Should Christians call themselves Calvinists?

[Winman]

See, I see in Scripture that man cannot hear God in his sinful nature - we must have a nature change in order to be able to respond to Him. When we have that nature change, we WANT to respond to Him in a way that we never thought we would before.

Did Adam hear God calling after he had sinned and was dead in sins?

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

See, when you say that unregenerate dead men cannot hear God, you are also limiting God's power. You are saying that God does not have the power to speak to the dead.

I say God DOES have the power to speak to the dead, and that is exactly what the scriptures show.

 

[quantumfaith]

See, I see in Scripture that man cannot hear God in his sinful nature - we must have a nature change in order to be able to respond to Him. When we have that nature change, we WANT to respond to Him in a way that we never thought we would before.

Adam heard him

 

[quantumfaith]

When our natures are changed, our will follows.

I agree? When we are "born again (from above), our desires begin to change. But it remains still a life long battle.

 

[quantumfaith]

Off topic, here is a link to our last weeks message by Andy Stanley. "Make Believe Christmas" Excellent, honest and genuine message. Hope you might enjoy as did I.

http://www.wiregrasschurch.org/media/watch-online/make-believe-christmas/

 

[Winman]

That the unregenerate can hear God when he calls is shown in Proverbs.

Prov 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

The scriptures do not show the unregenerate unable to respond to God, they show the unregenerate refuse to respond to God. Huge difference.

And notice verse 28, God says the unregenerate will call upon him, they shall seek him, but he will not answer or be found of them.

So, the problem with the unregenerate is not that they are unable to respond to God, the problem is they REFUSE to respond to God.

 

[CF1]

This is what kills me about Calvinism, they will say things like "Total Depravity does not mean we are as bad as we could be". Well, why not?

Here is an interesting study of words on being Good and doing Good.

Luke 18:19 (New American Standard Bible)
19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Romans 14:23 (New American Standard Bible)
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

I think what Calvinists mean, when they say "Total Depravity does not mean we are as bad as we could be", is that even though we do not sin as bad as the worst sinner we can think of, like Hitler or Nero, we still don't have the ability to please God. Even when we do works that appear to be good on the surface they are not acceptable, like Cain's offering was rejected and Abel's was accepted, because Abel's sacrifice was done God's way. Cain's looked pretty "good" to a sinner. But it was not of faith, and thus sin.

 

[ituttut]

Did Adam hear God calling after he had sinned and was dead in sins?

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

See, when you say that unregenerate dead men cannot hear God, you are also limiting God's power. You are saying that God does not have the power to speak to the dead.

I say God DOES have the power to speak to the dead, and that is exactly what the scriptures show.

Don't believe I'm telling you anything you may not know, but also we can go further. Jesus also went to hell to speak to them, and His Word today speaks to all, for we are all dead in our sins, until we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[CF1]

So, the problem with the unregenerate is not that they are unable to respond to God, the problem is they REFUSE to respond to God.

Which comes first?

refusing causes unable
or
unable causes refusing

dead in sins causes unable
dead in sins causes refusing

I'm not sure if it matters. Either way, we were dead in sin. Dead is dead.

 

[Winman]

Here is an interesting study of words on being Good and doing Good.

Luke 18:19 (New American Standard Bible)
19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Romans 14:23 (New American Standard Bible)
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

I think what Calvinists mean, when they say "Total Depravity does not mean we are as bad as we could be", is that even though we do not sin as bad as the worst sinner we can think of, like Hitler or Nero, we still don't have the ability to please God. Even when we do works that appear to be good on the surface they are not acceptable, like Cain's offering was rejected and Abel's was accepted, because Abel's sacrifice was done God's way. Cain's looked pretty "good" to a sinner. But it was not of faith, and thus sin.

Well, when you throw around words like "total" some folks get the idea that you are talking about 100% depraved. Calvinism seems to redefine a lot of words from their ordinary definition, and then accuses non-Cals of not understanding their doctrine. No kidding?

Look, when a mother runs into a burning building to save her children without a care for herself, that is good. They are actually following the teachings of Jesus when they do that. They are giving up their life for another as he gave his life for us. I actually know a man who entered his burning house to try to save his young son and was burnt severely. He spent several months in the hospital for 3rd degree burns.

Funny you mention Cain, because we know that Cain was lost in the NT. So he could not be elect according to Calvinism and could never have been enabled to do good. But God himself said he could do well, and if he did so God said he would be accepted. Does God accept evil?

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

If Calvinsim is true, then God was pretty mixed up when he spoke to Cain. He must have forgotten that Cain was not elect and incapable of doing any truly good thing. And God also made the mistake of saying he would accept Cain's sacrifice, which in no way could be good.

