).
Do you understand what I'm getting at?
I hope so.
I'll post it again in a translation that may be easier for you to read ( though I don't prefer using it ):
" And He Himself gave some [to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16, NKJV ).
Put me in a place where that is actually happening, and I'll be there every time that they get together.
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
do you mean why did I go there ? Well this is before I understood Calvinsm and Arminianism
Steven,
I'm going to revise my initial posts to state this:
I would attend a gathering of believers under one roof whose understanding did not match mine, if I believed that the contents of this passage were to ever become a reality:
" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16, AV ).
Do you understand what I'm getting at?
I hope so.
I'll post it again in a translation that may be easier for you to read ( though I don't prefer using it ):
" And He Himself gave some [to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16, NKJV ).
Put me in a place where that is actually happening, and I'll be there every time that they get together.
You make perfect sense.
Should Christians fellowship together or should we form up into differing camps because we are unable to come to a common understanding of scripture?
Cults preach isolationism because those holding differing views hold Satanic views.
Do any of the advocates of isolationism know what the concept of unity of spirit even means? It certainly is not discussed like the TULIP is. Are we without excuse, because God has made the concept clear to us?
Cults preach isolationism because those holding differing views hold Satanic views.
Do any of the advocates of isolationism know what the concept of unity of spirit even means? It certainly is not discussed like the TULIP is. Are we without excuse, because God has made the concept clear to us?
I have been attending a Baptist church for over a decade, and this issue between cals and non cals only come up in sunday school /cell groups never from the Pulpit!Steven,
I'm going to revise my initial posts to state this:
I would attend a gathering of believers under one roof whose understanding did not match mine, if I believed that the contents of this passage were to ever become a reality:
" And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16, AV ).
Do you understand what I'm getting at?
I hope so.
I'll post it again in a translation that may be easier for you to read ( though I don't prefer using it ):
" And He Himself gave some [to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:11-16, NKJV ).
Put me in a place where that is actually happening, and I'll be there every time that they get together.
When a person deliberately misrepresents truth, does that lead to unity of spirit, or is it truth that adherence to truth unifies us in spirit?
If so, doctrines that deny scripture create factions.
37818
Well-Known Member
So a New Testament Christian was Protestant before any church called themselves catholic.
well, they held to reformed theology before ever was a reformation!
Of course God's children should commune together in unity. Every child of God is a corrupt sinner, saved by God's gracious favor. As such, we bear each other's flaws and encourage one another to grow in faith. Let iron sharpen iron.
37818
Well-Known Member
This will depend on individuals and the church leadership.
Sounds interesting, please explain.
37818
Well-Known Member
As an individual one should never be divisive on secondary teachings which are not essentials to the New Testament faith. Just do not join a church if a secondary issue you do not agree with is a part of that church's statement of faith.
How much of an issue do the pastors and elders make of this? Is it required to officially declare one way or the other for membership?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Irrelevant as there was no designation at that point.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Going over some old threads...
@Steven Yeadon ...
I'd like to use some quotes from someone who opposes God alone choosing sinners to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), to demonstrate how hard it would be to assemble in fellowship with those who don't share agreement.
The problem, in my opinion, can clearly be seen based on fundamental differences regarding how someone reads and understands the Scriptures...
Especially the ones that deal specifically with how salvation is actually accomplished by the Lord:
Justification is specifically mentioned in verse 30.
The largest part of justification, or being made just by God ( Romans 8:33 ), is the fact that believers are justified by His blood ( Romans 5:9 ).
That blood was shed at the cross and was spoken of by the Lord as having already happened because it was a sure thing ( Matthew 26:27-28, Mark 14:23-24, Luke 22:20, and the fulfillment of prophecy ( Isaiah 53 ).
So,
Just because there is no direct reference in the passage itself, does not mean that Christ's atonement is not included there.
Again as in other threads regarding this subject,
Only those that were foreknown will ever have the benefits of any of the rest.
" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 )
Breaking it down according to the words,
I see that from God's perspective as revealed in the passage...
One must be foreknown to be predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.
One must be predestinated in order to be "called"...
One must be "called" in order to be justified;
And one cannot be glorified unless they are made partakers of all the rest.
In addition, those spoken here are individuals that make up a group,
indicated by the usage of the words, "whom" and them".
Basically put and according to this passage...
Them that love God are described as those that were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified.
Outside of that, no one truly loves God.
Therefore, disagreement over this one passage would constitute a barrier to unity,
and the subject of where to establish sound doctrine within the body would stall out and revert to a "lowest common denominator" of sorts.
Truth, no matter which "side" is correct, would inevitably be cast aside in favor of unity.
Either one assembles together in a group that is characterized as the pillar and ground of the truth ( 1 Timothy 3:15 ), or one does not.
Either one worships God in Spirit and in truth ( John 4:24 ), or one does not.
@Steven Yeadon ...
I'd like to use some quotes from someone who opposes God alone choosing sinners to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), to demonstrate how hard it would be to assemble in fellowship with those who don't share agreement.
The problem, in my opinion, can clearly be seen based on fundamental differences regarding how someone reads and understands the Scriptures...
Especially the ones that deal specifically with how salvation is actually accomplished by the Lord:
To respond to this statement from my own understanding of the Scriptures,
Justification is specifically mentioned in verse 30.
The largest part of justification, or being made just by God ( Romans 8:33 ), is the fact that believers are justified by His blood ( Romans 5:9 ).
That blood was shed at the cross and was spoken of by the Lord as having already happened because it was a sure thing ( Matthew 26:27-28, Mark 14:23-24, Luke 22:20, and the fulfillment of prophecy ( Isaiah 53 ).
So,
Just because there is no direct reference in the passage itself, does not mean that Christ's atonement is not included there.
Again as in other threads regarding this subject,
Only those that were foreknown will ever have the benefits of any of the rest.
" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 )
Breaking it down according to the words,
I see that from God's perspective as revealed in the passage...
One must be foreknown to be predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.
One must be predestinated in order to be "called"...
One must be "called" in order to be justified;
And one cannot be glorified unless they are made partakers of all the rest.
In addition, those spoken here are individuals that make up a group,
indicated by the usage of the words, "whom" and them".
Basically put and according to this passage...
Them that love God are described as those that were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified.
Outside of that, no one truly loves God.
Therefore, disagreement over this one passage would constitute a barrier to unity,
and the subject of where to establish sound doctrine within the body would stall out and revert to a "lowest common denominator" of sorts.
Truth, no matter which "side" is correct, would inevitably be cast aside in favor of unity.
Either one assembles together in a group that is characterized as the pillar and ground of the truth ( 1 Timothy 3:15 ), or one does not.
Either one worships God in Spirit and in truth ( John 4:24 ), or one does not.
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