What do you think? Does God accept evil? If not, then how could he accept Cain's sacrifice being Cain was unelect?

 

[annsni]

That the unregenerate can hear God when he calls is shown in Proverbs.

Prov 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

The scriptures do not show the unregenerate unable to respond to God, they show the unregenerate refuse to respond to God. Huge difference.

And notice verse 28, God says the unregenerate will call upon him, they shall seek him, but he will not answer or be found of them.

So, the problem with the unregenerate is not that they are unable to respond to God, the problem is they REFUSE to respond to God.

Why do you use a scripture that is speaking of wisdom to speak about God?

 

[Amy.G]

Which comes first?

refusing causes unable
or
unable causes refusing

dead in sins causes unable
dead in sins causes refusing

I'm not sure if it matters. Either way, we were dead in sin. Dead is dead.

According to God, the refusing comes first.

Romans 1:21 Because, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Romans 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Psalms 81:11-12 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would have none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 And with all deception of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be condemned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Winman]

Why do you use a scripture that is speaking of wisdom to speak about God?

Oh, when God says "when your destruction cometh as a whirlwind", he was only speaking about wisdom?

You know, debating with you Calvinists is a pure joke. You guys simply will not come clean.

 

[quantumfaith]

Why do you use a scripture that is speaking of wisdom to speak about God?

If my memory serves me correctly, it is known as a "duble entendre" (sp. I am really unsure about)

 

[The Archangel]

Oh, when God says "when your destruction cometh as a whirlwind", he was only speaking about wisdom?

You know, debating with you Calvinists is a pure joke. You guys simply will not come clean.

Annsni is correct. You have attributed words to God that the author of Proverbs attributes to Wisdom. It is not an uncommon thing for an author to write with "wisdom" as a personification.

Nevertheless, "Wisdom" is saying "when your destruction comes like a whirlwind" it will be too late to heed the warnings of wisdom.

And, in this case, it is not "us Calvinists" that are not coming clean. Ann called you on something and you still will not come clean. Sad.

The Archangel

 

[annsni]

Oh, when God says "when your destruction cometh as a whirlwind", he was only speaking about wisdom?

You know, debating with you Calvinists is a pure joke. You guys simply will not come clean.

It's a joke to read what Scripture actually says??

20 Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22"How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools hate knowledge?
23"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24"Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25And you neglected all my counsel
And did not want my reproof;
26I will also laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your dread comes,
27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
30"They would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.
31"So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way
And be satiated with their own devices.
32"For the waywardness of the naive will kill them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
33"But he who listens to me shall live securely
And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

from the NASB

Notice who is shouting out and then the quotes. I think it's quite clear.

 

[Winman]

I don't know how you guys can live with yourself. You know for a certainty that this wisdom is God's word.

I should have included verse 23, the verse just before this passage.

Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Who is speaking here? Who will pour out his spirit unto us? Whose words is the author speaking of?

Like I said, you guys will not come clean.

 

[quantumfaith]

It's a joke to read what Scripture actually says??



from the NASB

Notice who is shouting out and then the quotes. I think it's quite clear.

Who or what is wisdom? Who is the author of wisdom?

 

[annsni]

I don't know how you guys can live with yourself. You know for a certainty that this wisdom is God's word.

I should have included verse 23, the verse just before this passage.

Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Who is speaking here? Who will pour out his spirit unto us? Whose words is the author speaking of?

Like I said, you guys will not come clean.

It's no use arguing with someone who just won't read the text.

 

[The Archangel]

I don't know how you guys can live with yourself. You know for a certainty that this wisdom is God's word.

I should have included verse 23, the verse just before this passage.

Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Who is speaking here? Who will pour out his spirit unto us? Whose words is the author speaking of?

Like I said, you guys will not come clean.

I keep forgetting that I'm arguing with someone who will not read the text.

If you look at Proverbs 1:20-33, you will see that "Wisdom" is personified and it is "she" that is talking. This is a common rhetorical tactic in many cultures.

Furthermore, you need to realize that Proverbs has different hermeneutical rules, which you are unable or unwilling to accept.

Once more, we see you probably have a Bible search program, you find the words you think support your position, and you post them, without any consideration of context whatsoever.

This is like trying to argue with an ostrich that has its head buried in the dirt.

This only serves to re-enforce my earlier assertion: You simply are not worth the keystrokes.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

It's no use arguing with someone who just won't read the text.

I did read it, and I asked you a question. Who is it that pours his spirit unto us? Who is speaking when it says "I will make known my words unto you"?

You know, I should heed God's word.

Prov 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.